Deer Hunting

[huntnfish]

That is one heck of a buck. Hopefully, there will still be some of them around for me to get a shot at when the muzzleloader season opens.
The story about the girls horse getting shot makes you wonder about even going into the woods to go hunting. In one of the first years that I deer hunted some guy shot a holstein cow on opening morning. Its things like that that give the anti's ammunition.

[Grabs]

TJHunter,..I have to disagree with letting the lil' ones age. I was reading some research articles on bucks age vs. antler size.

I read that button bucks should be spared, these are going to be your big antler producers, as they are only 6 months old and producing antlers already.

Now a spike is 1.5 years old, and will probably never amount to more than a 8pt at best, so you don't want this one breeding in the heard, but it doesn't do us any good on years like this when all of the breeding was already done before firearms season even started. (Note: we found many beds this weekend with blood in them, does that didn't get bred, which means the peak was about 7-12 days prior)

Now those button bucks can produce 6 or even 8pts at 1.5 years of age, and these ones are the ones you want to let age and produce a really nice racks.

I think our problem is too many of the small rack producers are running around breeding and we need to start weeding some of them out and let the larger antlered bucks breed.

Very complex, too complex to even know where to start! But something is really outta wack where we hunt, and yet no one has seen any does, which also leads me to believe that we have a lot more bucks born each year vs. does.

It's all theory until you hit the woods!

[Havin' Fun]

Grabs,
Sounds to me like you have a dietary problem more than genetics. Genetics is important, but nutrition is becoming even more important. A 1.5 year old spike still isn't all that unnatural. A deers best growth doesn't come until years 3-4-5. Thoughts to ponder!

[Iceman77]

I would agree with Grabs on that one. Much of the research that I have read and everything that I have watched on our farm in ND shows that the spike bucks generally grow up to be inferior bucks. In areas where I have seen doe to buck ratios way out of wack(more than 3 to 1) I have seen many more smaller bucks. I believe the reason being is that a buck will stay with his doe in heat for roughly 1 to 2 days from what I've seen and primarily mate with just that one doe that entire time. Other does that are part of his group will be waiting their turn while smaller inferior bucks will sneak in and mate with the large bucks does while the bigger buck is busy doing his business. I have seen this many times in the past so we started taking does only off of our farm with the occasional spiked buck. These days we have a couple of pope and young bucks on our 1500 acre farmstead that have a much better chance to breed more does with a smaller chance of a smaller buck sneaking in. This gives much better chance to have good genetics within the deer herd. I believe that doe to buck ratios are overlooked too often for deer management. Especially in Minnesota where everybody gets a buck tag. In ND the Game and Fish department gives a certain number of buck tags and a certain number of doe tags per unit and you have to apply for what you want. This way they can manage deer herd size and buck to doe ratios much better. This is my experience on the subject and therefore my opinion only.

[tjhunter]

Grabs and Iceman,

You're comparing apples and oranges. Grabs is hunting in northern MN and Iceman is comparing that to a deer on the plains of ND. There aren't a lot of crops up in northern MN and the deer's antler growth will not even come close to that of a plains deer or any deer with basically an unlimited food source. Secondly they are two different sub-species of whitetail. It would be very rare for a 1 1/2 year old deer to have a 6 or even 8 point rack in northern MN. It will take at least 2 1/2 years to see if a buck will generate good antler growth, but it still will not show until the 3rd or 4th year. Hammer em' was right on - you need to wait until 3, 4 and 5 years of age.

The other issue is deer density. Up in northern MN, the deer densities are low compared to other areas of the state and country. Trying to implement QDM in an area with poor deer densities on a small area of land will have little effect. It would take a large area with a big group of hunters to start effecting the deer population and managing the herd for trophy antler growth.

I'll be up in that neck of the woods hunting with the in-laws this weekend. I'm just hoping to see some deer.

tjhunter

[USPENAMC]

Well i hunted for 2 days in the 3a area not good at all. first of all most of the public land was in un marked streets and some were no bigger than my apartment building and the ones that were big were big a.. swamps. I went up to hastings and we located what we thought was public land well the owner came around just as we were getting ready to go into the woods and said that was his land but that he would let us cross through his land to get to the state land it was cool thing what he didnt tell us was that we would have to pass a big river about neck high and in this temperature lol. So now i decided i must make some farmer, rancher friends that dont really like the deer poking around in their farmlands and would allow me to hunt. well on saturday we didnt start hunting until noon when we found a spot but there were about 20 people hunting pheasant and quail or whatever on like a 5 acre piece of land. on sunday we found another place and i found something discusting to me. found 4 deer no skin, no head but all the meat left there 4 of them lots of fat and meat on them looked like they had been dumped there that morning right under the DNR state public hunting land sign. SO are any of you farmers and Ranchers i would pay some money i just dont want to pay 1500 dollars for those guides for deer hunting you know. well take care everyone and happy hunting to all hope better luck for everyone...

[tjhunter]

Grabs,

I bowhunt in Dellwood and other areas in Washington County. I gun hunt in South Dakota, River Falls WI, muzzleload hunt near Forest Lake and I'll actually be rifle hunting near Hibbing this weekend - right by the Taconite mine.

As far as getting deer numbers - the phone number to the Grand Rapids DNR wildlife office is 218 327 4432. They can get you the email address of the biologist up in that area. Pick his brain.

I've also seen documentation put out by Pope and Young. It listed all of the counties in the U.S. and listed the number of Pope and Young bucks registered in each county. It's not extremely scientific, but it gives you a good picture.

The latest density numbers I saw in Washington County were about 15 deer per square mile, but a higher percentage of does. I've been out 15 times or so bowhunting this year in Dellwood and I've seen deer all but two times out. I have not seen an antler yet...oh well, it keeps me interested at least.

tjhunter

[Grabs]

TJ - I bet you aren't but 5 miles away from me this weekend! I hunt very close to Waymier Lake,..uhm what else would help you put a finger on our location,...I guess the area is best located by the local lakes I guess.

Well guys and gals, just out the rack on this gal,....
http://www.startribune.com/stories/531/3441781.html

Brings up some questions,...

[Iceman77]

Tj I see and understand your point on the different nutritiunal values of the food in both areas. There have been a few studies completed and at least one published about 7 or 8 years ago in either Peterson's Bowhunting or Bowhunter magazine(can't remember which one) that discussed this same topic in varying areas. One such area was a game farm and the other area in contrast was a highly wooded area with little high protein and fatty acid content food available. The studies still showed that bucks that had spikes in both areas still produced inferior racks. Even in the heavy woods a buck that would be larger rack wise would at least sport a fork or 3X3 rack on his second year of life(although they mentioned the racks did not have much mass). They determined that bucks with spikes without high nourishment food available would still produce small racks just like that of the game farm. The only real difference was the bucks on the game farm were larger by both body size and rack mass. I've seen a couple of studies now that showed the same results and one of which was published. Not to say that they are either completely right or wrong but there are studies that show the same results and to date I haven't seen a study that shows otherwise.

[Borch]

Grabs & TJ,

How's the hunting around Hibbing/Evelth? I'm looking at a piece of hunting land near Iron Junction. Plan on making the trip to wander around and look sometime in the next couple of weeks.

[Grabs]

TJ, where abouts do you hunt?

Thanks for the advice,..now where can a guy do some reading and comparisons on the locale of the deer herd, vs. nutrition and densities?

[Guest]

uspenamc,

Did you try to hunt the gores pool wma? Thats the only one I know of in hastings that has rivers. Lots of deer, but you need a boat, have to be willing to walk, or just need to know where to access it.

[tjhunter]

Grabs,

I'm about 5 miles south of Side Lake on the west side of the highway. I'm one mile north of Linears(sp) bar. I'm heading up Friday evening to hunt Saturday and Sunday. How many deer have you been seeing on average? My father in law said they've only been seeing a few.

Borch,

The times I've been up in that area, I haven't seen a lot of deer. I suppose in the last 2 years I've been up there 20 times(not hunting - just driving up to the cabin and things) and I've only seen a handful of deer. I'm not sure if it has to do with a low population or how thick it is up there. Plus, the herd has to contend with the wolves.

Iceman,

While I tend to agree with most studies, I still think northern MN may be a little different. I think that if all people shoot are spikes, they will rarely see deer any larger - even basket 6's, 8's and 10's. I think if someone is trying to take a trophy out of that area, they may hunt a long time. Although people do take Boone and Crocket animals up north every year, I think it has to do with the large amount of people hunting up there. Just my opinion.

Good luck and shoot straight

tjhunter

[USPENAMC]

SUPERFISH,

I believe that was the area we went to but being the first year we didnt know anything at all like i said the owner gave us a chance to cross but we didnt have a boat or long johns to cross you know. and well my license was for 3A and that ended on sunday i guess I have to make many friends now you know i kind of feel stupid not knowing much and asking someone for info and stuff. I have met many a person who are not the friendliest persons on this earth. I have a Mossberg 695 bolt action slugger 12 gauge that was ready to blow a deer out of its path but saw no action i guess i might try iowa or wisconsin if i can only find a place that i know i might see some deer. I know some people tresspass and poach and go away with a deer and people that follow rules and stick to the guidelines sometimes go away empty handed but thats the way it is. keep a shooting and good luck to all.

[Grabs]

Thanks man...I have seen this before.

I am looking more for information about how nutrition effects antler sizes and if the nutrition is optimized, what then is the result on the antler sizes of each deer age class. And then what other factors play a role besides genes?

I have noticed that from the DNR info there are the best bucks around the transition zone of the state, heavy woods to farm country. And then there are also many more does harvested in farm country than there are bucks and then the opposite is true in the northern portions of the state.

Good luck up there this weekend, I have seen deer every day I have been out this year, but have only been able to shoot at the one that I shot opening weekend.

Now that there is snow on the ground, I can see that there are a ton of deer around, easily as many as last season and I am pretty sure there are plenty more.

I really see a lot of deer between Hibbing and Floodwood along Hwy 73! Prior to opening deer season I counted over 50 deer on the drive that night, but since deer season opened I haven't seen a single deer! They really changed their patterns once the rut peaked and the hunters took to the woods.

[WaveWacker]

Just to jump in on the nutritian/QDM topic. I have spent time hunting N of Bemidji, SW of Bemidji, around Park Rapids, and in the back yard on the property around Hutchinson. From course work related to subject, reading of multiple article/books, viewing of videos and numerous converstations with various wildlife professionals this is my thoughts...

I do believe the argument being made that a 1 1/2 year old spike is (for the most part) destined for inferiority. This is even in northern climates. Keep in mind that I do believe that they could turn out to be (in my mind) a respectable buck. Basket 8, small 10. Having supplement food plots will ensure increased/proper nutritian in all areas.

I have aged forks, nice 6's, and even small 8's at 1 1/2 years of age in all areas that I have hunted (3 cusps on third cheek tooth). The shape a deer is in coming out of winter can play a factor in this growth.

Now it boils down to what ones perception of a "trophy" deer is. A first timer is probably going to think that a fawn is the greatest trophy ever, and probably will never forget the adrenaline rush of that first kill. I know I won't. Some think that getting a 6, 8, smaller 10 is a trophy. In there scenario letting spikes go could help them get to there desired goals. Then again there are those that would like to harvest only 130, 140+ animals. I would then think about only letting the "creme of the crop" animals live to breed and cull out the others. Keep in mind that this is all fine and dandy if we all own 1,000's of acres so that we have control of this. Either that or it takes a heck of a lot of neighbors to go along with your same ideas.

I personally would like to harvest large deer and that is what my goals are. Even though I know a fair amount of the younger bucks that I let go will get taken by other hunters I have found a thrill in watching these animals and knowing that they had no clue that I was in their territory in the hopes that one or two someday will be around to come past my stand. What is quality, or a trophy? It is different to everyone.

[Guest]

uspenamc,

I do a lot of duck hunting in the gores pool/ north lake area. There are access points that hold deer and you don't need waders/ boat. If you need some help for next year in that spot let me know and hopefully I can point you in the right direction.

[huskminn]

TJ,

Just curious as to where you have hunted deer in South Dakota......I hunt there, as well. At least when I'm able to get my tags.

[tjhunter]

I lived in Sioux Falls for 5 years. I bowhunted primarily up in Baltic. I rifle hunted Gregory county one year. I hunted with my muzzleloader south of Canton a couple of times. And I mule deer hunted out in Butte County. I'll be out in Butte Co. again next year with my bow. I hit the Black Hills a couple of times for deer and elk and was all over the state antelope hunting too.

Grabs,

For QDM and food plots - you may want to check out bowhunting.com. They have a QDM message board. Also, check out
http://www.qdma.com/Home/index.asp

Their is a link on the left hand side of the page called 'whitetail map guide' that has population densities of whitetails.

tjhunter

[This message has been edited by tjhunter (edited 11-20-2002).]

[tjhunter]

Grabs,

Here's a link with some harvest info...

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/deer/index.html

[Guest]

hey goin hhuntin tommorow any homade scents to reccomend? please write to me quickly!
thanks a heap

[Grabs]

What the hell is MN DNR doing so much differently than the WI DNR? Why the drastic difference in population densities. Nearly 100% of WI has more than 15 deer per square mile, while MN is nearly 100% less than 15 deer per square mile!

We really need to change some thinking here I think.

[metrojoe]

Well, their also having a problem with CWD.

Don't quote me on this, but from what I've heard they are offering 2 extra tags a day until they are gone. It doesn't sound like there is any legal limit at all, except for bucks, I'm sure.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce the deer population, why don't they reduce the price of a non-resident license for one year. Instead of trying to get one guy to harvest 10 deer, why not get 5 guys to harvest 2.

[USPENAMC]

Since i had no success in mn i am going to try and hunt the WILLOW RIVER STATE PARK just across Wisconsin on 94 near hudson i believe has anyone ever hunted here Ill pay my 150 or whatever it is for my license and give it a try any information hints, on this area would be great anybody heading to that area.

[BLACKJACK]

TJ, nice deer on that kansas HSOforum!!!!!! I'd take any one of those big ones!!!