Andover Family Believes Cougar Killed Lab

[nofishfisherman]

For sure not a cougar track. If you watch the video compare what they show to this diagram of a real cougar track.

After watching the video again I also noticed that the owner said the dog didn't even bark. I'm guessing if there was a wild animal involved the dog would have more then likely barked or made some noise. Even if the lab couldn't bark the other little dog would have been barking since it was also supposedly out in the yard when all of this happened.

[BobT]

That dog would have been fighting for its life! There would have certainly been quite a ruckus to say the least. We must remember that a dog is a predator too and one as big as a lab is not an easy prey even for a cougar. It is also not common for predators to prey on other predators. It's too risky to take the chance. Doesn't mean it wouldn't happen if for nothing more than territorial quarrels.

In any case, the dog would not have gone down quietly unless the cougar got the upper hand, or should I say jaw, and managed to ambush and clamp down on its throat. In this case, the dog would have suffered no more injury than a chocking and neck wounds. Certainly not broken ribs and internal injuries. To doa that would have required a major fight and again, it wouldn't have been a quiet event.

[Weed Shark]

Cougars eat dogs all the time, they're food. Do an internet search.

No mention was made of internal injuries to organs in the news report. Surface Tension said that.

When a cougar attacks, the prey often never has time to react. Cookie might been else where in the yard and never saw it happen.

The impact of a cougar could break a rib. I would not be surprised if a cougar can squeeze hard enough to break a rib. This Video of a cougar killing a timberwolf could explain the broken neck, broken rib, and puncture wounds in the rear leg. Note the Cougar's hold at the end.

[nolte]

I have friends out West that hunt Lions with dogs. From what they have told me from seeing numerous lion kills, MT. Lions almost exclusively bite on the back of the neck to kill their prey. They don't suffocate by grabbing the throat. It's a quick snap to the spine and that's it. You will have a few punctures from the claws holding on the shoulders, but they don't use them to kill. They will then open up and eat the organs first. Most cats also seem to only use their back feet when they are fighting. I've seen house cats and bob cats both do it, so I suspect mt. lions would do it too.

I think the number of lions in MN and WI is greatly overestimated. Sure they are here, but it is very small transient population. I have friends who treed the mt. lion in WI last year that was on the news. I've spend hundreds of hours checking for tracks in the snow while bobcat and coyote hunting in WI and MN and know of at least another 40+ people that do the same. This was the first Lion track that anyone had seen in this are of WI. And lions are roaming travelers, so you would think if there were a lot of them we would come across them more often.

That is NOT a lion track. It looks a lot more doggish than cat. The toes are too much in line for a cat. If it's a bear, it's a real small one.

I'd much rather have a pile of lions around than wolves.

Weed, I wouldn't trust that video much as it's completely staged. A lion would rarely confront a wolf and it if did try it would sneak on it, not come up slowly in plain view.

[DTro]

I guess my thought is that whether it was a cat or not, does it matter?

The end result is still the same, the poor dog died. Whether it be via a car, bear, deer, wolf, or whatever.

It been pretty well documented and proved without a doubt that there are cats roaming around the Metro, I would hope that people still don’t deny this. Maybe it was a cat, I just don’t get all the hub bub.

I was told by a reliable source of a Mother and 2 kittens in my neighborhood. My reaction was, hey that’s pretty cool.

[nofishfisherman]

I'm with dtro,

In the end it really doesn't matter, the end result is still the same and its still sad.

While I don't think a cougar killed this dog I do believe there is a small population of them in MN. Thats not at all hard to believe. I believe once upon a time this area was the far edge of their territory so its pretty cool if they are able to come back into the area and survive.

Like was said earlier they are a roaming animal so they require huge territories so I doubt MN can support more then a small almost unnoticeable population of them.

Personally I'd love to see one, they are amazing animals.

[Harmonica Bear]

I agree with both of you.

The point I was really trying to make is the sensationalism in journalism. It’s rather amusing sometimes. Absolute zero proof it was cougar.

As a guy who has lost dogs to the road and live Andover I completely sympathize with the dog owner.

[JayinMN]

To make the cougar paranoid people happy I think the DNR should great a special cougar task force to deal with all the cougar complaints in the state. That way they can acknowledge to the public they are here, since they never denied it in the first place. Then they could set traps, hire people with hounds to chase them, spend thousand of dollars of tax payers money and spread even more mass hysteria among communities to investigate bogus claims. They need to do something to take these stories more serious and make the public happy.

The dog was hit by a car. If a cat or any predator would have got this dog, and was able the inflict all this internal damage there would be bite marks and claw marks all over the dog. It has one puncture to its left leg. I have scraped my fair share of dogs off the highway(no not my own). Most don't have much for external wounds because its the internal damage that killed them.

[DTro]

The point I was really trying to make is the sensationalism in journalism. It’s rather amusing sometimes.

Couldn’t agree more, and it upsets me to think how the much the media shapes people’s opinions and feelings.

Every once and a while you will happen upon a story that you have very close ties too, and it’s then you realize how far from the real story they usually are.

[Weed Shark]

Weed, I wouldn't trust that video much as it's completely staged. A lion would rarely confront a wolf and it if did try it would sneak on it, not come up slowly in plain view.

I know the video is staged, but it does show a typical cougar hold.

****

I think it is completely possible a cougar is the culprit (track, or no track).

DNRs in known cougar states still seem to get there work done, despite the much exaggerated flood of paranoid callers. All the people I know who have seen cougars never bother to mention it to the DNR, and why would they?

I'm done debating. There is a Doubting Thomas mindset on one side or the other.

My sympathies to the Andover family in any event.

[deadeye]

Its a bummer for the people who lost the dog, any way you look at it. Terrible to lose a dog without answers like that.

Im not sure what the hype is all about. Its pretty obvious they are here. They are a part of the environment just as we are and I can think of a lot of "invasive" species that do a lot more damage. Maybe they could help us out with the CWD problem? We havent got much for apex preditors besides cars around here so they fit the bill. IDK. Just another animal in the zoo.

Life goes on. Im way more worried about a drunk driver running me/my dog over than I am about a cat. I bet the chances of getting into a tangle with a cat are close the the same odds as lightning and so on. Besides, if you carry a catnip mouse im sure you could negotiate a deal with mr kitty.

[Weed Shark]

The lab's death is debatable.

No hype here. The story caught my eye because as I said in the original post, “I'm convinced a cat watched us take the dog out back on a leash to "do her business" for 4-5 nights in a row last week in Plymouth.”

I never armed myself with anything but a flashlight, and neither did my wife. We never stopped going back there. I believe my spaniel would have been in trouble without me. Before you laugh out loud at how paranoid I am, let me tell you I am a 47 year old seasoned sportsman with a big game article I wrote published in a major sporting publication this fall. My 55 year old outdoorsman friend from northern Minnesota, who has had both timberwolves and bear kill his livestock, strongly agrees (even persuaded me) that a cougar watched us.

I’ll just suggest we pay attention a little more these days.

[BobT]

Quote:

Im not sure what the hype is all about. Its pretty obvious they are here. They are a part of the environment just as we are and I can think of a lot of "invasive" species that do a lot more damage.

Actually, we are the invasive species. Before Europeans arrived in the new world the cougar was found from the southern tip of Alaska extending east to the Atlantic and everything south including all 48 lower US states, Central America, and South America. It was Europeans that eradicated them until today where they primarily inhabit the western part of the Canadian Rockies south through the western 1/3 of the lower 48 US states and south from there. They have recently been expanding their range eastward as far as Michigan and Indiana.

[Basseyes]

I've seen 2.

One in the Black Hills. That was at 2 am and in the head lights. 3 of us saw it and reported it latter to the Forest Service. And no there was no drinking involved. They appreciated it. It is a memory I'll never forget.

My dad and I saw a young one in NW MN and I will never report it to our beloved DNR. I told a trusted DNR person who works on our property about it. They told me we should have reported it. After seeing how people who see them are treated here in MN I'd bet there are many nature watchers like myself who see them and would never report them here.

I don't see a reason to protect them. But then again I could see the DNR trying to transplant and keep a healthy population of Grizzly Bears in the BWCA at some point and time just to argue about the plausible fact they wouldn't hurt the NE MN moose population.

They are an awesome animal and if you ever see one they will leave you with a lasting impression.

[deadeye]

BobT thats exactly what I was getting at. I guess brilliant minds think alike LOL...

Im not saying you shouldn't watch your back. I am careful wherever I go and its just good practice. Its just not worth getting too worked up about though.

Its pretty obvious they are here whether the dnr will admit it or not(they also said there are no lynx in the arrowhead but thats another story). They are living among the 2 million + in the metro and so far I can only think of a couple times that it has been negative. When I lived in ely, a cougar killed a horse just outside of town and nobody even heard that in the news because it was rural. Its just in the metro area it got a bit exciting because its something new to a lot of people.

[soldoncass]

I believe a cougar is MUCH MORE likely than a car. A dog that got hit with a car, broke its neck, wouldn't be able to go from the road ,up front, to the backyard to die. But a cougar attack is sudden, and a broken neck would be standard for a cougar, and the dog would not move from the attack site. I read a story a couple years ago, from out west....an older couple walked in a State or National Forest. He was attacked by a cougar, and only his wife beating the cat with a stick made it let go. The husband was over 200 #s and he said "he had me" by the back head/neck area and couldn't move. A black lab or a wolf is nothing to a big cougar....even a wolf defending it's food like that video showed. The wolf went for the throat...the cat was too quick and got the back of the neck....end of fight.

Sorry for the family.

[caseymcq]

... It is also not common for predators to prey on other predators...

Maybe I am not quite understanding what you mean here but it seems to be common around here (NE MN) for wolves to take down dogs. The wolves don't seem to have any reservations for attacking another predator.

This is a pretty interesting story. In the end it is all pretty much speculation whether or not it was a cat that took down the dog. Even with all the insightful input from the arm-chair wildlife biologists here we'll never be sure what really happened.

Too bad for the family who lost their dog.

[BobT]

But do they take them for food or for territory? I said it's not very common for a predator to PREY on other predators. I didn't say they it was uncommon for them to attack.

We're a predator but as big and powerful as they are, grizzlies rarely attack humans for food. They do attack for territory more than for food.

[Dave S]

But do they take them for food or for territory? I said it's not very common for a predator to PREY on other predators. I didn't say they it was uncommon for them to attack.

We're a predator but as big and powerful as they are, grizzlies rarely attack humans for food. They do attack for territory more than for food.

Which brings up a good point, a black lab would be nothing for a cougar to drag off if the dog was killed for food. That said, I don't believe they would have found the dog if a cougar was responsible.

[Realtor Boy]

I just watched this video because I live in Andover, I just figured out that this person is one of our neighbors. Very interesting because we have lost 2 cats in our yard within the past year. I think I am going to put my trail camera in our backyard to see what I find!!!

[Weed Shark]

Which brings up a good point, a black lab would be nothing for a cougar to drag off if the dog was killed for food. That said, I don't believe they would have found the dog if a cougar was responsible.

The dog was only out five minutes. It is unlikely any attack took place the first half of that. The dog was not quite dead yet. If it was a cougar, it let go when it heard people coming.

[walleye101]

What's amazing is in a state with only a handful of documented cougar sightings in the last 100 years we have accumulated so many cougar experts!

[Surface Tension]

There is no cover up by DNR that we have cougars. Its when folks out in the woods can't tell the difference between a house cat and a cougar is where there stories start.

What's amazing is in a state with only a handful of documented cougar sightings in the last 100 years we have accumulated so many cougar experts!

That feels like a dig on me along with the arm chair comments.

I could turn that around and say that we blame an untimely death of a dog that was let run unsupervised on a cougar.

So I take it you are an expert on cougars?

When was the last cougar kill where you saw broken ribs? Wait lets back up. When was the last time you say a cougar kill? Do you think cougars get into a brawl with dogs? Do you think cougars get into any brawls? In brawls I mean breaking ribs and an alright fight.

OHH thats right a cougar can break the neck of an ox in one swipe. NOT. A Cougar will stock and and pounce. Their paws support their bodies, act like and extension to spring like legs and their claws hook and hold prey. They are not clubs, they are not meant or used to bludgeon their prey.

They don't bunny kick prey with their back feet.

If you saw a stealthy cougar kill you'd notice a little cat spit on the neck of the prey where it held it prey till it suffocated.

Look here do you see a rib braking neck braking struggle?

[walleye101]

I'm no cougar expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night!

Youtube has made us all experts.

Lighten up. The dig was aimed at no one in paticular, just a general commment on this discussion, but if the shoe fits....................

[soldoncass]

weed shark,

I've watched that wolf/cougar video fight over and over again. It is amazing ...and so typical of a cat fight...they almost WANT to be on there BACK, it seems, so they can use their hind feet. Just as in that wolf fight, they use them as leverage to throw the other fighter around....if the wolf/lab's head is controlled by the cat, the body weight is what would break the neck, and if the body landed on the timbers where the blood was, that would damage/break ribs. The body WOULD NOT move after a broken neck...by car OR cougar...blood would be AT THE SCENE. Sorry folks, but there is NOTHING to point toward a car(unless it was in the backyard, that would leave tracks).....NOTHING, at all. SO since that is obvious, what did it???? Cougar fits perfect, but they don't leave a lot of clues around. After watching cats and dogs methods, natural inclinations, reactions, etc....here is MY belief: The lab went into the yard, smelled something new and went to investigate, trailed the scent and got too close to a cougar, who attacked to protect itself. The attack was sudden and quick(no barking), and after the cat used its hind legs to toss the lab over(puncture wound on leg), labs neck AND ribs were broken on the fall against the timber.....end of fight and story. Gotta remember this was a PET lab, not a hardened wild animal (he was overmatched), protecting HIS turf against a trespasser, and it cost him his life.

ST,

While a cat/cougar will kill a defenseless deer/prey animal by suffocation, it ALSO uses it's hindlegs in fighting ALL the time. Depends on the size difference I think. We used to have barn cats, and dogs growing up, and they displayed the tendencies/instincts I've described. The even-size predater fight such as a cougar/wolf or dog will be won by the cat everytime, because they use 4 feet AND their mouth , while a dog/wolf uses mouth only....AND a cat is QUICKER everytime. The cougar/wolf video is a perfect example of such a fight(probably could insert "Mikuna" in place of the wolf and see HOW it went down). I searched the internet for cougar kills etc....and the ONLY ONE that showed the neck hold was the one you put on as a link. Everything else I found descibed "blunt force trauma" or "broken neck" as causes of death. While I believe the wolf/cougar fight was "staged", it shows fighting styles EXACTLY. It may have been a roadkill that someone put a camera over....they probably didn't expect to see a predator fight over it.