Opener date

[Jameson]

For me it's the part where you say you want these changes so it will be easier to shoot a large antlered buck but then you say it will be harder to shoot bucks.

This. Thanks Big Dave2.

I too want more old bucks as part of the MN deer herd. It has nothing to do with making it easier to shoot an old buck. I believe it will make for a more productive deer herd. Productive in that having more old bucks around will make it so that fewer young bucks die from going into winter in bad shape. Productive in that more does will be bred during their first estrous cycle causing fawns to be birthed earlier allowing more of them to make it through winter. I'm willing to give up the privilege of having a buck deer tag every year to do this, as Harvey Lee has stated he is. It would be for the better of the group at an equal expense to each of us.

Harvey Lee, I do agree with you on many points, but think your argument (or reasoning???) is very flawed.

[ClownColor]

"Currently, the deer herd is estimated to be about 200,000 after the hunting season, and harvests have approached 100,000 in recent years."

I just copied that off of Iowa's DNR page. I'll do the math for you, 200,000 plus 100,000 equals 300,000 deer. A harvest of 100,000 equals 33 percent of the herd.

In MN, our DNR tells us we have 1 million deer and we harvest 250,000 a year, 25 percent.

Somebody, anybody, explain to me how Iowa can harvest a higher percentage of their herd and still keep the meat hunters AND the trophy hunters happy.

Either they have this management thing figured out or somebody from the government is lying to me...

Again, you can't compare MN hunttin Iowa hunting...totally different

I have great statistics at home I'll dig through on this issue but Iowa consists of larger tracks of agg. If we had those same features with less hunters, we'd have HUGE deer here as well.

Farms in MN can often pull in huge bucks, atleast alot that I know, that have large tracks of land with few hunters. Some MN farm lands or large tracks though border many many acres of our publics lands too, which can create more smaller bucks taken. We also have more hunters in MN which, take that same large track of agg, put twice as many hunters on it, you'll have less deer=less monster bucks.

Again, I need to pull some stats at home but I think we are underestimating MN quality of deer here!

[slimngrizzly]

I strongly agree with you as well Harvey!

But needless to say... most of these topics, after about 6 or 8 pages, get to be rediculous, rambling on and on.... and I think this has gone well beyond that!

Quote:

I think we are underestimating Minnesotas quality of deer here.

No, I dont think so. I think people fail to UNDERSTAND its potential for quality.

[Beast26]

I have been reading through this thread and IMO they shouldn't move the date. I have a feeling they don't because so many from MN hunt in WI and vice versa.

A couple of things.

To compare MN to Iowa, IL etc isn't really fair. How much of MN is ag land? How much of MN is water/swamp etc and can never be ag land? IL is successful at raising huge deer because the majority of the land is private land with very few public hunting oppurtunities. Are you saying we should do away with the public hunting lands in MN and allow the landowners to do QDM to manage the herd?

[Beast26]

No, I dont think so. I think people fail to UNDERSTAND its potential for quality.

How so? I have heard many people say the same thing but nobody can back it up. The portions of this state comparable to IA already do product large deer.

[slimngrizzly]

"Large deer"? Compared to what?

In quality im talking a balanced age structure, for bucks and does. Ask the DNR for the last statistics on what they tooth aged deer at registration stations in MN. Most of the "big" deer we kill here are young. Replaced the following year by fawns. The percentage of bucks taken 4 1/2 and over is almost null... thats not to say that they arent "large".... but they're young, and most have not and will not get the chance to reach their potential.

Also Im not trying talk down the deer that farmland MN DOES produce, Im trying to say, Imagine what it COULD produce!!!

[Beast26]

"Large deer"? Compared to what?

In quality im talking a balanced age structure, for bucks and does. Ask the DNR for the last statistics on what they tooth aged deer at registration stations in MN. Most of the "big" deer we kill here are young. Replaced the following year by fawns. The percentage of bucks taken 4 1/2 and over is almost null... thats not to say that they arent "large".... but they're young, and most have not and will not get the chance to reach their potential.

Also Im not trying talk down the deer that farmland MN DOES produce, Im trying to say, Imagine what it COULD produce!!!

Do you honestly think that the majority of the deer hunters in MN would support QDM or something similar statewide? I have no issue with people managing their own land if they have a large parcel. At what point in time does the DNR regulate for the masses and not the minority?

[harvey lee]

Totally agree slimngrizzly.

That is why I quit responding as I was. It's just on and on about almost nothing more than arguing. I have no problwm with a good informational debate but it has gone far past that.

The Mn DNR I believe regulates mainly for dollars of income. That's what it is all about here.

[slimngrizzly]

I know theyd support it if they could bite the bullet for a year or two and let it work! It would truly make peoples head spin to see what this place is capable of! And its a system that takes no opportunity from anyone.

I always thought it was the DNRs job to regulate for the deer! If the masses decide whats best for our herd, then what is the point of the DNR!?

I wont argue anymore. If people aren't willing to try it.... it their own loss. I think its a shame peopel dont want to try.

[harvey lee]

I agree.

But, so many think they will not be able to shoot what they want or it will take away thier deer hunting tradition. I have no clue what to say other than nothing.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I always thought it was the DNRs job to regulate for the deer! If the masses decide whats best for our herd, then what is the point of the DNR!?

You can turn this statement at the "QDM"/APR movement just the same! It seems the masses ARE deciding what they feel is best for deer management. Good question, what is the point of the DNR? Seems the regs have been changed specifically for the horn porn crown in the SE, and they're not stopping there, I'm afraid.

MN HAS a very healthy deer herd! Seems the DNR can't get sell enough bonus tags to control their populations, despite a few hard winters and a booming wolf population.

I can also give another example as to how a late start to the season would ruin the hunting for the folks like myself that hunt the north shore. The deer migrate down the hill towards the lake right about now!!!! And down there, it's pretty much ALL private lands!

It's already slim pickins up the hill during a normal season, let alone once some snow gets on the ground and the deer scatter for the warmer climate near the lake.

[ClownColor]

I have been reading through this thread and IMO they shouldn't move the date. I have a feeling they don't because so many from MN hunt in WI and vice versa.

A couple of things.

To compare MN to Iowa, IL etc isn't really fair. How much of MN is ag land? How much of MN is water/swamp etc and can never be ag land? IL is successful at raising huge deer because the majority of the land is private land with very few public hunting oppurtunities. Are you saying we should do away with the public hunting lands in MN and allow the landowners to do QDM to manage the herd?

I don't know how you got that out of my post but I'll take it out for you!

[candiru]

Yes Bruledrifter, They have their APR experiment in the SE. It has not run its course yet and now they want more.

[mntatonka]

"Large deer"? Compared to what?

In quality im talking a balanced age structure, for bucks and does. Ask the DNR for the last statistics on what they tooth aged deer at registration stations in MN. Most of the "big" deer we kill here are young. Replaced the following year by fawns. The percentage of bucks taken 4 1/2 and over is almost null... thats not to say that they arent "large".... but they're young, and most have not and will not get the chance to reach their potential.

Also Im not trying talk down the deer that farmland MN DOES produce, Im trying to say, Imagine what it COULD produce!!!

Actually, according to the DNR (the heads from Southeast MN anyway), the numbers on age harvest don't exist. They take a few samples, yes, but accurate numbers with enough data points to make a statistical calculation do not exist.

Because of this, you cannot actually make the assumption that there are no 4.5 year old bucks taken, or that there are 50% of yearlings taken. Those numbers simply are not tracked by the DNR in Minnesota and therefore any assumption on what age classes make it through each year's hunt cannot be made.

[surewood]

I don't need the dnr to take samples. Go to a gas station on Sundays when people are traveling home. Comes down to a simple observation. If that's what the majority wants then I'm okay with that. I do believe the people should determine what's acceptable as long as we have a healthy herd. Although I'm in the minority and would love to see an older age structure. I thinking someday before I die I might be in the majority.

[Musky Buck]

I'm with ya surewood, basically we're maxed out meaning there used to be unhunted areas that deer could survive the season in and get older, there are very few of these anymore, the main one in my area would be because of the city limits and you bet all around town on the edges are box stands because those folk know that's where a fair amount go to survive. Take samples, ask the processors and the ones I ask say of course yes the deer are smaller on average, ask the CO's who have been around awhile, not very many decent bucks get brought in anymore like they used to but it makes sense also. I wish we could still do big buck contests, many were way more patient and selective in deciding yes or no to shoot, now that the state shut those down or at least ours, anyway the winner wouldn't be size wise like they once were. The last 2 years of that contest that I recall a 272# won and the same guy the next year 268# won. If you weren't 230 plus no need to even weigh it as you were getting a ribbon for participation. Bet those 230's from then would win easy today. I think our opening dates are fine, I just wish we got the weather like we used to, tired of these warm rifle seasons when nothing is froze and we rarely see any snow to hunt in. Anyway, the dream bucks of the past are fewer and farther between. Our reality is what we're seeing the past 6 seasons or so, but oh well it could be worse.

[Beast26]

Anyway, the dream bucks of the past are fewer and farther between.

Don't you also think that has alot to do with the population in the state and how it's much more spread out than it was 40 years ago? When my dad was a kid they rarely saw deer in the Annandale/Maple Lake Area - hell it was the talk of town if one was seen. Heck there is 2 million more people in MN than Iowa. Urban sprawl in MN, although now slowed, was massive during 1980's - mid 2000's. More people, more building etc = less habitat for deer and other wildlife. Look at the farms in MN. Everything out west is drain tiled and every inch of land they can farm is farmed. Should the DNR stop farmers from farming their land? I don't knwo and I don't think there is one right response. This is the reality we live in. It's going to take private landowners to grow the size structure of the deer in this state. That's how WI does it. Why won't it work here? The last thing we need is more DNR IMO.

[Musky Buck]

Certainly Beast26, agree totally, I also think the jury is still out in old zone 4. 2days or 4, that's the way it was then multi-zone buck tags came, then the all-season tag came then zone 4 became zone 2 which meant the farmland became a straight 9 day season then anyone can muzzleload, etc. Being in a 5 tag area. Lots of factors no easy answers really. My dad told me about 1971 and no season. We're talking basically about the age of the bucks, it is much tougher for them to reach an older age and there's a lot of reasons why that is the case. A lot less habitat for sure, my dad shows me places he deer hunted as a kid and those places are gone, developed, housing, farming or whatever reason. Why won't it work here it does work here in certain places that catch and release yearling bucks. 1 area I hunt no one except kids are going to take a yearling buck and our trailcams prove the big bucks are alive and well, this year 8 shootables were on film. Another area I have maybe 1 decent buck on camera every other year, the rest are all fawns from the year before now as yearling bucks, they get shot ASAP if anyone in the area gets to see them. But, I don't blame these people, they don't live around the deer yearly like I do, they primarily come from the cities, just getting any deer is fine by them so it's ok, sure that area stinks, reeks for me and my dad but oh well, guess what I hunt area #1 the most .

[Beast26]

Completely understand. This year I chose to hunt public land for the first time in quite a while. I saw deer - passed on two 1.5 year olds. Did so because I know for a fact there is one large one that I have seen numerous times bow hunting and have on camera (still alive I got pics of him last Friday). I haven't hunted him since opening weekend and hopefully he will run into a 50 Cal sabot from my smoke gun on Saturday morning. But what it comes down to for me this year is the area I am hunting is lottery. I didn't draw a tag. I would like some venison for the freezer this winter. I can't shoot a doe.....will I shoot a lesser buck if it comes down to it so I can have some venison? I am kind of torn. Also, the majority of those that hunt don't give a rip about age they just want to put venison in the freezer. Do I blame them? Nope, it's good eats.

[Musky Buck]

How do you blame anyone for wanting a cooler full of beer sticks for the fishhouse this winter. It's too bad some that the doe's took such hits the past 5-6 years or so and you're lottery, that doesn't help the yearling bucks much I'd assume, also makes some that would wait things out really question laying off a yearling buck when many aren't seeing much this season. Good luck and no doubt if I would've shot a yearling 6 pt opening morning ending my season I wouldn't have tagged a zone 1 8pt 194lber November 17th, it tugs at you as to what to do, gamble on the chance at a bigger buck or take the sure thing right away, for me I always wait and on deerless years I go to a good friends and coerse some of those beer sticks from the boys lol.

[bowhunternw]

Well I am not sure when you have the season to avoid it. I think the main rut hit near the end of gun and still seems to be going strong. If you push it to late I think that it would stress them more going into the cold winter. The only problem is there is no limit to licenses sold, and people will wait a while for something bigger but that doesn't last long. I hear it all the time, I wasn't seeing much so I shot a spike of fork. Although I am not sure I think we should manage for bigger deer, hate to see it end up like Iowa or Illinois where it is all outfitters (pay to hunt).

[psepuncher]

what is this rut hunting you speak of?

[surewood]

I think the rut started as usual. The wind played a huge factor why people saw little rut activity in my area. First calm day of the season saw three bucks chasing and my brother saw two. If I had it my way I'd push rifle/shotgun back a week. Just my thoughts no proof. I think if they had the beginning of the rut deer would breed faster and earlier and we'd have less late fawning. Which is healthier for the overall herd. Give them time to breed before they get shot and harrased.

[certified jumbo]

I like the opener date for minnesota rifle. hope it stays the same.

[jay83196]

I agree how about we just leave things the way they are part of why big bucks are special is because they usually don't come easy, if everybody got one wouldn't be so special. And nice to spend holiday with family if it opened week before thanksgiving a lot of people take full week off and that would complicate things. I honestly don't at least in the two different areas I hunt think big bucks are that rare I see them every year on camera or we get one in my hunting group.