Andover Family Believes Cougar Killed Lab

[Dave S]

Sorry soldoncass, but a fall while that close to the ground WILL NOT break a dogs ribs.

It is true that a cat will use it's back claws to rake and push off on it's prey, but it's not a tactic used to "flip" their prey.

I'd like to see the Cougar vs. wolf video that people have mentioned.

[chaffmj]

Don't bother with the cougar wolf video it shows absolute nothing in my opinion.

[Dave S]

I only found 2 that could possibly be the subject of discussion. One is nothing mroe than an animation, the other is from the Stouffer brothers and like you said, shows nothing to base a conclusion.

[chaffmj]

There is a link on page 3 of this thread. The posting is by weedshark I think.

[Dave S]

That is the video from the Stouffer Bros. They admit that it was "semi" staged at the beginning of the vid I watched.

Nowhere in that video did it show the cat flipping the wolf over in a move that was enough to break it's neck or ribs. The actual flip was a result of the wolf trying to reposition itself, which obviously didn't work out so great.

[BucksnDucks]

k next topic this one is getn quite old already!

[CANOPY SAM]

I think you guys are over-looking the most obvious explanation for this event.

There is only one living thing that could inflict this type of damage to another animal; broken neck, one small puncture wound, broken ribs with internal organ injury, and with virtually invisible stealth.

Chuck Norris!

If you look really closely, that print in the sand, it's almost exactly the same size as the Ninja masters right paw.

Yep. It was Chuck Norris alright! Poor doggie.

Now I suppose all the "Chuck Norris Experts" are going to come crawling out of the woodwork to refute my most educated deduction.

Sorry guys. I couldn't resist....

[caseymcq]

... That feels like a dig on me along with the arm chair comments...

[Weed Shark]

Casey- Nice post.

***

Just wanted to say I respect all opinions, even if they tend to differ from mine.

I only throw out two-bit speculation. I've been all washed up before, and while I can't remember exactly when...I'm sure my wife could refresh my memory.

***

I heard another story last weekend. My sister-in-law's brother was bow hunting near St. Peter this fall, and was taking aim when a cougar chased the deer away.

[hockeybc69]

Entertaining read indeed.

Kind of like this report of cougars in Elk River last year, as reported by the Elk River Star News.

by Don Heinzman

Special to the Star News

Two and possibly three young cougars are believed to be prowling around the tall grass in the northeast corner of Elk River.

They were captured on film during the deer hunting season by Al LaFontaine, who had set up a video camera to record deer in the area.

“I’m no expert,” he said, but added he has seen them at least twice on the Richard Gruys farm.

While hunting deer, LaFontaine spotted a large cat in the distance and watched it for an hour as it came closer to him.

“It looked like a tiger cat only five times bigger sporting a long tail with black rings on it,” he said.

The second time LaFontaine was hunting deer when he saw the cougar coming toward him. He whistled and the big cat’s ears perked up, and when he whistled again the cougar took off.

He last saw them during the hunting season. “If you went out there now you would see them again. . . there are tracks all around there.”

Gruys has seen LaFontaine’s video. “The cougar looks dark on the video, but you can see it. It has a long tail.”

Gruys said he has seen cougar tracks by his garage door. “They came up to eat the birdseed,” he said.

So far, there’s no evidence the cougars have attacked anyone. The men have seen a carcass of what appears to be a coyote.

Meanwhile, Gruys has contacted Mayor Stephanie Klinzing, wondering what the city is going to do about the cougars.

Through her office a game warden was contacted. He said not to worry about the cougars. He did suggest looking up in the trees where they may seek refuge from the wind.

Gruys asked if by chance the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) placed the cougar in the area to help thin the deer population. A DNR spokesperson said they do not stock cougars to thin the deer population.

The spokesperson said it’s possible a cougar could be in Sherburne County and said other sightings of the animal have been reported.

A game warden said the animals probably came from the badlands of North Dakota. They will travel 400 miles, usually following a river.

Gruys said he’s concerned because his farm where the cougars have been sighted is close to the Greater Metropolitan Girl Scout camp.

[BobT]

Quote:

"I have seen...",

Three years ago today I observed a cougar sitting out in our fields through 10X binoculars from about 300 yards. The next day, I went out pheasant hunting and decided to check out the cougar's tracks and track it for a ways to see where it went. As I suspected, it went east to a 960 acre WMA just a 1/4 mile away and continued toward the Sauk River.

I have to admit that until just a few minutes ago I had not watched the news video. It is really difficult to judge what may have made the track in the sand but I have an opinion for what it's worth.

1.

An adult cougar's track is about the size of a man's palm or larger. Without anything in the video to provide a size reference it's impossible to tell how big the track is.

2.

Looking at the print in the sand, you'll notice what appears to be four toe impressions, arranged close together, and all forward similar to a human footprint. A feline print does have four toes but they are arranged in an arc stretching about 180 degrees.

3.

Also, notice that the heal or pad impression is rather large and elongated rectangular making up about 75%-80% of the total print, again more like a human print. I'm not suggesting that it is a human print by the way, because I don't believe it is. Just using it as a reference. The print in the video is overall rectangular in shape. The print from the pad of a feline would be triangular and only making up about 50% or less of the total print. A feline print is nearly round in shape, not rectangular.

4.

Finally, as the camera zoomed in the track I noticed a couple things. They started out from a rather significant distance and zoomed in on the track.

A.

First, what are all of the other impressions in the sand? I would be inclined to believe they were probably prints from cats and dogs that have been in the sandbox at one time or another. The print they zoomed in on was about the same size if not smaller than the other impressions. This leads me to believe that the track is not from an adult cougar because it would be about 4X the size of any domestic dog or cat.

B.

If you pause the video right when they start to zoom in, you'll notice on the right side at least three human shoe impressions. Now, I wear a size 11 shoe and when I tracked that cougar three years ago, those prints were wider than my footprint. Again, since there's no size reference in the video, you can't tell if those human tracks are from adults or children but in either case, the animal track is small by comparison.

C.

Finally, as I look at the paused video I notice there is only one track. Surely, I should be able to make out a few more in that video shot if the animal was there so recently.

From my experience the tracks look more they are from a raccoon and certainly not from a feline.

[hockeybc69]

The week after, they reported this. Nothing like doing some investigation on the report before publishing that and getting people all up in arms.

by Don Heinzman

ECM Publishers

Three wildlife animal experts weighed in on the sighting of cougars in the northeast corner of Elk River and said without a doubt the animals in the video in question are a big house cat and two gray foxes.

Richard Gruys, who said he has seen cougar tracks and the animals in the video taken by his neighbor Al LaFontaine, insists the animals are more than just a big house cat and foxes.

LaFontaine said last week that he has seen the animal close up and coming toward him, and says it looked like a cougar, but said he is no expert.

Last week, the Star News ran the video in question on its Web site, which drew lots of comments. To see this video, click here.

Contacted by the Star News, Dan Stark, a wolf specialist at the Department of Natural Resources, reviewed the video and said the first take of the video is a house cat in the wild. The animals in the second clip are two foxes, he said.

A retired wildlife biologist from Sarasota, Fla. who was sent the video clip wrote: “I can say with no equivocation that the “cougars” you have in this video are gray fox.”

Rick James, a wildlife biologist, said in an e-mail to the editor, “The first video is an obvious house cat and the second video is a couple of fox.”

Even an Elk River high school biology class reviewed the photos and concluded the animals are foxes.

Gruys said he has had phone calls from people who say they’ve seen it. He says he’s seen cougar tracks by his garbage can. “This is more than just a farm cat,” he said Saturday.

Stark said verified reports of cougars in Minnesota are rare. The most recent one was two years ago in the northwestern part of the state near Thief River Falls, where one with a radio collar from South Dakota was found.

He knows of no resident population of cougars in Minnesota, citing an extensive wolf survey which showed no cougar sightings.

It’s possible, but not likely, that a cougar could be traveling through the area in search of a female, he said.

Based on what he saw in the video, he would not come out and examine the situation in Elk River, he said.

Stark said a cougar rarely attacks an individual and is likely to run in the other direction.

James says, “Cougar sightings seem to be very popular but they are most always inaccurate, even in areas where cougars actually exist. Misidentification is the rule rather than the exception. There is far too much credulous and gullible news reporting of false cougar sightings across the country, but especially in the east where no cougars are known to exist.”

Students in Phil Johnson’s Elk River high school biology class discussed the video clip and concluded they had seen two foxes. Biology student Desirae Weimer in an e-mail said that they compared the video with stuffed red and gray foxes in Johnson’s classroom to a picture of a cougar on the Internet. This convinced most of the 30-plus students that the animals were gray foxes.

[hockeybc69]

And the video of the "cougars" in Elk River.

[caseymcq]

It has already been mentioned but it was tough to guage the size of the paw print in the video. After I looked at it again though, I thought it might look like a bear paw print. Bears are not uncommon in the area (as stated on the video). Maybe to dog got between a sow and a cub (or cubs). Mamma bear can get pretty nasty when she thinks her baby (or babies) are threatened.

Just another hypothesis (speculation )

[BobT]

Because you can only see one and it appears quite small, I have to wonder if the print is even related to the incident at all.

Incidentally, a raccoon print does look like a small bear's print. If it was an adult bear paw it would be at least as large but likely quite a bit larger than the shoe prints in the sand even if they were made by an adult man.

[caseymcq]

Because you can only see one and it appears quite small,...

That why I was thinking maybe a sow with cub(s). Hard to tell just how big it was. I don't really know how big a cub's print would be at that point in their life, but just a SWAG.

Typically black bear front paw tracks are 7 inches and hind foot tracks are 8 inches on the normal big end (one of the fairly well fed fellows but not a monster). My shoe size is 10 1/2 and my foot is roughy 10 inches long. An adult bb paw that was bigger than my foot would be a rather big dude. A decent size sow would typically have a paw print a little smaller than my hand print.

[Black_Bay]

If the print showed claw marks it isn't any kind of a North American cat.

[nolte]

I find these sorts of discussions very interesting. Just a few opinions on comments from this thread that differ from my experineces.

The typical black bear's front pad is roughly 4 to 4 1/2 inches wide. Some are larger, some smaller. A very large black bear will have a pad that is 6 inches wide, which will most likely be a 400 lb class bear. The largest width bear track I have ever seen was 7 1/4 inches which turned out to be a 580lb dressed bear.

I don't think racoon tracks look much like bear tracks. Racoons have long skinny toes and bear have round toes.

I grew up following my dad around trapping and have also spent my entire life having trailhounds. Most times a guy spends more time looking for tracks than actually running them, so you get a bit of practice checking them out. And I still routinely get them wrong. Last winter I had another guy call me in to look at this huge bobcat track he had found in the snow while deer hunting. It turned out to be a porcupine.

Now about this cougar business. Like I said, we hunt trailhounds all winter on bobcats and coyotes and I personally know dozens of guys who do the same from Brainerd to Hurley, down to Green Bay and back to the Cities. Of all these people I know who hunt pretty much any time there is runnable snow, I only know of 1 confirmed cougar track and one other one that was probably a cougar but could not be confirmed. That's it in 20 years of looking at snow. These are the same guys who head out to Western states to actually hunt cougars, so we/they know what we're looking for. Just some food for thought, even out West you can go days and hundreds of miles without finding a cougar track. One exception is the Black Hills of SD, it has a very high number of cougars.

So could this have been a cougar? Sure it could have been anything is possible, but the odds are really, really stacked against it. I don't need CSI Pet Division to tell me that.

[Arctic]

I don't see a reason to protect them. But then again I could see the DNR trying to transplant and keep a healthy population of Grizzly Bears in the BWCA at some point and time just to argue about the plausible fact they wouldn't hurt the NE MN moose population.

I don't think that the DNR is in the business of transplanting non-native critters into the state. The BWCA is managed by the US Forest Service.

Cougars are already a protected animal in Minnesota, and have been for many years.

[so haaad]

Champlin police just spotted an adult cougar and have video of it. Last seen heading towards the Mississippi.

[Realtor Boy]

Its funny how all those thought it couldnt have been a cougar that did went after that dog...

This cougar is huge!

Walking right through a front yard...

Cougar siting in Champlin

[soldoncass]

Odds just went UP...A LOT....police video, right across the river from Lab incident. Definitely a COUGAR....hmmmmmm...a BIG ONE.

[Dave S]

Estimated at 200 lbs. That is a big cat.

As far as being responsible for killing the dog, it's possible now that there's evidence of a cat in the area. Other than that, there wasn't sufficient evidence at the time to prove it was a cat attack.

[pushbutton]

lf you listen to the last few sentences, the dnr suggest it may be just an escaped pet.

maybe they can track it down with a can of tuna and a fuzzy mouse on a string.

[waterbound]

The best part of that video was the kids hitting the ice with the sticks! Also, it's interesting to see a cougar like that on video; I wonder if it's a released pet, just passing through or what. Hopefully if the case is that this cougar killed anyone's pet it can be caught and relocated.