Thoughts on NO HUNTING during the Rut..

[psepuncher]

mabr- i swear we have the exact same situation. I do not understand why shooting a fork is so much better than shooting a doe. I think that even seeing a deer is a thrill dont get me wrong. I still get a huge thrill shooting a doe. I figure just let the little bucks go to grow.

Where I am, There is a population of deer that is about 28 head.

And what we like to do is eat them.

It's not a matter of you coming into my area and waiting for a big buck. It's a matter of my family harvesting enough venison for sustanance.

Plain and simple.

The DNR has been trying through various means to control the MN deer population and I'll be the first to admit, we should all do our part to control and manage deer populations. No kid likes to sit in a stand hours and hours waiting on one deer. We shoot our share of does, but we're not looking to decimate the herd.

All new adult hunters are going to lose out on a huge percentage of oportunities. The kids also after Early Antlerles {EA} season which is only 4 days. If people don't think there isn't a big buck around then those people don't hunt much. I would call this new {AR} antler restriction lazy hunter law.

Like..... {AS SEEN ON TV}

[psepuncher]

Quote:

PP I cant answer for trigger but i do know alot of younger hunters 16 -mid 20's and what I hear and see is they are the ones Trigger mentions. They grew up watching the tv shows and see the difference letting the little guys grow. Now if your son is a relativly new hunter i can understand his frustration in having to pass a good deer in his eyes. BUT give him a couple of deer under his belt and see what he is willing to pass on for the opportunity to get a good one.

Im not positive but i think the new reguation has loop holes for younger hunters which I know from triggers previous posts as well as all that I have talked to about this all agree on and is incouraged.

Now to the new adult hunters. I'll be honest, I dont know. I know of no way to handle this other than what others have mentioned previously that first time lisense buyers are able to harvest any deer. I dont know how exactly this would work, but I understand you concerns.

I commend you for taking him with you. But id be willing to bet the farm that after he has taken a few deer he wouldnt have nearly the disapointment in letting that 120 class buck go to have a chance at harvesting a 150 class.

We harvest about 3 to 4 deer per season. And can do so in confidence in knowing that a big mature heavy horned buck has a home range of 600 to 1000 acres. And it's anyones oportunity to bag that trophy.

[BLACKJACK]

Your absolutly right in saying we think we care more about the deer than others do. I honestly believe that and I know others who feel the same way.

[Getanet]

PP I cant answer for trigger but i do know alot of younger hunters 16 -mid 20's and what I hear and see is they are the ones Trigger mentions. They grew up watching the tv shows and see the difference letting the little guys grow. Now if your son is a relativly new hunter i can understand his frustration in having to pass a good deer in his eyes. BUT give him a couple of deer under his belt and see what he is willing to pass on for the opportunity to get a good one.

Mabr, I’m glad you brought this up. I think we as a hunting community are doing future hunters a great disservice if we’re letting them get the majority of their hunting information from TV. Nearly every one of those shows are guided hunts filmed on hunting preserves or ranches that dedicate every resource they have to growing big bucks. To this day I recall watching a show as a young hunter where they shot multiple huge bucks. As the credits rolled the star of the show thanked his “friends at The Sanctuary.” I couldn’t believe how good the hunting was in Michigan. The problem is The Sanctuary is a huge deer ranch that will cost you anywhere from 4-18 grand to hunt it. Beyond limiting access to the thousands and thousands of acres they own, here is how they get such big bucks:

• For almost 20 years, the researchers at Purina Mills have been working with The Sanctuary to provide world-class nutrition to grow world-class deer. And because nutrition is such an integral part of growing big deer, Purina Mills¨ Deer Chow¨ truly is the secret to their amazing animals.

• AntlerMax is actually a protein technology. This patented nutritional delivery system provides a substantially higher quality protein to growing deer antlers. Simply put, feeding Deer Chow with AntlerMax will result in antler growth of unprecedented speed, size and mass. But there's more to the story than bigger, faster. AntlerMax delivers proprietary types and ratios of essential trace minerals that specifically target the needs of growing antler tissues, resulting in optimal antler density and strength.

Any young hunter who thinks their hunting experience is going to reflect what they’re seeing on TV is going to be greatly disappointed. Particularly if they hunt public land. We, as a hunting community, should be explaining to future hunters that these hunting shows are about as “real” as The Apprentice is to a true job interview or The Bachelor is to having a real adult relationship.

With that, I feel as though I’ve said my peace. People should be free to practice whatever form of QDM they want, but they shouldn’t force their vision of a successful hunt onto others through legislation. Good luck to everyone fishing, hunting or doing whatever it is you like to do.

[Musky Buck]

I have trouble with the sustanance claim when if you're that way you should sell your property, save the 600 a year on internet fees, licenses, shells, guns, knives, processing,clothing,fuel, etc. and get your name on the list for the vension donation program all the while you could still get enough deer by a change of the deer hunting regs.

[mabr]

BlackJack, please read the entire post before pointing fingers and using snippits please. As you'll see I say I havent taken a buck in over 2 years but both those seasons were very sucsessful in my eyes by what happened during the 3.5 months I hunted each year. It is not about the antlers at all. Your spiteful response on killing a spike to upset us, to me says volumes and I'll leave it at that.

Getanet, I know personally what feed and age can do, look at my avatar that was my bottle raised buck at 1.5. I agree with your example of the sanctuary and many other shows where they are hunting high fenced deer. But its the ones like Lee and Tiffany, Drury outdoors, and many others that are making a difference with our new hunters. Their seeing what it took me years to figure out. That if you will pass the little ones even on public land it will most likely pay off down the road. Let me say I DONT hunt public land, I hunt private exclusively, but if i did I would be so happy with this law knowing i was at least going to see more deer now. Even though I couldnt shoot them I would at least be seeing more deer, which for me is a big part of why I hunt.

You compare them to the reality shows and say there unrealist. I challenge you to try one of our neighboring states and then say that. Ive seen it, My best hunt ever was in Iowa 4 years ago and once again never let an arrow go. BUT I seen at least 20 deer on every sit and had my opportunity on a 160 class buck that beat me and my buddy both. Neither of us took a deer that week but we will never stop talking about it as long as we live. This land as well as all of the neighbors land has been under their own personal management plan and they are being rewarded for it. These people are relatives of mine so I talk to them alot and they just cant understand why MN is not willing to change. I mention my buddy during that hunt, he then lived in MN. Well he was transfered to WS 2 years ago, and has called telling me hes found property there that IS ALMOST as good as we had in Iowa. On public land no less, It was under State mandated EAB. Im not pushing for that as its not needed here yet. But if it came to it I would be.

Ive said my peace as well and im gonna sit back and read for a while. Go ahead everyone against, I dont mind being the whipping post, I know Im speaking for alot of others out there who feel the same way I do.

[Rick]

This is not pointed at you mabr or anyone else....but before it does, let's refrain from the whipping boy posting mentality in this thread. We prefer everyone take the high road here.

Thanks much.

[eyeguy 54]

got it from the WI facts. I was wonwering if it ws still that way, must not be.

Here is the 2010 dates I found. Looks like no archery nov11 to nov 21

so the archers get the first part of the rut and the rifle the end?

not a bad idea.

•Archery – Sept. 15-Nov. 12 and Nov. 22-Dec. 31

•Mule Deer Conservation Area – Sept. 15-Dec. 31

•October Antlerless (any weapon) – Oct. 2-11

•November Firearm – Nov. 13-21

•Earn-a-Buck November Firearm (Wahoo and Elkhorn units) – Nov. 13-23

•Muzzleloader – Dec. 1-31

•Season Choice (antlerless) – Sept. 15-Jan. 18, 2011 with bow; Dec. 1-31 with muzzleloader and Nov. 13-21 and Jan. 1-18, 2011 with firearm

•Youth and Landowner – Sept. 15-Dec. 31 with bow; Dec. 1-31 with muzzleloader; Nov. 13-21 with firearm; and Dec. 26-Jan. 18, 2011 (antlerless only) with bow or firearm

•DeSoto Muzzleloader – Oct. 16-17; Oct. 30-31; Dec. 11-12; and Jan. 8-9, 2011

•Boyer Chute – Oct. 23-24; Nov. 20-21 and Dec. 18-19

[candiru]

"mule deer conservation area" Are you sure that isn't Wyoming?

[psepuncher]

I have trouble with the sustanance claim when if you're that way you should sell your property, save the 600 a year on internet fees, licenses, shells, guns, knives, processing,clothing,fuel, etc. and get your name on the list for the vension donation program all the while you could still get enough deer by a change of the deer hunting regs.

Ok ya got me. I also have a garden, and I go pick my own fruit too.

And we also process our own venison. But to me sustenance is something you use for supporting yourself. Why would i kid anyone about that?, I eat what I shoot.

1.

a. The act of sustaining.

b. The condition of being sustained.

2. The supporting of life or health; maintenance:

3. Something, especially food, that sustains life or health.

4. Means of livelihood.

As far as buying all that JUNK. I don't buy anything new except a tag.

I even rounded up my own deer pee last winter. My clothes are old. And I use baking soda for my clothes and myself for scent free hunting. For fuel I drink coffee and then walk out the door. I also took bow education and made sharp-shooter trying out for MBH. So For that I bought a used bow and cheap arrows. Hard to lose those when your a good tac driver. For my guns I only have a single shot 12 gauge. I don't waste a lot of shells sighting in that thing, 50 yards max range for me.

Believe it or not both of my parents taught me well. My dad was raised in a one room house with a dirt floor in Mississippi and my mom was raised in the Wasatch Mountains of Wyoming.

Maybe I don't uinderstand the full meaning of sustenance, but life is good,

Just the way it is.

[96trigger]

The kids I am referring too are the kids at my school. They are very positive about this. Many are practicing this type of management already, but have family members that do not. I have heard more than one say great, now uncle so and so won't be able to shoot that fork. I will say this though, these kids are diehard hunters. Many of them are already well established hunters at 17 years old. We spend all fall bringing in trail cam pics and talking about deer. So, they are your average highschool kids, as for the kids that are younger, they get to shoot anything anyway. I get just as excited for them about shooting does as they do bucks. They bring in pictures, sheds, and antler mounts on a regular basis just to show others. I am very well connected the kids that hunt and fish in our school.

As for why I am pushing so hard for this regulation change. I am not pushing hard for it. I never lobbied the DNR, I have never been a part of a deer organization until 2 months ago. I do believe that there are way too many young bucks that get shot in areas where hunters could just as well shoot a doe. If you haven't hunted down here, you don't know jack about what it's like. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why a vast majority of you who this has absolutely no effect on. give a [PoorWordUsage]. Did you guys go ballistic when Wisconsin went EAB? The only way this will ever effect some of you is if it is successful, then maybe you won't be so negative. You know why many of the kids don't think these new regs are big deal? Because to them they aren't. If I or they want to go out and shoot a deer, we go out and do it. Might take a day or two, but getting a doe down here is not that hard. I shoot at least one every year. I see one if not multiple, everytime I go out. In a given week, I probably have a good shot at one at least 2 or 3 times. A nice buck, now thats a different story. By no means do I ever expect it to be that easy to shoot a mature buck. That would just be ignorant of me, nor do I ever want it to be that easy. However, there is a problem with the number of mature bucks and the number immature bucks that get harvested.

The reason I get an encounter with one every year is because I do my homework and put in lots of time, at the right time. Not because its easy. for those of you that just fundamentally disagree with being regulated on what kind of deer to shoot, we are never going to change your mind, just like I might never be able to change your mind on whether or not you think abortion is right or wrong.

[psepuncher]

Thanks for your reply trigger.

The kids that geta free pass to shoot anything

unrestricted only get 4 days to do so correct?

and as far as the population of deer. All areas are different. If that area will not support the number at which it stands. then it should be any deer is fair game.

And as far as not hunting there and caring what goes on there. It will affect the whole state.

[Musky Buck]

Just curious but what are the taxes on your land in east bethel ? My friends are outrageous ? But, back to no hunting the rut, selfishly I'd prefer it, I'd have way more deer to pursue as I have 3 wintering grounds kind of cover. Some would be sol many years the colder/snowier the way fewer deer the marginal habitats would hold. Did I read Nov. 13th is Wisc. opener ? Did someone say they hunt out of the rut ? Being further south geographically meaning 1/3 of MN is further north and I've read forever Nov. 9th is the peak of the rut and seeing Wisc. bucks with fully swollen necks over the years, did I misread something somewhere ? I guess to me a fork is a fork is a fork whether its shot November 4th or 14th or 24th.

[Getanet]

Yes, thanks Trigger.

To Psepuncher's point, plenty of people would like this implemented state wide. http://www.hotspotoutdoors.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2299455/2/For_or_Against_antler_point_re

[psepuncher]

{they're not bad for living on 65 acres all wooded in the Northern Metro}

Thanks Getanet,

From what I understand an AR was implemented in 2005 in some state parks. From there we are looking at South East MN as of today, tomorrow may change something else. That's not speculation, that's a fact.

[eyeguy 54]

"mule deer conservation area" Are you sure that isn't Wyoming?

I thought that was weird too.

I think it was Nebraska! oops, I'm on meds. lol I'll find WI, I know I liked it.

WI 2010 bow till nov 18 then no go during rifle season.

Personally I don't mind what MN does. I love to hunt in ND.

•Bow - Sept. 18 - Nov. 18 and Nov. 29 - Jan. 9, 2011

•Gun - Nov. 20 - Nov. 28

•Muzzleloader - Nov. 29 - Dec. 8

•Youth Deer Hunt - Oct. 9 - 10

•Statewide Antlerless Hunt - Dec. 9 - Dec. 12

[CC Hurl]

For me it does not matter. I do hunt down in the south east as well as central MN and have had no complaints about what the DNR does with the gun and or bow issue. I do however have an issue with the early management hunt as it happens in the central area I hunt. Nothing worse that starting to pattern your target only to have your plan blown out of the water at mid October.

However now with the point restiction in the south east I will call it even with the DNR as I strongly support that idea and that area is private property and the early youth hunt should not affect me much. At least not as much as the next three years will in respect to the nice bucks that will be crusing around in an area that allready holds monsters.

Let the gunners hunt the rut too, don't matter to me. I just choose not to be part of so many in the woods at once and will hunt with the sliver sticker as long as I am able.

[lakevet]

Does anyone know why the DNR didn't do a special regs hunt that moved the hunt to after the peak of the rut? They tried several other's but not what I consider the most important one. The special regs they did select initially were not popular, but hunters acceptance increased to 50% or a little more with time. They then took this 50% acceptance to recommend zone wide and ultimately what will be state wide changes.

It seems that there is a strategy used by the dnr. Select special regulations,run them in special hunts for several years, get it up to a 50% approval (not a large majority), then implement them in the corner of the state where a vocal group is pushing for the new regulation. Let it run for a year or two, then roll it out state wide. I believe it's called "cooking frogs" and "divide and conquer". It is what it is, and they have a tough job trying to keep us all happy at least part of the time.

I would like to see a post peak rut special hunt area (no hunting, esp rifle) during the average peak of the rut.

Any ideas on how to make that happen?

I would also want to see ONE regulation change in an area at a time, so the effect can be MEASURED and not be opinion. Having multiple regulation changes at the same time as was done in Zone 3 makes it hard to determine accurately the effect of each regulation change.

lakevet

[96trigger]

I am not dillusional guys. I know that if this is successful and the states population gets back to where it should be in some areas, that this could go statewide. I am sure that is a very real possibility. Almost all of the kids that I have talked to are in highschool, these regs will effect most of them, I never talked to any jr. high kids about it as the regs do not effect them and they can still shoot anything.

I really didn't want to sound like a donkey when I responded, but I am to the point where like any polar issue there will be two sides. When those two sides fundamentally disagree, it will be hard to find any compromise. I do respect your opinions, and I hope this Southeast experiment works. I don't forsee this happening statewide for some time as there are too many lottery areas around yet. My whole point has been that down here, if you want venison, shoot a doe, they are plentiful. If you want to shoot a buck, it will have to meet the new standards, my belief is that this will not change hunting much at all. Some people might actually learn to enjoy watching and not shooting the firsst little buck that walks by. Bowhunting, I learned more by watching deer and letting them pass than by shooting any deer.

[psepuncher]

only 4 days for kids to take any unrestricted type of deer

and it's during the early antlerless season {EA}.

how convienient for lazy man laws.

All of the kids I talked to really could care less about what deer thay take.

They get a rush with a twig snap from a squirrel.

[nonteepical]

Myth 's about the rut???

(1/2) > >>

SwietsRick:

Myth #1 The peak rut is the best time to take a buck. It’s easy to have a Pavlovian response to the words peak rut. We can’t help it. Decades of magazine articles and deer-camp conversations have created a conditioned response that makes us take our vacations during the height of the whitetail breeding season.

Instead, we should be taking off a little earlier. Bucks are actually most mobile and vulnerable just prior to the most intense breeding activity, during a seven- to 10-day period called the “seeking” or “chasing” phase of the rut. By contrast, the very heart of the whitetail breeding season can bring some pretty lousy hunting because a large percentage of bucks are likely to be holed up with receptive does.

According to noted biologist and whitetail expert Grant Woods, the seeking and chasing phase is a time when bucks are raring to go but few does are yet in estrus. As a result, anxious bucks can be found on their feet at almost any time of day—checking scrapes, making rubs, and seeking and chasing does. “For anyone who knows their hunting area and its deer well,” Woods says, “this is the best time to take a buck.” My own experience has certainly confirmed this: The last four trophy bucks I’ve killed with my bow have all fallen during the seeking and chasing phase. I’d choose that period to hunt instead of the peak rut every time.

Myth #2 Rutting bucks are impossible to pattern. Deer hunters rarely complain about the rut, but when they do, this is usually their gripe. It happens because once does begin coming into estrus, bucks do indeed leave their home areas, abandon their rub lines and scrapes, and begin traipsing over the countryside in search of ready mates.

But bucks don’t wander haphazardly. Rather, they move quite predictably from one doe family group to another. Larger bucks especially, which travel less than immature ones, will almost never be far from the females. So, just as you might set up near a rub line during the early season, now you need to find the does and stay close by.

Stephen F. Austin State University researcher and noted whitetail expert James Kroll does just that. “I try to work out the movement patterns of as many does as possible during the preseason. When a buck shows up in these areas during the rut, he will be in attendance for the next day or so, and there will be other bucks in the vicinity as well.” In other words, Kroll patterns the bucks by patterning the does.

Myth #3 When the action is over, the rut is over. Just about every serious whitetail hunter has spent days watching deerless woods in mid-November and thought, The rut must be over. More likely, it is at its apex. Today’s expert hunters refer to this peak-rut lull as the “lockdown,” and it’s one of the most difficult times to fill your tag.

When a buck senses that a doe is coming into estrus, he chases her into an area of remote or rugged cover where other bucks are less likely to find her. Once there, he’ll “tend” the doe—that is, mate with and stay near her—until she no longer accepts him. In the meantime, the pair moves very little. The result is an overall slowdown in the action. But the rut isn’t done. A little patience, in fact, can pay off very handsomely because some bucks will resume actively seeking does soon.

Myth #4 You might as well stay home during the post-rut. Not if you want to tag a trophy. Although it’s almost certain that you’ll see fewer bucks immediately after peak breeding than you would during the seeking and chasing phase, recent research by Mickey Hellickson, chief biologist at Texas’ renowned King Ranch, has revealed an excellent reason to keep hunting—and to bring a set of rattling horns with you.

“We rattled to deer during three specific periods: just prior to peak breeding, during peak breeding, and for several weeks after,” Hellickson says. “While the number of responses in the post-breeding period wasn’t as high, the deer that responded were much more likely to be mature. These bucks are still actively seeking does.”

This study mirrors the experience of Iowa whitetail expert and videographer Don Kisky, who has shot some of his best bucks during the post-rut. “If I see a buck in that week or so after the lockdown period, it’s usually a nice one,” he says. “And in each case, the big deer I’ve killed then were moving from 10:30 A.M. to 2:30 P.M. If you can stay on stand all day, or at least through the midday period, you can definitely kill a monster whitetail.”

Myth #5 The primary rut lasts about a month. This is Nature’s plan, as whitetail does have a roughly 28-day estrous cycle. But when doe numbers get out of control, which is a problem in many areas, the rut can last far longer than that. Biologist Grant Woods studied a property in New York’s Adirondacks where hunters had harvested almost no does for years. “The rut there lasted nearly four months,” he says. “In contrast, we studied a more balanced deer herd in Georgia and found that 95 percent of does were bred within a four-week period, with 50 to 60 percent of that breeding occurring during a 10-day spike.”

Why does this matter? “There are many advantages, both for deer and hunters, when the rut is intense and concentrated, as it usually is in a balanced herd,” Woods says. “A short rut is less stressful on bucks, for example, allowing them to recover and survive the winter better. Hunters benefit because they see much more intense rutting behavior, which makes most modern rut tactics—including rattling, calling, and using scents—more effective.”

On the other hand, if your area has a low buck-to-doe ratio, the rut will probably last longer, but aggressive tactics are less likely to work. Instead, still-hunt the fringes of doe feeding areas or sit all day on a funnel leading to these spots. Patience is the key—and the belief that during the rut, your luck can turn at any second.

[Crappie Rage]

How about this comprimise.

Start the firearms season on the Saturday that falls on the 8th through the 14th. One less week during the rut but still in the rut for both the bowhunters and the firearms. Also, would be a little colder for the gun season.

As a bowhunter this would make me happier. Throw in APR's for everyone state wide and I would be giddy. How about 4 point APR for the whole state except 3 point APR for Zone 1???

[TylerS]

I hunt bow, rifle and muzzeloader. I PERSONALLY would not mind if the rifle opener was later in November, if it would help ME see more mature deer in the future. Bow during the rut wouldn't amount to any major impact on buck numbers because of low harvest rates IMO.

Now on the other hand looking at my fellow hunter and not myself, I would be against any more regulations that limit hunter opportunity in the name of ANTLERS!! My god, what is our great sport and tradition coming to when we want to fight each other and take options away from our own. If your or my goal is to increase antler size then we need to do it ourselves through restain and recruting others to do the same. It will take time, effort and frustation. Isn't that how we come to appreciate things we have more, through hard work?

I see these regulation proposals(later season/APR)as hunters whom are looking for the easy way, no work on there part, way of getting what they want. I know I may have insluted some whom shouldn't be, but it how I see it. I have heard the "its better for the herd" argument, underneth it all, it still come down to one main goal, larger antlers. That should not be the main reason to be a HUNTER, the HUNT should be!!

Of the 8 pages worth of discussions, this still is the best post I've seen.