Pointing Labs??

[BLACKJACK]

Starting the hunt for a new lab pup, been reading a few articles on pointing labs, sounds interesting, have a pointer with a lab personality, was wondering if they're the real deal or if they're just another marketing strategy like British labs or red labs??

If you have a pointing lab, please chime in, I'd like to hear your experience!! Also, what happens if you run a pointing lab with a non-pointing, flushing lab??

[wormdunker]

My opinion, you can train the trait in Labs. I have owned a pointing lab. I have owned non-pointing, I currently own a marketing scheme British Lab (get your facts straight) find a real british lab and you will notice a difference. You are right though there are many breeders claiming to have BL's and they are watered down versions of pures.

Dont take me the wrong way I said i notice a difference not that it is better or not, that is up to your personal interpretation.

Regarding Pointing labs, I think all labs can be trained to point to some degree. My dog had some pointing lines in it, I worked with it but really did not want it to be a pure pointer, range out find a bird an sit on it. I wanted the dog to have a more call demeanor when he finally got on a hot scent. Basically slow down the flush process. Many times the dog would lock up eye to eye with a bird. Impressed many. But to say it had every characteristic of a GSH or like breed would be a stretch.

I would guess with more work you could train that in them but it would take a lot of work to eliminate the retrieving urge labs naturally have.

[Scott K]

I also have Brittish Labs, I can tell you they sure are mellower, better listening, better temperament, and easily trained than any dog I have ever owned. I also like the smaller size in the dogs as well. Maybe I just have been lucky? As for pointing, one of mine started to point at a younger age, I didnt want a pointer, I wanted it to flush them up to me, now when he gets on the scent, he just slows down, and gets birdie longer before he flushes. For me, I would rather have that, then a pointer.

[eagle_3464]

There is a lot of criticism when it comes to labs that point naturally. Much of this comes from those never seeing a pointing lab or seeing a lab that was trained to stand game. There are some really good labs with the true natural instinct. Most of the good ones have not lost anything on the retrieving end like some wish to believe. In fact there are many of them with MH and GHRC titles and some with AFC/CAFC titles along with some QAA.

On another state forum there was a big debate between the traditional pointer people and the pointing lab people. Out of that debate came a challenge from the traditional guys to put the labs up against a "real" pointer. The challenge ran 17 braces pairing a traditional pointer against a pointing lab in each brace. Each brace was 20 minutes in high heat with 4 birds planted per dog. The dogs had to find, point, and remain steady to shot for the bird to be scored. In the end, the labs outscored the the pointers. The best part of this event was that each side gained an appreciation for the others dogs and made new friends to boot. Got long here but the "point" is, there are good labs out there with excellent natural pointing instinct. There are a few upcoming litters I wouldn't mind having a pup from. Good luck and most important is to make sure the litter will have the health clearances.

[setterguy]

That would be a great way to compare the two kids of dogs if hunting trips were only 20 minutes.

Question, were the pointers run at the same time as the stopping labs?

[gspman]

They were indeed.

[Ufatz]

There is a lot of criticism when it comes to labs that point naturally. Much of this comes from those never seeing a pointing lab or seeing a lab that was trained to stand game. There are some really good labs with the true natural instinct. Most of the good ones have not lost anything on the retrieving end like some wish to believe. In fact there are many of them with MH and GHRC titles and some with AFC/CAFC titles along with some QAA.

On another state forum there was a big debate between the traditional pointer people and the pointing lab people. Out of that debate came a challenge from the traditional guys to put the labs up against a "real" pointer. The challenge ran 17 braces pairing a traditional pointer against a pointing lab in each brace. Each brace was 20 minutes in high heat with 4 birds planted per dog. The dogs had to find, point, and remain steady to shot for the bird to be scored. In the end, the labs outscored the the pointers. The best part of this event was that each side gained an appreciation for the others dogs and made new friends to boot. Got long here but the "point" is, there are good labs out there with excellent natural pointing instinct. There are a few upcoming litters I wouldn't mind having a pup from. Good luck and most important is to make sure the litter will have the health clearances.

Great post and VERY informative....would have been fun to watch that afternoons work. Personally I'll take a lab and a pointer to the field with me but that's just me. And I dislike much of what I see the the current "line of Labs but then I grew up with the "old" traditional Black Labradors that were smaller, far more malleable and gorgeous to look at.

Have had some wonderful pals for six decades and loved them all. But I know times change and everything today has to be faster, bigger, more competitive and robot-like in performance. I still know where to get old fashioned Labs. Don't ask.

And just think......the peak dog seasong is just around the corner!!

[eagle_3464]

The traditional pointers and the "pointing" labs were run at the same time in head to head braces hunting the same field. Early scores were pretty equal when the labs were picking up birds that the traditionals missed. After several braces the lab guys decided to hunt the field differently, rather than just follow the traditionals. This stragedy got them fresh birds plus birds the traditionals missed. Going in, the pointing lab guys did not expect to win this event but to gain respect for their dogs. In the end, not only did they gain respect but they won the event. Of course there will always be naysayers but the "pointing" labs proved what they can do in the upland field. I wouldn't say these labs are the best dog for everyone but IMO they would be a good versatile option for those wanting an upland/waterfowl dog. Sounds like they are going to make this an annual event and next year, bragging rights could likely go to the traditionals. Sounds like the traditionals will be loading up on trial champions next year.

[Hookmaster]

I have a 2+ year old British Lab. The trainer that introduced her to bird and gun said British Labs have a higher tendency to point than non-British Labs but I don't know if it's true. She did well last year for ducks and should be even better this year. I have to work more on her field training (quatering).

[setterguy]

Please tell me when and where. I'll bring a couple flushing setters.

[Snag]

I pheasant hunted with a pointing lab about 5 years ago and it was an awesome dog. Athletic and pointed with a ton of intensity. Looked a lot like a setter on point.

[setterguy]

Ok here is my final thought and opinion on this subject. Are there nice pointing labs, I'm sure there are. I've hunted with a guy that swore up and down his pointing lab could find more grouse than my dogs. It was 11 points to zero, setter. His labs did flush a couple, but didn't point a one. "but she points all the birds at the game farm." was his response. Huh. Does this one dog represent the breed as a whole, of course not. But it does mark the difference between a dog that has been bred for centuries for a specicic task vs. a dog that has been bred for 20 years to do multiple tasks.

Any trainer worth a darn can teach any dog to stop when it encounters game, does this make them a pointer? No. My dog retrieves, does this make him a retriever, no.

If someone really wants a pointing dog that retrieves there are plenty of options. Any of the versatile breeds should retrieve naturally, or you can certianly force fetch a dog that doesn't.

If you think the idea of a pointing lab is cool and simply want a lab then go ahead and buy a pointing lab. You may end up with a great dog. I just think that when buying a dog taking the most amount of risk out of getting a lemon is the smartest thing to do.

From the horses mouth:

From the Labrador Retriever Club (AKC parent club):

POINTING LABRADORS

The clear and unarguable fact is that the Labrador is a retriever, not a pointing dog. There may be a residual instinct to point in certain Labradors. That does not make the Labrador a pointing breed. It was bred for use as a retriever of game and in this country particularly, as a waterfowl retriever. There are any number of sporting breeds that excel at pointing upland game as well as flushing such game. The Labrador is not one of those breeds and should not be bred or sold to the public as a pointing breed.

[rundrave]

Can I bring my Retrieving German Shorthair pointers?

This is a touchy subject and I will say to each his own. Its been said on this site and many others that if your dog does what you want it to and your happy with it than thats all that matters.

This whole pointing labs vs pointer talk gets old. They both have their pros and cons, but I will stick with the versatile breeds because that is what works for me.

I have hunted with Pointing labs before, and sure some Point, but rarely do they honor or back like my shorthairs do.

I have run my dogs in AKC and NAVHDA tests as well as your good old boys club pheasant championships. None of those venues offer anything close to the experience of wild birds.

[herm]

"Its been said on this site and many others that if your dog does what you want it to and your happy with it than thats all that matters."

Amen!

Here's my view/experiences: 3-4 years ago decided to jump into pheasant hunting with dog. Did research and decided on a pointing lab. As TOTAL amateur, I've trained her using books, friends/advice and a pro trainer's help on the basics. I never worked specifically to develop her pointing skills, mostly because I wanted her to do the basics right - and not screw her up. Still, she has pointed naturally her first 2 years. She also flushed birds. And she also honors points of other dogs. (That'd be the BO training!)

Amid all this, I still hear about how "labs don't point" and aren't as good as pointers/etc. I can't help but chuckle. If they don't point and I've never trained her to do so, how did she "learn" it? (I checked her kennel...no books about pointers in there...)

Again - if your dog does what you want it to and your happy with it than thats all that matters!

You all keep debating this, especially on weekends in Oct/Nov. My dog, kids and I are headed afield to have some fun doing whatever it takes to find the bird. Flushing, pointing, cartwheels...whatever it takes.

[Ufatz]

Well said fellas.....well said.

[pikeguy2003]

Bought a dog from Tom Dokken at horse and hunt club back in 1985. I am primarily a waterfowler and Zeus proved to be amazing and also was a natural at pheasant hunting. Never was trained as a pointer, but I cannot tell you how many times he locked up on point. I will probably never have another dog as good. I did some research and was told that labs originated out of Europe and for hundreds of years they were pointers. They were originally brought over and were trained to help fishermen pull in nets and in the off season these fishermen who hunted also utilized them as retrievers. Therefore, in my opinion it is not a correct statement to say that it would be a mistake to take a retriever and train them as a pointer as that wouldn't be natural. What has transpired in my opinion is that labs, whether pointers or not, make the best overall hunting dog for the waterfowler and upland hunter that doesn't want to have more than one dog. You could really view them as the utility player?

[LABS4ME]

Actually Labs were bred down from the St. John's water dog. A now extinct breed. they were not bred in Europe but rather on the islands around St. Johns. I've read that the cod boat captains used them to retrieve fish that fell out of the nets when hoisting into the boats and to pull long lines between boats. I really don't think a lab could retrieve a net... I have read they could pull the lines for nets, but they have trouble with 2 decoys wrapped around them, let alone a net and they can't swin backwards to pull them. Many think they are bred down from New Foundlands, but they are not. They have not been bred down from pointers, but all predators have some 'pointing' instinct naturally in them. Even big cats will 'point' at times when they find prey. It's a matter if it manifests itself within each certain dog.

That being said, I have had labs that have 'pointed'. I would never breed or advertise as such. Some were fairly adept at 'pointing' and did so on 50% of the birds they encountered (usually hens). But they flushed the other 50% (usually roosters). That would be a total failure of a true pointer. I used to have a pic of my 1st lab on point with an English Pointer backing her... but turn the tables and she would have no problem bombing in on a pointer and flushing it's bird. This was back in the 80s before it was 'cool' to have a "pointing" lab. If they do it naturally so be it... not going to try and rid them from what they do to make game... but myself, I have no time to promote, enhance, breed for or train it into my dogs. In breeding for 'pointing labs' you further whittle down the gene pool you will breed to and in the end, I believe you are changing the characteristics of the breed on many levels doing so. They are and have been bred to be retrievers first and actually to a lesser extent flushers. All the 'dogs du jour' within the lab breed may eventually escalate it's demise!

Breed the best labs you can breed and let all the other cards fall as they may.

I was staying out of this, but threw in my 2 shiny pennies (for what they are worth!)

Good Luck!

Ken

[Ufatz]

Now fellas, listen to this man. He has actually READ something about Labradors and knows a little of the history of the breed. Ha Ha Ha. And I sense he may be exhibiting some of the traits of us OLD Labrador guys who like the modestly sized, deep chested, fat tailed, shiny black dogs of the "old days".

I'll give credit due to these new faster, sleeker, thin eared rat tailed black and yellow dogs as I watch them at the never-ending parade of various "dog" events but I have yet to see any of these modern dogs do anything my old Mike did....decades ago.

Oh. I take that back.....I've never really had a great Dock Jumping Champiosnsip dog. But I DID meet a guy who had just paid $1000 for a yellow dog that "...came from a long line of dock jumping champions."

I was stunned.

[BLACKJACK]

Geez guys, I didn't mean to start an argument!!! Thanks for all the info though!!

[setterguy]

In breeding for 'pointing labs' you further whittle down the gene pool you will breed to and in the end, I believe you are changing the characteristics of the breed on many levels doing so. They are and have been bred to be retrievers first and actually to a lesser extent flushers. All the 'dogs du jour' within the lab breed may eventually escalate it's demise!

This is what I've been trying to get across, you said it much better though Ken.

[eagle_3464]

Quote:

In breeding for 'pointing labs' you further whittle down the gene pool you will breed to and in the end, I believe you are changing the characteristics of the breed on many levels doing so.

I am not saying a pointing lab is the best dog for everyone nor the best all around dog period. But, please explain to me your quote and how it is any different or any worse than what is happening in trial dogs. If you look at trial dogs, a large percentage of them have Lean Mac in the pedigree top and bottom side (responsible for a large part of EIC). How's that for whittling down a gene pool. For that matter, Lean Mac also has a good presence in pointing labs.

I'd be willing to bet that most of you have never attended an APLA event to see first hand the skills that these dogs have. At any APLA level, retriever work is a requirement both land and water. Watching a master level retrieving series will give you a real appreciation for what these dogs are capable of. There are becoming more and more APLA 4XGMPR's which is 8 master level passes. As mentioned in another post, many of these dogs also have MH and HRCH titles, with some going as far as QAA, AFC, and CAFC (FC AFC CFC CAFC GMPR MHR Jazztime Last Chance V Pekisko). IMO, well thought breeding of labs with the instinct to point is taking nothing away from the breed. They are still bred to be top notch retrievers and to hunt, locate, and point upland birds.

BTW Ken, I really respect your thoughts and knowledge regarding labrador retrievers. Thanks for sharing this knowledge with all of us. I have many times looked to your posts for advice. No disrepect, just have a different opinion on this particular quote.

[certified jumbo]

wow, never new this was such a sensitive subject. but my yellow lab is a great pointer and i love it. works well for my 67 year old dad. gives him a chance to get on the birds.

[LABS4ME]

O.K., not going to delve too much more into this.

Agree on point as far as trial dogs goes. It is show dogs also... and now pointers (the smallest suitable pool of breeding dgos of the above 3)... when a select core of breeders line breed or inbreed down a specific lineage of dogs, it does damage the breed as a whole. The trialers all say I'm nuts... the show people all say I'm nuts and eventually the 'pointing' lab people will say I'm nuts too. Plain and simple, all these breedings are looking to get the one best attribute out of the dog to "WIN" and ultimately make money and in some cases really caress an ego. Most would forgo a potential sire for a breeding if he could really enhance your pups... say a Champion - Master Hunter in lieu of a GMPR or FC that has only a so-so coat and whippy tail and snipey face. Trialers will do that to get a hot derby prospect, show people will too so they can get the next Ginger in lieu of a Mary-Ann. It is what 'they' want... not nessacarily what's best as a whole for the breed.

Let's be honest, the pointing lab people will alwys go back to a pointing line solely to keep buiilding on the pointing ability. The trialer will ultimately breed back to the winningest marking dog... and both will disregard many other fine attributes of the Labrador breed. They are not needed in their breedings. ie: true lab structure, coat, bidability, calm demeanor, natural intelligence etc... A well rounded well thought out breeding is now a: maximize the parts "I" need the most. The show people do it also... perfect structure, coat, calm demeanor and only need be smart as a bag of wet diapers. Field ability and intelligence are not needed in the ring. Unfortunately, it was not that many decades ago when we still had Dual Champs. Too bad... I really think those days are gone. We breed not for the whole of the breed, but the parts in which we feel best reflect what we want to see in a dog. The rest will be taken care of with collars, in depth training regimens and neoprene vests.

To each their own. I Love all Labs, the trial dogs, the pointing dogs, the show dogs, the hunting dogs, the lie on the step at the fishing resort dogs.... they're all good... but the ones I love the most, are the ones whom are all of the above! The epitome of a Lab that comes close to all those are the Hiwood dogs of yester year and Ray Vreeland's "Sky Watch Radar". All natural, all pleasing, great coat to ward off the November water, easy on the eye, easy on the vocal cords, a joy to have rubbing on your leg at heel or to put your hand over for a blind... That my friends is a Lab!

I have really big shoulders and most will disagree with me, and that is the reason I should stay out of these debates... I've been told I'm nuts on more than one occassion, but I've seen the morphing of the Lab over the last 30 years.... I will still try to continue to produce those dogs. They ARE the reason we all want a lab! some will be winners, some will be hunters, some will lie on the step waiting for their Masters, not because it's all they each could do, it's because it's what you wanted them to do.

Good Luck!

Ken

[CigarGuy]

Ken, open some space on your mailbox or give me your email address in my mailbox. I want to send you some pics of Molly.

Bill

[LABS4ME]

pride design at live dot com.

Looking forward to seeing her. Her sis may be bred this spring... if I can find the right boy...

Good Luck!

Ken