Zone 3 APR

[psepuncher]

Pennsylvania's antler restrictions softened

ERIE TIMES-NEWS

: April 12. 2011 3:29PM

The Pennsylvania Board of Game Commissioners took the first step at their January meeting to change the antler restriction definitions in the current four-point area in the western Wildlife Management Units.

The idea of changing antler restrictions in the four-point area began a year ago when Game Commissioner Robert Schlemmer and I were hearing from many sportsmen about the difficulty of seeing brow tines,” said Game Commissioner Ralph Martone.

Today they met to write the language of the 4 point rule to 3 points to a side.

[RuttenBuck]

I really think people are over-reacting to the "high-grading" genetic theory. If everyone targeted to shoot only the first legal buck they saw, I can see the possibility of having negative affects after many years of practice. However, the popularity of passing on immature bucks is growing in hopes of allowing them to mature so some younger deer with better genetics will survive. If you really believe after a 3 year trial we have altered our genetic footprint to where it is even worth mentioning, you need to find something else to worry about.

There are so many variables that play into a bucks rack and genetics is probably the hardest variable to control. There are many articles surrounding "cull" bucks and how it is almost impossible to alter the genetics of free ranging deer. I don't see how targeting inferior bucks is any different than targeting superior bucks.

The bottom line in all of this de-regulation is people don't like to be told they can't do something. Some people had to go back to work Monday after hunting season and tell their buddies, they didn't get "their" buck. I can't imagine

how emabarrasing that must have been. Oh wait, I do know that feeling... happens to me most years.

I might not be speaking for all hunters who practice QDM but I'm going to say a lot of them feel this way, but I really don't need to harvest a mature buck to have had a great season. I just need to know there are a few around and catching them on trail camera and hunting for their sheds in the spring gets me through the many years in between successful harvests of mature deer. If APR isn't acceptable, lets compromise again. Unfortunately, the other 50% of the hunters don't want to give even a little.

For all of you against the 3 year trial, I'd like to hear your better solution for reducing deer numbers and increasing the age structure in bucks.

[DHost21]

Wow Ruttinbuck that was the best post i saw so far! I agree completely that just knowing they are there with trail cams and the shed hunting definitely gets me by until i get a crack at a nice deer. Its about more than just harvesting a deer its everything that goes into hunting the nature and friends that all comes with it. I agree also that its the people that are so against any rules that are making this hard. I would bet the people that are for APRs are willing to compromise in ways and just want some sort of regulation i know i dont need exactly a 4 point restriction i could go with earn a buck or buck lottery or APR or any other type of restriction that helps young bucks grow and that makes people take more does. I will let my DNR tell me what works the best out of all those but im willing to compromise with many different things but like you said its the people that dont want to be told what to do that are making this difficult. They are so special and its there "right" to shoot a deer and that just [PoorWordUsage] me off. Its a privilege to hunt not a right and if the DNR wants to make rules to help out the deer herd and to help grow mature deer. Follow the rules stop thinking youre above the law and shouldnt be told what to do. Im willing to compromise so now you guys have to too even if that means you cant shoot the absolute first deer you see

[Bear55]

Well said RuttenBuck, I'm not really huge on APR either way but it sure sounds like political scare tactics in here.

Guys shooting the first legal buck they see will always do so, and the same for the guys passing basket 8's with good genes so really nothing changes. A few 1.5 year old buck with good genes are going to get picked off every year, maybe a fraction of a % more with APR in place. Then when you factor in a wild herd and take 50% off of everything because the does are providing half the genes those whole high grading thing isn't much to worry about.

[nonteepical]

Kip Adams, QDMA’s director of education and outreach, notes that, as far as yearling bucks go, point restrictions don’t always do the job. “Where you have really good habitat, such as in parts of the Midwest, yearling bucks can have six and even eight points,” says Adams. “As a result, antler-point restrictions of three or four points to one side wouldn’t keep these bucks out of the harvest. In such cases, antler-spread restrictions do a much better job at focusing the harvest onto older bucks.

Apr's were a compromise, blame MDHA and brown it's down for that one not QDMA or Bluffland. a 16" spread is what was originally proposed with no point restriction, at 16" spread is 99.9% guarantee to be 2.5 years old and thats what all this is about, letting more 1.5 year olds survive the season. Letting youth take anything is the only proposal that was'nt a compromise, MDHA hee'd and haw'd about that one too.

Using Missippi as a model compared to Minnesota is a joke, for one thing they can take 3 bucks per hunter per season. Mississippi State University is part of Mississippi's wildlife management so why haven't they repealed the APR rule if it's so negative.

[PostFrontal]

Hockey: "Beating a dead horse." HAAAAAAA...Awesome!

What Pennsylvania did to change their APR was what I originally posted to start this thread. 3 points one side, browtines don't count as a point. I think that would go a long way to alleviate the problems with identifying deer, which was from what I have read, the biggest complaint. And even though I am for apr for the 3 years, and I sit on stand all day, the problem I saw with the way it was structured was it is tough to identify in the split second for those that do drives.

Thought that wasn't discussed on all the biology/genetics thing: there are trophy deer right now, genetically inferior deer, and everything inbetween. From what I have read, trophy deer only do a certain percentage of the breeding. Not the majority because there is only a small percentage of them and way more does and other kinds of bucks. That means that these does are being bred by every deer under the sun. Does that mean that all trophy bucks came from trophy bucks breeding? Or is it possible that some of these inferior and in-between bucks carry the trophy genes but it skips them for whatever reason and the next generation can be a trophy buck? Like twins or albino skip generations in humans? I don't know, I'm not a biologist.

Since Muskies were mentioned, I have to give an analogy that relates to letting young bucks go. 8 years ago when we were fishing Lake Minnetonka almost everything we caught was 38-43 inches. We released them all. We had no idea which one had trophy potential and which ones didn't. Now we are catching the majority in the 46-53 inch range. How do we know which ones grew into the trophys and which ones didn't?

Also, the muskies in the lakes that have tulibees and ciscos are a whole different animal (larger/fatter) than ones where the main forage base is perch. I would think that would be the same, and a legitimate argument, when you are talking about the minerals/cropland of SE MN as compared to other states that some are saying APR doesn't work, and even other parts of MN.

So instead of doing basement biology, let's let it run the 3 years and see what happens.

[Bear55]

Apr's were a compromise, blame MDHA and brown it's down for that one not QDMA or Bluffland. a 16" spread is what was originally proposed with no point restriction, at 16" spread is 99.9% guarantee to be 2.5 years old and thats what all this is about, letting more 1.5 year olds survive the season.

Wow I would love to hunt where you do, I think I have maybe seen one or two 2.5 year old with a 16 inch spread. The other 99% of two year olds I let walk had spreads less than 16. Heck the 3.5 year old I shot last year only had a 15.75 inch spread so I might leave out those 99.9 guarantees.

Not that using spread is a bad idea it is just much harder to judge, especially when you get into that 14 to 16 inch range.

[nonteepical]

width of it's ears was what was proposed. i wrote 16" since thats about tip to tip on a mature deer. and i'll still guarantee 99.9% with a 16" spread, at least 2.5 years old

[heat checker]

Given the fact that we have very limited control who the sires will be and no control over who the dams will be or what their genetic potential is, I've concluded that the high-grading theory is hogwash.

Just curious, are you people that believe this theory in the meat hunting category, or just think APR's are the wrong way to grow bigger bucks?

A simple solution to this would be to simply move the firearms season out of the rut?

[B. Amish]

how can you call it hogwash when its happened in at least three places that have tried aprs?

i just don't get it.

i'm against them and i've never shot a buck that didn't go on my wall... ever. i've been doing qdm long before it was the sexy thing to do. i'm far far far from a brown and down guy.

i'm out on this. i at least hope the points i've made makes some of you guys think outside the box on this.

and by the way. the way to increase doe harvest and also increase age structure in bucks is a buck lottery.

[Getanet]

I’m in the category that doesn’t think hunting regulations should be designed to grow big bucks. As long as we have a high deer population in MN I believe hunting regulations should be designed for opportunity – not limit opportunity. I’m in the category an individual can decided if a deer meets their standards or not. I don’t believe I should be able impart my standards for an acceptable deer on anyone else.

Considering in 2010 only around 1/3 of hunters were successful, and the total deer population is high in most parts of the state, it stands to reason there are plenty of bucks in MN that make it past the magical 1.5 year old stage. MN is currently in the “good old days” of deer hunting and there is plenty of opportunity for people to practice whatever form of hunting suits them best.

[helpme]

I’m in the category that doesn’t think hunting regulations should be designed to grow big bucks. As long as we have a high deer population in MN I believe hunting regulations should be designed for opportunity – not limit opportunity. I’m in the category an individual can decided if a deer meets their standards or not. I don’t believe I should be able impart my standards for an acceptable deer on anyone else.

I agree 100%!!!!!EDUCATE NOT REGULATE!

[PostFrontal]

I’m in the category that doesn’t think hunting regulations should be designed to grow big bucks.

[heat checker]

I think that is what gets my goat the worst, is the people that want(and have had), the greatest opportunity, seem to be the ones that take the hardest stance against change. Understandably, they don't want to lose a morsel of that opportunity to others with different ideals. I guess until the majority of hunters are satisfied with their deer hunting experiance, and population goals are met at the same time, different things need to be tried. "Don't fix it unless it's broken". Well obviously if roughly half the people want change, IT'S BROKEN. Not saying APR's are the way to go, but they are sure worth a try, along with buck lotto,out-of rut ect. Maybe every other year of one of the above would work?

[goblueM]

I think that is what gets my goat the worst, is the people that want(and have had), the greatest opportunity, seem to be the ones that take the hardest stance against change. Understandably, they don't want to lose a morsel of that opportunity to others with different ideals. I guess until the majority of hunters are satisfied with their deer hunting experiance, and population goals are met at the same time, different things need to be tried. "Don't fix it unless it's broken". Well obviously if roughly half the people want change, IT'S BROKEN. Not saying APR's are the way to go, but they are sure worth a try, along with buck lotto,out-of rut ect. Maybe every other year of one of the above would work?

i'd change that to people THINK its broken. Ask any sportsmen and they'll say "we want bigger bucks" and "we want more deer" and we want "more walleyes"

many times it is just simply impossible to really improve things in a meaningful way. for instance a lot of times fishermen want to catch more fish, but the lake is already at carrying capacity and there is just no biological way to increase the number of fish.

IMO the APR is much ado about nothing because in the end it is impossible to satisfy all the different values of deer hunters and you have to manage in a way that inevitably upsets some folks on both sides

deer hunting in SE minnesota is absolutely fantastic. most places would kill to have the numbers and the quality of deer in the region, and here folks are taking entrenched positions about how bad the system is and how it needs to be changed. so forgive me if i see everybody acting like spoiled 6 year olds squabbling over how best to "fix" a resource that is of immense quality to begin with

[heat checker]

I'd have to agree with that last statement. I'm bucks only the last 2 yrs, I should be the one belly achin!

[bottom-bouncer]

You no what I cant figure out many of you that are against the apr as it currently stands. claim to be in favor of something differnt than 4 points on a side. some of you say using spread or main beam lenght would be better that way there wont be any high grading. But it seems to me not that long ago oh lets see oh yea back towards the end of november there were plenty of people on here complaining that they couldnt get a shot because they just werent sure if it had 4 on one side or not.And that it wasnt fair because for generations your party has done deer drives and now thats about impossible because if a deer is running it to hard to tell if its a legal deer or not. And then there was the concern that what if you thought it was a doe but turned out to be a small spike and in the low light conditions you couldnt tell. My point is if you cant tell if a buck has 4 on a side when its running through the woods you sure as hell are not going to be able to tell if it wide enough to shoot. and if you cant see the small spikes on top of the head then your probably past legal shooting time. Also when you speak of high grading due to removing a specific type of deer from the heard you speak as though next season hunters are going to kill every single buck that has the (trophy) genetics. Oh yeah and as far as minnesota being fine in its current state as far as having qaulity bucks and plenty of them for hunters to harvest that you should be able to kill any buck you choose a quick reminder when 75% of your yearly buck harvest consist of 1.5 year old bucks there is need for change.

[surewood]

I agree with bottom bouncer, and will add to people seeing if it has four pts or if it's a spike vs doe. If that is anyones arguement then you don't know exactly what you're shooting at. Don't shoot! That's falls under a safety issue also. I'd be all for not rifle/shotgun over the rut, but thats a seperate issue and just my opinion. I know there are arguements against it, but you can't please everyone.

[honker23]

I have hunted 3B for a long time. I think if the goal is to harvest more does, EAB would help. If they want bigger bucks, move the 3A season out of the rut. This may sound odd, but I think taking AWAY days would increase hunter success and doe harvest. Maybe I'm wrong, but if the deer got a little break, they wouldn't become so nocturnal and hold up in sanctuaries.

If they want to lower the number of young bucks shot APR will help.

What was the age break down in regards to the buck harvest this year?

[Getanet]

Finally, you said it. This is what I have been waiting for. The actual reason for your arguments. Agree to disagree.

I've been pretty consistent on my stance across all APR threads that our hunting regs should be for opportunity. And that's not just my philosophy, it's been the DNRs, which I happen to agree with. Believe it not, I take that stance because I believe it gives you as much protection as me.

If this discussion was turned on its head and laws were proposed that would make it illegal for hunters to shoot larger bucks can you imagine the outrage? I would be against that as well.

Right now if you're lucky enough to have a big buck walk by your stand you have the opportunity to shoot it. Right now if you have an antlerless deer walk past your stand you have the opportunity to shoot it. Right now if you're luck enough to have a fork walk past your stand, you don't have the opportunity to shoot it. You don't have to shoot any of them, but only one is illegal and would make you a criminal if you did.

If you want to start taking others guy's opportunity away don't be surprised when at some point someone wants to take yours away.

[96trigger]

Quote:

I agree 100%!!!!!EDUCATE NOT REGULATE!

How can someone educate a group that fundamentally disagrees with not being able to shoot the first thing that comes along? This is what has many people banging their heads against the wall. Different people have taken up the stance for doing something to help get more age structure, but its the same people that keep coming back saying that we don't need any more regulations and that nobody should tell them what to shoot. Their are people on this site that are trying to EDUCATE, and people still don't seem to get it, or buy in, therefor, this leads to the push to REGULATE. Get it yet?

It will be much easier to join a group of like minded individuals and work with them, than to try an educate people that fundamentally disagree with everything you are trying to accoomplish. There will be no amount of convincing or arguing that will get them to change their mind.

However, the discussions still need to happen as some people maybe read these and not post, and still be swayed by the discussion one way or the other. But the people that are posting, are not going to be changed no matter what happens. I have participated in these discussions in the past, I have respect for both sides. I enjoy reading them. Keep it up.

[PEATMOSS]

Their are people on this site that are trying to EDUCATE, and people still don't seem to get it, or buy in, therefor, this leads to the push to REGULATE. Get it yet?

The fact of the matter is that your side has not produced a compelling argument for some of us to buy into. We see this as simply a case of being forced to alter our hunting traditions to facilitate this ego driven pursuit of big antlers. We have not seen a compelling biological agrument that this type of management is needed and in some cases actually find it harmful.

Further, what really grinds our gears is that you guys want to have your cake and eat it too. No sacrifice on behalf of the trophy hunters is ever offered in any of your proposals.

Here's your chance to prove me wrong. How about we simply add one little caveat to the APR regs. I propose that in any area that the DNR imposes APR's, that bowhunters be regulated to antlerless deer only until the start of the firearms season

Biologically, this would assure that the biggest and best bucks in the herd make it to breeding season to pass along their genes. Protecting these big bucks and assuring them the opportunity would certainly lead to the "healthier herd" you guys seem to think is so important . Also, by adopting this regulation, your side could show your sence of fairness. Afterall, if I am infringing on you by taking a yearling buck, you're infringing on my rights by taking a trophy before I even get a chance at him, right?

OF COURSE I WOULD MUCH RATHER WE JUST STOP ALL THIS SILLINESS, HAVE SOME RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER AND LEARN TO ENJOY OUR PURSUITS WITHOUT FEELING THE NEED TO FORCE OUR CHOICES ON EACH OTHER

[Getanet]

How can someone educate a group that fundamentally disagrees with not being able to shoot the first thing that comes along?

Trigger, I believe we've gone a few rounds on APRs in the past, welcome back! Felt I needed to clarify something here. There's a big difference between disagreeing with not being able to shoot the first thing that comes along and actually shooting the first thing that comes along.

I disagree with APR, but that doesn't mean I haven't or wouldn't voluntarily pass on smaller bucks. There is plenty of room for education and discussion without regulation.

[lakevet]

I see two groups against APR's.

First, the traditional "brown its down" group which includes my Dad who is 80 years old. Big buck, spike, doe, fawn, as long as it's a legal deer it will be eaten. I think this group is not the big threat that pro APR's think it is as they punch a tag with the first DEER they see and are done. Over 50% of the time it is antlerless. I think this group is compatible with big bucks, and for those into buck doe ratios, the traditional "brown its down " group do the heavy lifting in this state to keep does in check. Their biggest concern is making sure the deer they are looking at doesn't have one little 3" polished spike behind an ear that would get them in trouble. Especially with 80 year old eyes.

Second is the "any buck its down" group. They shoot the first "BUCK" they see. This group was created by the buck only doe permit regs started in the 1970's. This group is the one, I believe , that pro APR hunters hold up as the problem.......but always mislabel them as" brown its down". They pass on antlerless cause they can't handle the teasing for shooting a fawn or doe and wait for "any buck". Their concern is having to pass on an obviously racked buck chasing several does around, because they can't tell if it has enough points.

The second group is the one specifically targeting the little bucks.

lakevet

[DHost21]

No body is forcing you not to pick up a bow peatmoss. Grab a bow and then you can get to the deer as quick as anyone else.