Proposed change for Muzzeloaders??

[TonkaBass]

Yep. I think Lakevet is spot on on this one.

[fowldreams]

I just get a kick out of lets go back to "primitive" and the way it was meant to be for some. Really? No inlines because thats not the way it was supposed to be? The clothing and everything else has changed hasn't it? Go out there in the loin cloths and not gortex because that is how it was done. Walk to the stand don't take the wheeler. I could go on and on. TImes change for everything. Lets just support the sport and enjoy.

[jay83196]

Exactly! I would love to see if some people live up to there own comments and put all their technology in the closet (not just the equipment they want too) and go " primitive". I vision some dude driving his new wheeler out to his stand with his Mr heater, range finder, Swarovski binoculars, spotting scope, and outfitted wearing his favorite scent lock cloths, (cell phone in a camo holster at his side) and electric socks.... But he is holding his flint lock, well its in his gun holder on the wheeler anyway!

This is such a joke, so many other things to focus on to improve our natural resources.

[harvey lee]

+1

I have a friend that I have hunted with that goes on and on about how the inlines should not be allowed as it is a primitive sport.

With that said, if there is a piece of new technology out there, he has it.

Then we hop on his gaotr and go the area we are going to hunt.

Can't have it both ways.

Whats really bad is for those who purchased an inline in the last few years to hunt and now the state can say, sorry, we will not allow them any longer. No big deal for me as I can easily go to another state but many cannot afford that added expense.

Very little thought went into this to pacify a smaller percentage of ML hunters.

Not trying to say anyone is right or wrong with what they believe but to now end it for some after they have purchased a inline seems wrong.

If you own and hunt with an inline, contact your state reps and tell them how you feel about this and I have to believe it will kill the bill.

[lakevet]

Harv,

The bill sponsor likely doesn't expect to succeed at banning inlines.

This bill has always appeared AFTER a scopes for all bill gets introduced.

This bill has died in the past simultaneously with the reoccurring (I think as many as the past 8 years in a row) scopes for everyone bill. Strictly legislative strategy that contrasts how the weapons used in muzzleloading season has changed. Show a few pictures of the weapon that everyone saw Daniel Boone carry on tv growing up, then show the weapon used by the hunting media stars of today and even the urban antihunting legislator thinks "no to scopes" give the deer a chance. Topic gets dropped til next year when the scopers will try yet again.

lakevet

[ANYFISH2]

Like said earlier I own and hunt with an inline, if this were to pass, I would strongly support it.

Jay, get over youself. there isn't anything that is all or nothing. We sometimes need to limit ourselves to keep thing trues to intentions.

Your right, technology has come a long way, why not allow single shots to the season? Because I don't have to take that extra 10 seconds to load my pellets and push my powerbelt down the barrel? It only takes that first shot anyhow. I am preloaded anyway before leaving the vehical in both cases! It is just pulling the trigger at the moment of truth with both inline and sigle shot firearms.

I chose to buy and hunt with a inline because the rifle was cheap and much easier to clean and to use. Nothing about loading from the barrel makes it feel "traditional" or "primitive", it just another short range rifle(without a scope).

[jay83196]

Lol...sorry I blew up! Ok let's force everyone into being "primitive" all the while still using other technology that far exceeds that gun and above what quit possibly was available when the law was originally introduced. Not to mention we have too many rules already in place. I think its safe to say some people are sick of other people judging, labeling anybody that does something they don't agree with! Everybody has an opinion but leave it at that, A guy can't even post a topic without people jumping all over saying this or that is unethical or wrong, if you (anybody ) don't like somthing don't do it and shut up already! Baiting, scopes on muzzleloaders, etc make it all legal and if you don't want to do it DONT! Other states have fewer and much easier rules in place and have equal if not better hunting and fishing. Let's not make even more!

[ANYFISH2]

Jay sorry for calling you out at the moment. I was having a confontational moment. So I'll get over myself. and just state my postion.

Like has been said this probably is just a play and will not pass. But to argue as if it could, I am not one that likes to be overregulated either but for goodness sake if you have seperate "special" season lets keep it truely different. Lets not loose the identity and have it morph into just 16 more firearms hunting days. I obviously have nothing against using a inline during muzzy season as of now, I hunt with one, I just think this proposal sit well with how I look at muzzleloader season.

Some have said, well lets drop compounds out of the archery season, only hunt withe recurve or long bow, if your infavor of this proposal. I will say this, a compound bow is still just archery equipment, being used during a archery season.

A muzzleloader is a firearm that has been given its seperate season away from other firearms. So that season should probably keep some distiction from the regular firearms season.

[john skarie]

Years ago, people who used a flintlock just used the during regular firearms season. My understanding is that the seperate season was created to give an opportunity to those who wished to hunt with a "primative" weapon a chance to do so without competition from those with regular firearms.

I think the intent was to give the low numbers of people who hunt that way a season of their own. It's pretty obvious that now muzzleloading has become just an extension of rifle season for many that now have bought inlines, who never would have been interested in using the flintlock style.

I can see both sides of this argument. I can also see how the growing popularity of the muzzleloading season is putting more pressure on the deer herd.

JS

[Spike76]

If it is hurting the deer herd it should be changed. The deer herd has to be the priority but not the size of the deer. They're all trophys to me.

[TonkaBass]

If the herd is the priority then they need to change the season so its not during the heart of the rut.

[jay83196]

If its hurting the deer herd, then I think we have other issues, intensive harvest, management areas. I didn't take the time to look but I would think more deer would be taken by hunters taking a 2nd or 3rd then during muzzle loading, but I'm just guessing.

[john skarie]

If I'm not mistaken, you used to be able to buy a rifle or muzzleloader tag, but not both. Now that has changed and you can buy both?

If pressure is the issue than maybe it should go back to the old way.

JS

[mntatonka]

Obviously it's still the case that no one (especially on here) is looking at the numbers. Muzzleloader hunters are 12% successful. That's the worst success rate of any hunter by far. They're also only 12% of the overall hunters, so pressure isn't the issue.

If I'm not mistaken, you used to be able to buy a rifle or muzzleloader tag, but not both. Now that has changed and you can buy both?

If pressure is the issue than maybe it should go back to the old way.

JS

I believe hunters have had the option of buying all three seasons since at least 2000 when the all-season deer license was instituted. I believe you were allowed to hunt two seasons per year before that. The 3B hunters were the exception, they weren't allowed to ever muzzleloader hunt until 2008 or 2009.

[mntatonka]

I re-read this bill, and it actually eliminates the use of inline muzzleloaders for ANY season, including the regular firearms season.

However, it sounds like during the committee hearings for the game and fish bill, HF2611 was withdrawn by the author after he realized that the bill would completely eliminate inline muzzleloader hunting.

[cavalierowner]

This is a bit of a repeat, but I e-mailed DNR about the bill and this is the response I got (in italics):

The “primitive firearms” season, which would have restricted in-lines, was briefly amended on to the game and fish bill at the legislature, but it was quickly withdrawn. So for now anyway, the muzzleloader season is business as usual.

There is a bill in the legislature that would allow scopes on muzzleloaders. There usually is every year, and thus far it has never gone anywhere.

So it would appear to be dead for the time being.

Just to expand a bit from what mntatonka said, here are some real harvest numbers from Table 2 on the DNR HSOforum: Muzzleloader 7,416 deer harvested; Archery 20,444 deer harvested; Firearms 164,471 deer harvested. So unless the bill's author really doesn't get it, it can't be about protecting the herd. Frankly, I think it's an attempt to go back to what the ML season was about when it was originally conceived: a traditional ML season.

[LABS4ME]

Reading through all these posts has been interesting, and so in the interest of discussion (it's off season ya know) I would love to hear some feed back on these points... especially form the 'pro' primitive guys...

Would a side hammer muzzleloader that is the same as was built 30 years BUT with a .209 ignition system still fit into your 'primitive' season?

Would a sidehammer M/L with fiber optic sights fit into your primitive seaon?

Would a sidehammer M/L with a sythtic stock fit into your primitive season?

Would the use of pellets and Sabots or power belts still be allowed.

How about an inline that has a 'bolt' hammer - basically the same as a side hammer except you pull it straight back to cock it, and uses a percussion cap and no fiber optic sites... that describes my first inline... the only benefit and it is not pertainant to the hunt was in the ability to use a wrench to remove the breech for cleaning.

It seems that many view the primitive season decision is based on the looks and shape and ignition system of the gun. In the end, the barrels on the newest and best side hammers will equal those of inlines, loaded with the latest powder and bullets, fiber optic sites and I will bet that there is no performance issue other than the percussion cap being exposed to the elements. The fact a gun is an inline would not have a determing factor on how far out it is accurate. Scoping it and using maximum loads and bullets determines that. Cleaning is marginally more effort in a side hammer. The loading of an inline and side hammer takes the same amount of time if using pellets and sabot/power belts... capping a side hammer takes little more effort than putting a .209 in an inline. When I had a percussion inline it was actually harder and slower than my sidehammer.

My belief (and I would not be in favor of it) is a true 'primitive' muzzleloader season needs to be a flintlock season as that is the purest form of primitive. I truely believe that any form of primitive season needs to be round ball / patch and loose powder also.

Let's hear your thoughts on the above questions...

Good Luck!

Ken

[cavalierowner]

And therein lies the problem. What is the definition of primitive?

As for what I have, I have a Pedersoli Frontier caplock, a replica of a Kentucky long rifle. It started out with a fixed buckhorn rear sight and a front blade that I filed down to adjust elevation. Then I started having trouble seeing the front sight so I put fiber optic sights on. That just about killed me to do that, but it was the only way I could see that front sight in anything but sunny weather. In the past I have always used Powerbelts, but starting this next ML season I will be using a patched roundball.

I would hope that fiber optic sights would not throw me out of a primitive season if it comes to that. I have thought about getting a flintlock but haven't done it yet. If I thought the fiber optic sights looked crazy on a caplock (which I do), I can't imagine how dumb it would look on a flintlock!

[fr0sty]

Hunters today can choose to hunt as primitive as they want. Limiting choice during the ml season (banning in-lines, no scopes etc). only reduces hunter competition.

As has been stated earlier, ml harvest is negligible. Deer numbers have always been regulated primarily by firearms hunters.

I personally user the ml season to extend my hunting in the event I haven't shot a deer during the firearms season.

[lakevet]

Just to expand a bit from what mntatonka said, here are some real harvest numbers from Table 2 on the DNR HSOforum: Muzzleloader 7,416 deer harvested; Archery 20,444 deer harvested; Firearms 164,471 deer harvested. So unless the bill's author really doesn't get it, it can't be about protecting the herd. Frankly, I think it's an attempt to go back to what the ML season was about when it was originally conceived: a traditional ML season.

From the 2011 regs page 90 regarding archery in lottery areas

"LOTTERY DEER AREAS

All archery hunters can take a deer of either-sex in the lottery deer areas listed on page 73. "

and page 88 regarding muzzleloaders in lottery areas

"• In lottery deer areas (where either-sex permits are limited), muzzleloader hunters must apply for and receive an either-sex permit. The application deadline is Thursday, Sept. 8. If you are successful in the lottery, your permit will be valid for an either-sex deer."

So in either sex areas, archers can shoot anything but muzzleloaders are restricted.

Without question, the DNR has added stricter additional regulations specifically to limit harvest by muzzleloaders. I believe they think they need to protect the herd from over harvest in the muzzleloading season. This fear has existed since the institution of muzzleloader season decades ago. The solution was having hunters "choose one" season. It worked well form many years, in high and low deer populations throughout the state. When they have gone in recent years to allowing a hunter to hunt regular firearms AND muzzleloader, a bunch of regulation changes, restrictions, the muzzleloader over harvest of a vulnerable deer population in SW Minnesota all occurred as predicted when the season was first set up.

But even though archers shoot more deer, they don't restrict archers.

Why restrict muzzleloaders, who harvest fewer deer more than archers??? I haven't heard the reason yet. I can only speculate that they fear potential over harvest because they opened the season to everyone, instead of staying with the proven "chose one season" design. Muzzleloader success was closer to 30% when it was "chose one" season and fewer hunters. Instead of 10,000 hunters you have 60,000. So if they think all the new muzzleloaders could hit that higher harvest level, they would be forced to restrict what you can shoot. So they do a preemptive strike.

And from 2009 hunting regulations page 90:

"YOUTH ANTLERLESS DEER AREAS

All muzzleloader hunters are restricted to bucks only. A limited number of youth antlerless are offered for the firearms season

only."

So youth muzzleloaders were doing more damage to the deer herd than than regular firearms kids???????

I remember reading but can't find the reference, that this was due to illegal over harvest by adults abusing youth tags in parts of SW Minnesota, which if so, is illegal. Prosecute, don't punish all the legal youth and legal adults who take them hunting.

If the above reason is not true, why restrict muzzleloading youth so they can't even shoot does after going thru lottery, but the same year regular firearms youth can with scoped, multi-shot firearms?

The new philosophy and purpose of muzzleloading season and the resulting multiple, increasingly restrictive and continually changing regulations of muzzleloading are a far cry from the original season's philosophy and purpose with it's fewer regulations that maintained a muzzleloading season that was very easy on all parts of the deer herd and consistently provided a challenging, low hunter density deer hunting experience statewide for many years.

Wish we could go back to that, especially choose one season, at least in areas with lower deer populations. Unfortunately the DNR has a understandable very large financial interest in selling as many muzzleloader licenses as possible and no other way to replace that income. Especially in this economic climate.

lakevet

[Musky Buck]

Think there is part of the issue, they should've never let rifle hunters have the muzzy option then in-line sales wouldn't mean squat. Since it's an insignificant number of deer taken then why even allow it the way it is now, leave those however many thousand deer to be some of the mature deer to hunt the next fall, in my muzzy area muzzy is an issue, somehow I have land in the core/heaviest pressured muzzy zone area in the state with the highest muzzy harvest so in a few areas it is significant or somewhat anyway. I saw more hunters during muzzy than during rifle in my area bizarre. That gun means a lot because many could extend their season with a bow if they want to, but pulling the trigger is what the majority likes. Deer hunting is getting out of hand in a way so primitive means 0 to me, with 1/2 million hunters move it out of the rut helps how ? Explain how over hunter populated farmalnd deer will catch a break by moving it later, so many grumble food plots and field, well move it back and colder years we be really thinning at their food source and tags are unlimited, bottom line we have way too many deer hunters for the amount of huntable acres especially in the farmland zone so what do we do we give 3 more rifle days in this area, smart move with less sanctuaries for deer to get old in, hmmmmm. Anyway good luck, back on Hiatus.

[Spike76]

Because of my age I have poor eyesight and I'm having a peepsight installed on my CVA. A scope would be better for an old man, but I'll settle for the peepsight. I love muzzle loading and would even buy the old style if thats what happens with the rules. If the fishermen had to quit using the depth finders and fish finders, and go back to canoes and rowboats without spinng reels maybe the fish would have a better chance. I've checked depth many times with my cane pole and it works great. I'll go back to my recurve also, just to extend the deer season. Deer hunting is more enjoyable than anything to me.

[jay83196]

I don't understand the thought process of removing, limiting muzzle season or making a hunter choose rifle or muzzle season for protecting the herd when we have so many intensive harvest areas year after year. I hunt with a couple other guys, the fact we have potential of 15 deer??? Somebody mentioned its only small % of hunters getting 4 or 5 deer, maybe so but I would bet there are significantly more 2nd and 3rd deer taken rifle hunting compared to that of muzzle loading! If people are that worried about the population it seems to me looking into intensive and even management areas should be the place to start, not take away or make a guy choose between more time out in the field or using my inline so somebody else can shoot 2-3 deer with his rifle ( its also nice to have that last couple weeks out before the long wait to next fall)! Just don't understand the argument maybe I'm missing the bigger picture?

[Gordie]

Lakevet if you apply and are successful with a lottery tag You can shot a deer with a muzzle loader. No different than a firearms license holder if they do not get a lottery permit they can't shoot a anterless deer either.

[Jameson]

...Why restrict muzzleloaders, who harvest fewer deer more than archers??? I haven't heard the reason yet. ...