It just makes me want to............

[Eric Wettschreck]

Haul back and slap an engineer until the dumb falls out.

Case in point, my 15 HP Ariens zero turn mower. It wouldn't start. I start turning wrenches on it and find the starter gear is stripped. Ok, no biggie. I look a little deeper and find the flywheel ring gear is stripped also. THEY"RE BOTH PLASTIC!!!! I mean really, plastic gears.

Makes me scratch my head sometimes.

We've all been there. What experiences have yous guys had that made you go, "Who's the rocket scientist that designed this?"

[zamboni]

When General Motors decided side post batteries were a winner. Bad spot to get jumper cables on them, jumper cables barely stay on, and they are tough to get a wrench on and seem to strip out easily.

[sunniewally]

couldn,t slap an engineer log enough for the dumb to fall out!!!!!

[CAMAN]

Can't blame engineers about things like that when they have to present their designs to accountants who will nickel and dime an assembly to death.

That little plastic gear is going to save a company BIG bucks.

FYI- I'm not an engineer but am a machinist. I'm the first person to put my palm in my face and say "WHAT the 'F' were they thinking?", and most of the time it's because an accountant said they needed a cheaper way.

[CJH]

Can't blame engineers about things like that when they have to present their designs to accountants who will nickel and dime an assembly to death.

That little plastic gear is going to save a company BIG bucks.

FYI- I'm not an engineer but am a machinist. I'm the first person to put my palm in my face and say "WHAT the 'F' were they thinking?", and most of the time it's because an accountant said they needed a cheaper way.

^ This. Remember, its not the engineer's who have final say over what is built. Most of them face palm when they here from Accounting/Mktg/Etc what they have to build @ what cost.

That being said, gears should never be made of plastic!!!! Sorry to hear you are having problems, although it sounds like that may be a recurring problem if you can't find and upgrade/workaround.

[LMITOUT]

Can't blame engineers about things like that when they have to present their designs to accountants who will nickel and dime an assembly to death.

That little plastic gear is going to save a company BIG bucks.

S.A.L.E.S.

Sacrifice

Accuracy

Let

Engineering

Suffer

[MJCatfish]

When the Chevy engineers designed the interiors of the Uplander van... broken trim on the pull handles, both front doors...glove box door... cup holders... lock and remote entry is garbage...auto sliding doors are too slow. We bought it because it was a Chevy... Don't know if I'll do that again.

I have talked with other Uplander owners and they have had very similar experiences. I guess we know why they don't make that van anymore.

Thanks for starting this post and thanks for allowing me to vent. Feel better now.

MJ

[Eric Wettschreck]

S.A.L.E.S.

Sacrifice

Accuracy

Let

Engineering

Suffer

I call bull. This attitude is the demise of our nation. I build and fix a lot of things both at work, and for side jobs. The only time I expect to see a customer is when they want another thing built, not to have something I made fixed cuz it was made from junk. Poor craftsmanship means no further work, and I'm not about that.

Build a quality product. Make something you would be proud to stamp your name on. Don't send junk out the door. When it goes out the door be proud to have your name on it, or don't send it away.

Cheap and disposable = pure fecal matter.

[LMITOUT]

That's the way it is. Do you really think a designer/engineer is going to choose plastic over metal for a gear? Absolutely not. Now if they chose the wrong type of metal or it was designed incorrectly then it's all on the engineering dept, but if given a choice they wouldn't take plastic over metal unless they were given specific design constraints by the bean counters, such as cost, for better marketability (read: cheaper than the competition which will hopefully boost SALES). That has been an internal battle forever and sales always wins. If engineers could build it the way they wanted to it'd never sell because it would be too expensive.

And yes, it is the demise of our nation because that's what we have to do to compete with cheap labor overseas, which means cheap products made here since our labor costs are high.

[Eric Wettschreck]

Do I think a designer will choose plastic over alum? Yes I do. And it ain't only the bean counters. Sometimes yes, I'll buy into that. Other times, sadly, the designers have no freakin clue what they're actually designing.

I've been doing my thing for a long time man. Yup, there are some design guys that have forgotten more than I'll ever know. Unfortunately, there are more design guys that don't have a clue what the difference is between a torque wrench and a set of flippie floppies are.

No real offense to design guys is intended. But when the signatures are on the paperwork, and the engineering guys are gone, the wrench turners "Un f k" the job and keep on keep on keepin on. Wanna talk about budget? This kind of junk adds HUGE to the maintenance budget but thank goodness the capital came in under budget. Yeah, that saved us a TON of money. (Wallowing in a pool of sarcasm as I type this)

[LMITOUT]

I hear you cluckin' big chicken, but unfortunately with your mower we're talking big business and big manufacturing and there isn't design-on-the-fly or freelancing going on after it hits the production line because then it would really be a mess.

Every nickel and dime adds up when it comes to mass production and they (the bean counters) are going to take advantage of every shortcut they can to turn a buck for their boss which means engineering has to "do more with less" to meet those budget constraints. It sucks, but the bottom line is, well, the bottom line and that means we get to deal with it on Saturday mornings when our mowers don't start.

[CAMAN]

Until you've been in a meeting where they're trying to cut costs on a product, or you're 2 months into building a die cast mold for a car part and the boss comes to you one day and says "scrap it" because they found a cheaper way to build the part, then you can't say cost doesn't overide quality/craftsmanship.

We are competing with CHINA where there are no labor laws, and costs of labor are pennies compared to here. The bean counters really don't care if the cheaper made parts last, as long as they break AFTER the warranty is up!

[Eric Wettschreck]

I've been in these meetings. Like Lmit said, big chicken be a clukin.

I'm a boilermaker by trade. In my line of work, dealing with really big turbines spinnin many thousands of RPMs, boilers crankin out thousands of pounds of superheated steam, and furnaces roasting at over a couple thousand degrees (f, not C, this is America) There's no room for plastic, or cutting corners, or taking the cheap way out. That kind of junk kills people.

The founders of Foster Wheeler should be spinnin in their graves seeing what we've become.

In the end, flywheel ring gears and starter gears should not be plastic. My 3 year old nephew knows that much.

[LMITOUT]

In my line of work, dealing with really big turbines spinnin many thousands of RPMs, boilers crankin out thousands of pounds of superheated steam, and furnaces roasting at over a couple thousand degrees (f, not C, this is America)

You too? Fun isn't it?

You put it together, I try to break it. Well, not on purpose but I try to get as much out of it as I can. You know, budgets.

[LMITOUT]

When General Motors decided side post batteries were a winner.

I despise side post batteries.

[Eric Wettschreck]

Someone out there is laughing his hinder off knowing his great side post battery idea is putting us in the funny farm.

[BobT]

S.A.L.E.S.

Sacrifice

Accuracy

Let

Engineering

Suffer

I call bull. This attitude is the demise of our nation. I build and fix a lot of things both at work, and for side jobs. The only time I expect to see a customer is when they want another thing built, not to have something I made fixed cuz it was made from junk. Poor craftsmanship means no further work, and I'm not about that.

Build a quality product. Make something you would be proud to stamp your name on. Don't send junk out the door. When it goes out the door be proud to have your name on it, or don't send it away.

Cheap and disposable = pure fecal matter.

I have to agree with both of you. The engineers are assigned with a task and all they have to do is meet the minimum requirements of said task. The company is the one that provides the specifications that the engineers are assigned and so the company sets the tone. They decide where the line is drawn between cost and quality. The engineers may not even like what they are doing because they may know that it is low quality and not going to last but the company is calling the shots.

The real problem as I see it is that the unsuspecting consumer is the one that gets caught. We put our trust in the quality of the products we buy and don't question the design because we don't have the expertise to do so. I certainly wouldn't have a clue where to start looking for design flaws, weaknesses, or discrepancies. The worst part is that we have to put out the cash in order to learn about these things and so we're out. Our best and quite frankly in most cases our only option is to do exactly what you are doing....spreading the word about the poor design quality. Hit them in their pocket where it hurts the most.

[PurpleFloyd]

There are several factors that go into these decisions but I tend to hold the belief that companies are destined to see a decrease in customer satisfaction and a reduction in overall quality whenever they get to the point where they give the accounting dept a bigger say in the design and decision making department than the engineers and production managers. You see it across the board from fast food restaurants who slash their training budgets in order to reduce labor expenses to manufacturing companies who begin as Eric illustrated to look to cut production costs even if it compromises long term reliability.

[Eelpout08]

Typical lowest bidder/cost syndrome.

“It is unwise to pay too much, but is is worse to pay too little. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. . . . it can’t be done. When you deal with the lowest bidder, it is wise to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better!”- John Ruskin (1819-1900)

All most people seem to look at these days is the upfront price, which makes it extremely difficult to be competitive without sacrificing quality and craftsmanship.

I loose a lot of work to companies that will cut every corner to get a job.

[delcecchi]

There are several factors that go into these decisions but I tend to hold the belief that companies are destined to see a decrease in customer satisfaction and a reduction in overall quality whenever they get to the point where they give the accounting dept a bigger say in the design and decision making department than the engineers and production managers. You see it across the board from fast food restaurants who slash their training budgets in order to reduce labor expenses to manufacturing companies who begin as Eric illustrated to look to cut production costs even if it compromises long term reliability.

Nothing new. Remember the ford pinto gas tank deal? Detroit has been in the bag of balancing warranty cost against manufacturing cost for a long time. And if it is out of warranty, even less concern to them. GM alone has a list as long as your arm. I am sure Ford and Chrysler do too. Now the Japanese companies, who used quality and reliability to capture market share, seem to be running into the same thing.

Making something good and reliable is easy. Making it so while minimizing cost is hard, especially when it is to be mass produced by ordinary workers, not tool and die makers or boilermakers. Think UAW on friday afternoon.

[Scupper]

Automatic garage door opener - main drive gear, Plastic.

Door was froze down in the freeze/thaw cycle of spring. Wife informed that the door was making noise and wouldn't open. Upon inspection of the drive box I found the main drive gear rounded/stripped.

At that point I can only assume my thinking was the same as Eric Wettschreck.

After some research I found a repair kit. I only needed the drive gear but had to purchase the entire kit for about $30 bucks. Another $100 bucks or so and I think I could of had a brand new low end opener...

I copied and pasted the information below from wiki.

Plastic Gears Plastic gear first emerged into large-scale use in the 1950s and soon became economical and functional alternatives to metal gears. Plastic gears are made of inexpensive commodity plastics for use in low power drives in products like clocks, motorized toys and lawn sprinklers.

Properties Plastic gears have greater consistency and are easily molded to various shapes. They are less expensive

and are lighter in weight. Plastic gear is chemical and corrosion resistant and has quieter and smoother

operation. They deflect to compensate for inaccuracies by absorbing tiny impacts of small tooth errors and

gear misalignment. They offer more efficient drive geometry. Plastic gear ratios are feasible to allow for

wider gears that transfer more power in single stage, thereby increasing load capacity.

The dimension and properties of plastic gears change with temperature, moisture absorption and chemical

exposure. The plastic material can withstand high tangential force with acceptable tooth deflection. They

have high strength to withstand shock loads during sudden stops and overloads. They are creep resistant

and maintain contact ratio, tip clearance and overall gear geometry.

Material The most common plastic materials used for making gears are acetal, polybutylene terepthalate (PBT), nylon, polyphenylene sulfide (PPS), and liquid crystal polymer (LCP). Acetal is the most important of all plastics. It offers long term dimensional stability and excellent lubricity. It is often used in gears for office

equipment, irrigation equipment, autos, appliances, clocks and meters. PBT produces extremely smooth surfaces in molding and is often used in housing. Nylon offers toughness and wears well against other

plastics. They are often used in worm gears and housings. PPS offers high stiffness, dimensional stability

and extended fatigue life. LPC works well in small, precision gears under light loads, such as watch gears.

Plastic gears have some disadvantages also. They have reduced ability to operate at higher temperatures and can be effected negatively by many chemicals. They are often used in water meters, showerheads, water sprinklers and other applications where water could erodemetals.

[SkunkedAgain]

We all know what happens when the engineers get free reign without the bean counters as a counter balance:

[BobT]

Typical lowest bidder/cost syndrome.

“It is unwise to pay too much, but is is worse to pay too little. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. . . . it can’t be done. When you deal with the lowest bidder, it is wise to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better!”- John Ruskin (1819-1900)

All most people seem to look at these days is the upfront price, which makes it extremely difficult to be competitive without sacrificing quality and craftsmanship.

I loose a lot of work to companies that will cut every corner to get a job.

Yes and no. The company I work for made a decision a few years ago to maintain quality even if it meant a higher price. We set out to try and reduce costs in other ways such as finding ways to be more efficient, cut waste, save power, etc. We began to invest in R&D and the gamble paid off. Not saying it wasn't easy but today we have regained much of the market share we lost when we tried to compete with the lower quality competition. There is a niche that can be filled by the cheaper products no doubt but at some point you have to come to the realization that you can't possibly capture 100% of the market and so you have to decide which market to target. It can be done. We spent a few years just rebuilding our reputation from what it had become and today, despite our higher price, we are now on top again. Our customers can once again rely on the quality of our products and service and those that have stayed with us reap the benefits from that trust.

[Gordie]

My favorite expression to a engineer had to be:Yea it works on paper.. come and try it it in the real world.. He said I'll do it. I said Well then go ahead knock your self out

[delcecchi]

Sometimes plastic gears are designed to strip to prevent worse damage. Like the garage door opener, if the torque limits are set improperly, what part do you want to break when someone tries to open the door and it is frozen down?

[TruthWalleyes]

I'll tell you what. I'm a manufacturing engineer, i work with design engineers every day; the majority of design engineers have no practical experience, and lack common sense in application senerios. I used to teach design engineering students in college how to use a lathe, drill press, etc...and it was just comical to watch these guys/gals break drill bits like crazy.

The best design engineers have great common sense to accompany their intelligence, and live in a practical world. (Not even the circle on your CAD system is round- it's a bunch of squares on your screen) I can tell you that there are not many of those engineers around in the design world, but those that are; are great engineers and have great products.

I spend half my day dealing with the poor designs from people who live in a vacuum. It seems to be the most obvious things that the design engineers miss. Can be very frusterating for the consumer!!