New theory about home ownership

[Tom7227]

After spending some time reading questions in a home improvement forum I have decided that there needs to be an additional component in the equation of income needed to own a home. I will call it the “Skills to Income Ratio”. Of course this is in addition to the ratio of money needed to make the house payment which used to be having 30% of your income go to housing.

There has always been the issue of equipment that most people don’t take into account when making their first home purchase. I figure you need at least an additional $2,000 to get started. Lawn mowers, shovels (at least 3 different ones), a drill, a saw, pipe wrenches, blow torch and basic hand tools like a set of socket wrenches, a hammer, at least 4 different screwdrivers…..

But there are also skills needed to successfully own a home, or at least the money to pay to have the work done.

For example if you can’t start and operate your lawn mower you need to have at least $100 a month in income to cover that. Replace an outlet and you can cut $25 a month off your Skills ratio. If you can’t sweat copper pipe or replace the bathroom faucet you need at least $75 a month added to your Skills ratio. If you can put on a new roof you probably can cut $150 a month off the ratio.

The age of the house and basic condition have to be taken into account. I haven’t worked out the full list but it would seem that if you are ‘challenged’ in the areas involved in home ownership you ought to have at least $300 a month put aside to cover things. If you are skilled you probably can buy more of a house than you thought.

HGTV (which the Mrs. watches on occasion), certainly never considers the ‘skills ratio’ when dealing with the doofi that are on the show.

If you don’t pay attention to the Skills to Income ratio owning a home is going to be a much greater PITA than you ever thought.

Of course if you know how to use FM you may just be able to cut the skills ratio down to 25%.

[McGurk]

While I see your point, I think that some of your numbers may be a bit off. I do like your train of thought, and I wish my wife could see how much money I save us when it comes time for me to shop for a toy.

[cavalierowner]

Tom7227, I couldn't agree with you more!! You are absolutely right on the money.

My own daughter and son-in-law are perfect examples of someone who should never own an old home and should have a HUGE number figured into their budget for maintenance and improvements. Anything much beyond painting and they have to hire it out (they live in Green Bay). On the other hand, there's not much in a house I can't do. It started when I spent a year of evenings and weekends building my own house 34 years ago. I have a few thousand dollars that I have spent on tools over the years that have saved me probably $100,000 in labor costs. Yet, all things being equal, a bank would look at both my daughter and I as qualifying for the same amount of money for a mortgage.

Having said that, I can't imagine how a bank would ever be able to figure out something like that.

[BoxMN]

I am no contractor by any stretch, but have done a little bit of everything and when looking at many of my "handy-man handi-capped" friends, I am totally surprised by how many things most people won't even attempt. But knowing some of them, it might be a good thing

My Dad is who taught me, and I recall hating when he wanted me to "measure twice before cutting once", and all the other good advice. But he has served me well, and he wasn't a tradesman either, but a wannabee bricklayer

Anyway, to go along with Tom's idea, I think there could be a test, where you simply have to ask the potential home buyer a series of questions, and you add certain $$ for each "no" or "I don't know" and just stop at, say, $500 and tell them to rent... such as:

Do you know what a reciprocating saw is?

Is righty-tighty?

Is white neutral?

Should you have a trap under your sink?

Do you choke when you start a cold engine?

Leave the factory edge be?

...and other questions that ya'll are more qualified than me to list, haha!

Funny, but real, real-world-experience would help many folks. I have a buddy who fits the "should not own a home" but he is getting there. He mastered my Passlode putting trim on after a few hours or measuring, cutting, shooting.

Biggest thing I learned, is that you don't need to be that knowledgable, just have source for asking questions (here or friends) and you need to invest in proper tools. Same thing for car repairs, some confidence, folks here and my neighbor John have saved me thousands.

[NoWiser]

I definitely agree with you.

Add at least another $100.00/mth if the Mrs. watches too much HGTV!!

It amazes me the number of people that make six figure incomes but look at you all confused if you ask them to change a lightbulb. As custom home builders, we see it all. My favorite is when a customer watches too much HGTV or spends too much time on Pinterest and decides to hang their own knicky knacks or shelving in their new home, and we get an angry call shortly after that their pocket door no longer closes. It never fails. 3" drywall screw run right through the drywall into the door to hang a shelf! The sick look you see on their faces when you back the screw out, close the door, and they see the hole in it...

I've been trying to convince the girlfriend that with all the money I've saved her by cleaning up her disasterous DIY projects she should buy me a new set of Sitka hunting clothing before my elk hunt this fall. I can't post her response without being banned from this site, though....

[Stick in Mud]

Funny...I just bought a (newish) house, and I'm pretty handicapped in these areas. Quite handicapped, in fact. However, if you need a manuscript edited or a lecture on how to do Latin declensions or a bit of help designing an option spread to take advantage of your opinion on the future prices of oil futures, I can help you out. Fixing stuff--not my specialty. So I'm the guy all y'all are making fun of.

In my own defense, I should say....well, I have no defense. Whenever my dad tried to get me to help him fix the car, change the carburetor in the auger, etc., I'd run inside to read a book or I'd grab my bike and head down to the river to catch some fish.

The way I see it, my lack of skills is simply helping the economy through my (future...no major problems yet (fingers crossed)) expenditures on all the things that manlier men could do on their own. Plus, I'm lucky to have a host of amazing friends (some of whom I've met on this site) who help me out when I'm in need, though for their kindness I'm often expected to proofread cover letters, tutor children, find fish, and/or edit essays. Not a bad trade.

[leech~~]

This post gave me an idea since we all know a little bit about something and lots about nothing. FM should start a help thread where people with expertise in different things could hook up with people that need their help and work out some kind of fee for their work or trade them work for something they need done. A Home improvement repair thread. People would post what work they would need done or help with and those with the experience could PM them a quote for how much they would charge to do the work. We could help out each other with a little fishing money! I know there are a few things that I know enough to be dangerous at but if I could find some one that knew how to do them better then I, it may be better to pay someone a few bucks to do it then screw it up myslef. Like laying wood flooring, the wife would like some done but not me!

[BoxMN]

Hey carmike, not making fun of you at all! Just noting that it does cost more if a person isn't as handy. And my point was that nothing really is too hard, if a person is willing to give it a try Just need good resources, some good folks to call or "post to" when you are scratching your head, and good dose of confidence - that is the hardest part!

BTW, I am a computer geek, so like you help my mechanic friends when I can with what I can do to get their networks up, or clean viruses, all that boring stuff

I have found it amazing how many smart folks on this forum and others are more than willing to help out above and beyond, but also to warn them/us when they can tell we are lost and need professional help to stay safe

[Tom7227]

Actually I wrote this thinking about some young folks I know who are out there getting ready to buy a house. The idea was tickled a bit after spending some unfortunate time watching HGTV. I cannot believe that people who are that clueless exist. I know a bank can't take the Skills Ratio into account but I would hope that parents would counsel the youth about the issue.

One of my early jobs allowed me to see how a lot of home repair/improvement stuff worked. I realized that there was a pretty rough equation to it. If you bought all the materials and completely screwed everything up and had to buy them all again it would cost about as much to get the project completed - assuming you learned from your mistakes.

I do not mean to belittle or offend folks who make a living at doing these sorts of things. Skill is hard to beat and the few times that I have hired things out it was a joy to watch someone put things together. And without pro's the Skill Ratio wouldn't exist.

[traveler]

This post gave me an idea since we all know a little bit about something and lots about nothing. FM should start a help thread where people with expertise in different things could hook up with people that need their help and work out some kind of fee for their work or trade them work for something they need done. A Home improvement repair thread. People would post what work they would need done or help with and those with the experience could PM them a quote for how much they would charge to do the work. We could help out each other with a little fishing money! I know there are a few things that I know enough to be dangerous at but if I could find some one that knew how to do them better then I, it may be better to pay someone a few bucks to do it then screw it up myslef. Like laying wood flooring, the wife would like some done but not me!

great idea Leech, but the IRS isn't too keen on that sort of thing, especially when you bring $$ into the equation. Neither are insurance companies when unlicensed plumbers, electricians, etc... do the work.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but not sure if a public forum is the place to do it...things in writing you know:) Maybe if money isn't mentioned and it were to just put people with certain skill sets in touch with each other and the fine details were worked out privatly? I'm not sure even useing the PM feature on here would be wise...

[chasineyes]

One of my neighbors paid me 100$ to hang a ceiling fan. He also paid me to change his flourescent light buld. My other neighbor can barely start his snowblower. And my other neighbor never put oil in his lawnmower after he brought it home from the store. Heck one of them never took out the shipping chute on their mower and it just kept balling up the grass under the mower. I have lots of techy x-box guys in my neighborhood.

With that being said though, think of the "next generation" that is being raised. As more and more people flock to the big city, we seem to lose that "take care of it yourself" mentality. That's why I tell my kids that there is NOTHING wrong with being a plumber, electriction, handyman!!!!

[chasineyes]

parents

Bingo! Can be applied to any situation.

[upnorth]

All I can say is I know way more about how to do this and or fix that than when I bought my first house. Matter of fact when we got our first house didn't really know how to do much of any home improvement stuff.

Used to be a machinist so I know about precision measurement, square, level and plumb. And what I don't know I can either look at it or read a little and I am good to go. Tools, yep I got tools. I have found that if I need a tool to do a specific job I can save money and still have the tool by going out and buying it.

We just put up new siding, soffits, trim, gutters and windows last summer. Never did any of it before hand. Our picky, picky inspector up here had nothing but compliments about the job we did. And he inspected in phases.

So...don't always need to know, mostly be willing to learn.

[cavalierowner]

All I can say is I know way more about how to do this and or fix that than when I bought my first house. Matter of fact when we got our first house didn't really know how to do much of any home improvement stuff.

Used to be a machinist so I know about precision measurement, square, level and plumb. And what I don't know I can either look at it or read a little and I am good to go. Tools, yep I got tools. I have found that if I need a tool to do a specific job I can save money and still have the tool by going out and buying it.

We just put up new siding, soffits, trim, gutters and windows last summer. Never did any of it before hand. Our picky, picky inspector up here had nothing but compliments about the job we did. And he inspected in phases.

So...don't always need to know, mostly be willing to learn.

You're right, a person can learn almost anything on the internet. So many material manufacturer's have installation instructions and details online. There are also tons of DIY videos online, you just have to be aware that some of the videos may not be the right way to do something. I was very lucky in that a good part of my job involved going out to jobsites, so I was able to watch how materials were installed by professionals. That's also where I always looked for advice on what tools to buy; I just looked at what the professionals were using and asked their opinions.

The real secret I think is having the desire and the time to do the work. The example I used of my daughter and son-in-law in my earlier post is more about them not having the time or desire. They are extremely intelligent, but their priorities seem to be elsewhere. And that's fine. When my daughter was young, I used to have her help me with projects, but she just wasn't interested. And when she hit her teens, she REALLY wasn't interested.

[Stick in Mud]

Hey carmike, not making fun of you at all! Just noting that it does cost more if a person isn't as handy.

BTW, I am a computer geek, so like you help my mechanic friends when I can with what I can do to get their networks up, or clean viruses, all that boring stuff

Oh no worries, mate. I wasn't offended at all...I just thought it was funny that I had actually come into the Home Improvement forum to ask about building a simple bookshelf, and then I saw this thread. I'm guilty as charged; there's no denying it.

[leech~~]

great idea Leech, but the IRS isn't too keen on that sort of thing, especially when you bring $$ into the equation. Neither are insurance companies when unlicensed plumbers, electricians, etc... do the work.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but not sure if a public forum is the place to do it...things in writing you know:) Maybe if money isn't mentioned and it were to just put people with certain skill sets in touch with each other and the fine details were worked out privatly? I'm not sure even useing the PM feature on here would be wise...

I still may need that wood floor put in....

[Eric Wettschreck]

The house I live in, in the later 1800's, was a country skool. In 1946 it was moved to where it is now. Let's just say I've done some work to my little house on the prairie. The house I grew up in had no running water until I was right around 3. I remember, kinda, watching my dad rip stuff apart to put in pipes.

There's nothing wrong with not knowing how to do stuff. No one person knows everything, with the exception of a few who hang out in silly town. I think people should be either willing to learn and give it a shot, or understand they will need to pay a professional to do the work.

Both of my sons (in college and vo-tech) have told me that after watching/helping me do all the work in my house they're better off buying a brand spankin new one. There actaully may be truth to this.

[cavalierowner]

I used to worry about screwing something up (and I have done that a "few" times) until I realized that, in most cases, I am money ahead even if I do it twice. I just work very hard researching the things I haven't done before to try to be sure I do it right the first time.

[delcecchi]

I have also noticed, especially after installing a new shower stall in our not exactly square and plumb cabin that doing it a second time would be much faster.

[Nathansdad]

I can't imagine not being able to do it yourself and what the costs would be to hire everything out. The more you can do for yourself the better your return on invetment.

I'm fortunate my dad taught me this. He was a carpenter his whole life and I got into cabinetmaking as my career choice. Five years ago I built my own house. The only things I subbed out was the concrete, plumbing, electrical,hvac and the taping of the drywall. People said I was nuts for building when the housing market was in the tank but this timing allowed me to sub out the needed work at a lesser cost because the subs were hungry and fighting to get any work. Myself, my dad and some very helpful family and friends did all of the rest of the work ourselves. We did everything from the framing to insulating, roofing, drywall, painting, cabinetry, landscaping, and even my paver sidewalks. This did come at some expense as this was my life for a year and a half. Nights and weekends were spent working on nothing but the house. The return on investment is huge though. While many houses were either forclosing or upside down on their mortgage I can sell anytime for a healthy profit. In a day when young people stay away from getting into the building trades as a career choice and favoring sitting behind a computer it's too bad because I know people that can barley get a ladder out to change a lightbulb. Bottom line is as stated previously you can dramatically lower the cost of home ownership by doing things yourself. The internet is a great tool for this. Example is 10 years ago I would have hired an apliance repair guy to replace the seal on my front load washer. I can now easily find the parts and videos on the internet (I know because I did this last week) that allow me to do the repair myself thus reducing the "cost of home ownership".

[Pinusbanksiana]

I agree, you can learn to do almost anything using the internet. Some examples I have done include stuff like replacing a power antenna in my wifes car, putting in a 4wd actuator in my truck, replace many parts on washer, dryer, oven, learned to put up stone veneer, wiring 3 way electrical switches, proper way to install new windows, etc. Anything I need to fix I usually look it up first. End up buying more tools, but I like tools.

[DTro]

Part of the problem is that there are many things we are led to believe that can ONLY be done if you hire it out.   I’ll dive into just about anything and have, but realize that there are some things that require specialized tools or training and it just doesn’t make sense to even try and do. Then you have some other things that just don’t make sense financially to do.

 

A good example is sealing the driveway.  Buying good materials eats up half the cost of having someone else do it, and what would probably take me a good part of a summer weekend day, they can do it about 30 min.

 

Then there are other things I’m just stubborn about like changing my own oil.  I have never paid for anyone to do that, even if they are running a $9.99 special.

 

Having been a homeowner for over 10 years now, I can’t think of anything I didn’t at least attempt to try and fix and was successful about 95% of the time.

 

Seriously, YouTube has been my greatest reference for learning and sometimes you have to weed through a bunch of krapp, but there are great how to videos that you can learn a lot from

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

I think that the theory is good, but impossible to actually incorporate into home ownership.

As a Realtor I see both ends of the handiness spectrum. To be honest it's the DIY'er who usually ends up with half arsed, 3/4 completed projects. If you've ever been in the basement of a guy who has watched a YouTube video on drywalling, you know what I mean. A lot of times you end up having to tear out the DIY project that was 'good enough' covered by artwork, just to have a pro come in and do it the right way.

With the internet you can figure out how to do ALMOST anything, but almost everything requires a certain amount of mechanical competence. A lot of people don't have this, don't NEED to have it, and probably don't want it. If someone is making $200k/year, why would they want to learn how to change their own toilet when someone can do it for $100?

[Biggerfish]

I think that the theory is good, but impossible to actually incorporate into home ownership.

As a Realtor I see both ends of the handiness spectrum. To be honest it's the DIY'er who usually ends up with half arsed, 3/4 completed projects. If you've ever been in the basement of a guy who has watched a YouTube video on drywalling, you know what I mean. A lot of times you end up having to tear out the DIY project that was 'good enough' covered by artwork, just to have a pro come in and do it the right way.

With the internet you can figure out how to do ALMOST anything, but almost everything requires a certain amount of mechanical competence. A lot of people don't have this, don't NEED to have it, and probably don't want it. If someone is making $200k/year, why would they want to learn how to change their own toilet when someone can do it for $100?

I agree with most of your post. Yes some thing are best left to a professional, mudding is one of them. Hanging sheet rock no! I have used the internet for fixing stoves, furnaces, washers, dryers and many other things. I cannot imagine paying someone $200 to replace agitator dogs in a washer when they cost $4 and a 2 minute search on the internet on how to do it.

We all must know our limits, but if a guy can read and have a little patience many things can be DIY....Just my opinion.

[delcecchi]

Quote:

If someone is making $200k/year, why would they want to learn how to change their own toilet when someone can do it for $100?

For the satisfaction of accomplishment, and because they don't have to spend half a day waiting for the guy to show up to do it.

That is on the pro do it yourself side. On the Anti side is that it uses up time that could be spent on stuff you enjoy more.