Muzzleloaders with scopes legistlature bill-leave it alone

[bottom-bouncer]

Some of you people kill me. If you want a primative season then its time to outlaw in-lines,pellets, fiber optic sights,decoys,calls,tree stands,gps. Its called change either accept it or find something to do that will never change. If I were you I would be more concerned about how we as hunters or law makers, DNR. Are going to implement ways to increase the number of mature deer in our woods than worrying about scopes on muzzle loaders. Every one is so worried about scopes increasing the harvest rate or that more people will start muzzy hunting if they can use a scope. If you really want to help out the deer dont let kids have four days in october. And get all the guns modern or muzzy out of november!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rip_Some_Lip]

I agree with you bottom-bouncer. I guess most of you must fish without electronics, underwater cameras...etc. because that is the way they used to do it.

[Musky Buck]

Let's look back to when we had mature deer in our woods. Zone 4, 2 day or 4 turned into a cont. 9 day season. You chose to either rifle hunt or muzzy hunt. There were more safe havens for deer to mature in as they weren't hunted or developed or subdivided. We still had scopes, we still had compound bows, we still had scopeless muzzleloaders, but we all had way less opportunity and tags. The veteran hunters of yesterday are being replaced by a different kind of kid/teen/adult. It's a different era and with how much opportunity exists and how much more technology we have available we're lengthening the hunting possibilities state wide on the deer, I'm confused and being old school I actually enjoy looking for sheds as much as I enjoy deer hunting. I will probably follow my dad's footsteps and someday be done hunting as well. It's half as enjoyable as it was 15 years ago. If it's half that 15 years from now that'll do it. Seems ironic that it's less enjoyable now having all 3 deer seasons to hunt if you want vs. when I had 2 days only of rifle I enjoyed that so much more, maybe just appreciated it more. No to muzzy scopes, if anything go back to you muzzy or gun, not both.

[reddog]

Just look at how primitive bows are these days. If anything, there should be another bow season. One for primitive/bare bows and one for sighted bows.

[vister]

Some of you people kill me. If you want a primative season then its time to outlaw in-lines,pellets, fiber optic sights,decoys,calls,tree stands,gps. Its called change either accept it or find something to do that will never change. If I were you I would be more concerned about how we as hunters or law makers, DNR. Are going to implement ways to increase the number of mature deer in our woods than worrying about scopes on muzzle loaders. Every one is so worried about scopes increasing the harvest rate or that more people will start muzzy hunting if they can use a scope. If you really want to help out the deer dont let kids have four days in october. And get all the guns modern or muzzy out of november!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

holy [PoorWordUsage]. Someone else would like to see more mature deer in the woods!!! Above all new proposed bills, I feel having more mature deer in the woods should be the number one topic. We should have a healthy balance of deer in the woods before we care how they are harvested!!!!!!

[bottom-bouncer]

We mite not agree on many things vister. But mature deer is one that I will never disagree with you on.

[leech~~]

I think disabled guys 55 and older with a Cross Bow permit should be able to use a Scope on a Muzzleloader!!!

[bottom-bouncer]

I think disabled guys 55 and older with a Cross Bow permit should be able to use a Scope on a Muzzleloader!!!

Only if they promise to bring at least 5 underpriviledged kids hunting over the special 4 day hunt.

[lakevet]

Let those over 55 use a scope only if they qualify for a permit due to certifiable poor vision, just like everyone else. Getting a permit is easy if you have a legit vision problem. If your vision is that bad you are going to be in the Doc's office at least once a year. Just ask when there. With present regulations allowing permits for those impaired vision and a willingness to practice/work up a good load/invest in quality open sights, 99% of hunters should be good to 100 yds with a rest. Many lack the commitment that it takes. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want an valid excuse to shoot a bunch. It's just plain fun!

60,000 muzzy hunters times $80 a scope=$4,800,000 reasons why someone would push this idea for personal financial gain. If you saw this kind of market, wouldn't you have a representative push for this/enter a bill to allow scoped muzzys? Would you care about the tradition or intention of a muzzleloader hunt? No. You would have your scope on every hunting show you could and create demand for your scope by making hunters feel dissatisfied that they can't get a deer without it.

Just my opinion, but you are not a muzzleloader HUNTER using your skills to get close enough if you need a crutch like a scope to make up for your unwillingness to work on your hunting skills to close the distance. Any deer during muzzy is should be considered a great accomplishment. A mature buck at this time really gives you bragging rights, if that is what drives you. Personally for me it gets down to more technology flattens the learning curve increasing the pumpkin army who we tried to leave behind when we gave up rifle to switch to muzzy only. Maybe its time for a "primitive season" for us rare few who would rather hunt under difficult conditions with old technology that has limited range when hardly anyone else would cause the success rate is so low. What drives us is tough hunting with few deer which acts as a discouragement to most hunters. This results in the only hunters you meet having your respect and courtesy and you their's because you save a bond and appreciation of experiencing "the way it used to be".

Funny how it seems that those who want more mature bucks, also want to expand the means of take (crossbow, scoped muzzy, etc) and the opportunity to take (being able to hunt all seasons rifle muzzy archery in all zones around the state) which increases pressure on the buck population. Go back to pick one firearms season in only one permit area. No more season hopping and zone hopping all over the state. That will allow more bucks to survive. And let us low tech guys have some peace and quiet in the woods with the deer that have survived all the other seasons. Just my opinion.

lakevet

[bottom-bouncer]

Carefull lake vet! Some of us who want more mature deer are not gun hunters in any form. And there are also many who are gun hunters that would like to see more mature deer. And no I do not want to see cross bows made legal during the archery season. Crossbows during archery season would drastically increase the number of wanna be's in the woods in the fall (before firearms season) when the weather is still pleasant. Scopes on muzzy's the number of people who will decide to give it a try far fewer do to the cold and snow that time of the year. And I am all for pick a season rifle or muzzy you can even through archery in there as well if it will make people happy then lets do it but lets also move the seasons (rifle-muzzy) to december.

[96trigger]

I'm not sure where all this unrest comes from. I'm sure many of you are like me. You just like to hunt whitetails. It doesn't matter if I have one weekend or 6 weekends. If the deer population is high enough, I'm going to take two deer a year. This allows me to be choosy as to what I want. This allows me to pass on those smaller bucks that some of us put a premium on. This means, that since I started hunting, I more often than not eat my either sex tag, holding out, going from season to season looking for a good buck. The person that just likes to deer hunt likes having the option. I have a bow, a firearm, and a ML, I love to go all three, there is not difference in me taking two deer just during the firearm, than those that take their limit in deer in one season. The end result is still the same. We can use inlines, pellets, sabots, and fiber optic sites. I don't think the number of deer that get shot will greatly increase due to the use of scopes. I also don't think that the number of hunters will greatly increase because they can put a scope on their gun. Weather, cost, time, and the fact that some already have filled their tags, will keep the ML numbers in check. Last year I couldn't even hunt with the ML last year because my tags were used. This was true for a number of people that I know. Again, none of my deer guns have scopes, I don't even know if I would put them on. I can see the points for people who don't have the deer population. Maybe in a couple of years, this will have to be another zone 3 test situation. See if the numbers really do increase.

[Gordie]

I personally dont want the scope on the smokepole and I think it helps keep a lot of people from hunting the season which is fine with me.

Were lucky enough to get to use Hy-vis sights as it is. Some states dont even allow those on the smokepoles.

When I started hunting blackpowder I thought that scopes should be allowed but with the introduction of the in-line (Which is what I shoot) it made it a lot easier for everyone to hunt with them.

I can pretty much bet that this discusion wouldn't be taking place if we could only use flintlocks or sidelock guns.

I would also like to see a early blackpowder season as a posed to a later season and really would like to see it be done with flintlocks and sidelocks only.

[Musky Buck]

You know what's bizarre a bit is I shoot an old fashioned muzzy and wouldn't want an in-line. I love pouring the blackpowder down the barrel, ramming a 370 grain maxiball down broadway, messing with those fingernail busting caps, cleaning my barrel with boiling water, pulling the hammer back and usually resetting it as I've seen 2 mature bucks in many years of trying it. All of that to me is fun, that way I'm never very disappointed that I didn't connect on a deer. We already have sights on our muzzy's so why scopes oh I get it some want to crank up that long bomb which to me would be anything over an honest 100 yards. Or why is it again ?

[vister]

i may not be too primitive myself musky, but if its any consilation, i shoot loose powder in my inline muzzy blackhorn 209 to be exact

[Musky Buck]

Right on Vister and I certainly would've bought an in-line if they were available because I've pondered going out west with a muzzy so I would've wanted a scope possibility. I love the loose powder, really stinks after shooting, cloud of smoke is awesome, I've never had a misfire yet, at the end of the season you have to shoot it to empty it and it's fired everytime, same with dad, but he really barely goes out. I'm just a bit stupified as to why scopes would be allowed for a statewide 16 day season. You know what, whatever the regs are next year and the year after that I'll be ok with them and hunt by them, bottomline.

[Steve Z]

Since the season changed in the old zone 4 to 9 days I put a scope on the inline so I could at least see the deer I might get a chance at. Open sights just don't work too well with my eyesight anymore and I do not want to wound an animal. Scopes for ML season? Probably not. But a properly sighted in ML in the regular firearm season, even in the slug zone, was my way to enjoy both worlds.

[subzero]

After reading this thread it looks like the scope on the muzzleloader really isn't the issue. It looks like the issue is weather there are more people in the woods during the season. Agreeing or disagreeing with scopes on Muzzleloaders should be based on more than if there are 10,000 people hunting or 70,000.

[fr0sty]

I agree with you. I also believe that's the same reason for much of the opposition to proposed cross bow changes.

After reading this thread it looks like the scope on the muzzleloader really isn't the issue. It looks like the issue is weather there are more people in the woods during the season. Agreeing or disagreeing with scopes on Muzzleloaders should be based on more than if there are 10,000 people hunting or 70,000.

[Wanderer]

So maybe the push for scopes on MLs comes from the hoard of shotgun/rifle hunters who migrated into the ML season when tags became available along with the easier in-lines? Is that where this is coming from? Having a tough time adjusting to open sights after using a scope for so long?

BTW, I am one who migrated. And I have used a sidelock also so I understand the changes.

And yes, to the above statements. That is very true. People enjoy the primitive weapon seasons for the lighter competition in the woods. Also some rely on those seasons for access to land they cannot hunt when "everyone else" is out for firearms season.

To the arguments of seeing deer better in low light? Sunset is sunset. Or rise for that matter. You should be able to see your deer clearly with any sight at the close of legal shooting hours.

Take the survey on line and express your view. The DNR wants to know how YOU feel.

Good luck everybody.

[paco]

I have had a great time reading through everyones thoughts about this topic and would like to thank everyone for throwing in their 2 cents. I have always been 100% against letting people put scopes on there ML its not that I don't want people to have success out in the woods but I feel if the reason someone is not going to hunt this specialty season is because they can't use a scope then I would rather not have them out in the woods with me. The ML season has become very popular the way it is and I will be the first one to admit that I would rather have the woods to myself I just believe giving people the option to put a scope on their gun would create more people that have less respect for others and turn the ML season into another zoo just like the firearm season and that would be a shame.

[Musky Buck]

Scope or no scope, in my area it's not quite a zoo but a spin off of the Barnes and Noble Circus. Sad to see my dad and some uncles have quit deer hunting all together because of the zoo factor. They lost their muzzleoader season and that ended it.

[icehousebob]

I'm old enough(61) to remember why the muzzle loading season was started. A bunch of us buckskinner rifle match guys wanted a hunt that was primitive and wasn't over-run with others. Many of us built our own rifles and competed with them all summer. We knew our weapons. We wanted the rules to say that you picked only one hunt, modern or primitive. My rifle is a repo of an 1840 Sam Hawkin that I built myself. I carved the powder horn and sewed the shooting bag. I mold my own roundballs. The first time I saw an in-line(zip gun) and a plastic powder horn, I thought it was bending the rules. If you want to shoot sabots in scope mounted zip guns, fine. Just do it in the modern gun season.

[Heartman]

Muzzleloaders ought to be open sighted. If'n you need a scope, shoot yer' MZ with the scope during the rifle season - that's what it becomes with a scope on it.

[Wanderer]

I'm old enough(61) to remember why the muzzle loading season was started. A bunch of us buckskinner rifle match guys wanted a hunt that was primitive and wasn't over-run with others. Many of us built our own rifles and competed with them all summer. We knew our weapons. We wanted the rules to say that you picked only one hunt, modern or primitive. My rifle is a repo of an 1840 Sam Hawkin that I built myself. I carved the powder horn and sewed the shooting bag. I mold my own roundballs. The first time I saw an in-line(zip gun) and a plastic powder horn, I thought it was bending the rules. If you want to shoot sabots in scope mounted zip guns, fine. Just do it in the modern gun season.

Call me a nostalgia freak but that's exactly the scenario I was hoping to experience when I built my Hawken so many years ago. I wanted to hunt in buckskin garb also with my possibles pouch hanging off my shoulder like a murse I don't think those days will ever be possible in this state again. Other states with less orange requirements could be an option though.

I've actually parked my in line the past couple years and went back to archery for the late season. There has been an opportunity since to take my personal best buck during the ML season (low light) while standing with my bow. I have no doubt if I had my ML with a scope, that 12 pointer would have been mine. It was just too much of shot for me with my bow. And I'm fine with that.

As it is, this is my personal best ML deer taken at a range of about 70 yards, iron sights not fiber, in the woods, close to the end of legal light. One double lung shot and I watched him expire.

I've thought about upgrading to TC Pro Hunter or something but really in retrospect I might want to go back to the 'Ol Hawken and just load it with power belts if I get back to muzzle loading again. I do like the better accuracy of improved bullets over round balls. That's where my ethics for good shot placement kick in.

[icehousebob]

Wanderer, thanks for seeing my point of view on this. My eyes are getting old and I've opened the notch in my rear sight and painted my front blade with finger nail polish to help me see them. My next step is to put a tang mounted peep sight on a 50 cal. Tennesee long rifle that I built many years ago. When I have to go to scopes, I have three scope mounted slug guns and a few center fires in my racks that I'll use in the modern season. Let's try to keep the ML hunt to the traditionalists.