Joe Mauer a lot of little problems

[Canon Guy]

AJ was a career .301 hitter making less than $400,000 when he left the Twins but because he wasn't "from here" no one cared when he left.

Many in baseball would agree that Joe is an impact player that they would love to build a team around. There is not one person in baseball that would have ever thought that about AJ,except for AJ himself

[Big Dave2]

no one cared because most people knew he was never the caliber of player that even remotely had the potential to win a batting title let alone an MVP.

But where have these "individual" awards gotten the team? Maybe you could take this large paycheck and spread it out amoung a couple of very good playes instead of giving it all to a catcher that won't play as many games as another player because of the nature of his position.

[greebs]

If you use games played as your logic for salary must mean you also believe that pavano is grossly overpaid too. After all he sits out 4 of every 5 games.

[Coach1310]

But where have these "individual" awards gotten the team? Maybe you could take this large paycheck and spread it out amoung a couple of very good playes instead of giving it all to a catcher that won't play as many games as another player because of the nature of his position.

You are fooling yourself if you think that next year they would spend 23 million on other players if they weren't paying Joe..... His VALUE as a business ASSET far exceeds what value a few guys making 5 million a season would....

You need to start changing your argument to "The Twins put too many eggs in one basket by paying Joe" and not "Joe is not worth his 23 million he will be getting paid in years to come..."

[JacobMHD]

But then he would have to change his copy and paste procedure.....

[Big Dave2]

If you use games played as your logic for salary must mean you also believe that pavano is grossly overpaid too. After all he sits out 4 of every 5 games.

No, because he is a pitcher. I compare pitchers to other pitchers and offensive stars to other offensive stars.

[Big Dave2]

His VALUE as a business ASSET far exceeds what value a few guys making 5 million a season would....

When you watch a sports team play games, is it your goal that the team make lots of money or win games and championships? Which is more personaly rewarding and exciting to you?

[Canon Guy]

When you watch a sports team play games, is it your goal that the team make lots of money or win games and championships? Which is more personaly rewarding and exciting to you?

I want the team to make money so they can put a competetive team on the field. If they win a championship that's great,but for me it's about enjoying the 162 games,not being upset if they don't win the whole thing.

Personaly rewarding? I get personal rewards when I do something,not from a sports team.

[Coach1310]

When you watch a sports team play games, is it your goal that the team make lots of money or win games and championships? Which is more personaly rewarding and exciting to you?

My goal really doesn't matter. I'm a life long Minnesotan and Twins fan for life regardless. You have to deal with what the team gives you. The team in baseball that makes the most money is the Yankees... by making that money it allows them to have the highest payroll and the best chance year in and year out to compete for a championship. The better the Twins do as a business, hopefully the better teams they are able to field. I think they go hand in hand.... but like I said, what I like really doesn't matter.

Your issue isn't with Mauer, it is with the Twins.... If the your boss approached you with an offer to make DOUBLE what you are currently making, would you sign on the dotted line??? Absolutely.... that is all Mauer did. His employer saw him as that valuable an asset to compensate him as such. Would folks you work with think the company is making a mistake? Sure, but it isn't your fault, it is theirs. If you have an issue, it should be with the Twins, not with Joe.

[jwmiller33]

Big Dave just has a bone to pick with Mauer and the Twins, and it's apparent that regardless of what is said on here, nothing will change his views. I think we all know he is a Sux fan at heart... No true Twins fan would express this much hate and detest for the organization and one of our best players.

[jwmiller33]

Once again, talking about Joe's value. I know Big Dave is going to dismiss this because it is not a simple stat like batting average or HR totals, but using advanced baseball statistics (SABRmetrics) is a great way to display the true derived VALUE of a baseball player's [Mauer's] abilities.

Fan Graphs is:

Quote:

FanGraphs.com is a HSOforum that provides statistics for every player in Major League Baseball history.

All major league baseball data on the HSOforum, including pitch type, velocity, batted ball location, and play-by-play data, are provided by Baseball Info Solutions. All Win Expectancy, Leverage Index, and Run Expectancy data are licensed from InsideTheBook.com. All UZR (ultimate zone rating) calculations are provided by Mitchel Lichtman.

They have a feature that ultimately uses advanced baseball statistics for each player, and gives a value in DOLLARS that a given player was worth for each season. Here is Mauer's breakdown over the course of his career:

this chart shows us Mauer's performance in 2009 was at a value of $36 million dollars! For 3 of the past 4 years, his value has roughly been at or exceeded what he is going to be making in his new contract......

The numbers speak for themselves Dave... Now how are you going to dismiss these facts? Because some of their computations are a little too advanced for you?

You know, there are many more statistics out there that do a much better job at showing a player's true ability than batting average and HR totals. I'm talking about the one that the average baseball fan can't find online in 30 seconds

[Big Dave2]

Well, I'm done with this subject becouse you guys with your mancrushes just don't get it.

I have already stated that I have no problem with Joe Mauer signing the contract, and the Twins were forced to make the offer because of so many fans having the same mancrush as you guys on a guy that is from your home state.

I'm just trying to make you guys realize that in the next 8 years don't count on ever watching your favorite team win anything meaningful.

[Bobby Bass]

Well, I'm done with this subject becouse you guys with your mancrushes just don't get it.

I have already stated that I have no problem with Joe Mauer signing the contract, and the Twins were forced to make the offer because of so many fans having the same mancrush as you guys on a guy that is from your home state.

I'm just trying to make you guys realize that in the next 8 years don't count on ever watching your favorite team win anything meaningful.

I'll have to cut this and put it away so I can paste it I am thinking several times in the next 8 years.

[greebs]

Well, I'm done with this subject becouse you guys with your mancrushes just don't get it.

I have already stated that I have no problem with Joe Mauer signing the contract, and the Twins were forced to make the offer because of so many fans having the same mancrush as you guys on a guy that is from your home state.

I'm just trying to make you guys realize that in the next 8 years don't count on ever watching your favorite team win anything meaningful.

depends on what you would call meaningful. unless the AL central suddenly becomes a much tougher division, this team should contend for the division title at least a few of the next eight years. and if they don't make it to the world series, that would be no different than the last almost 20 years.

[Big Dave2]

[TR21HP]

Dave,

These guys can set the bar as high as they want but as long as a few teams have the kind of money to get the top players the Twins and their fans should be satisfied with winning a division and maybe a few games in the playoffs.There a number of teams that wished they had the kind of years the Twins have had the last couple of years. Nothing wrong about setting the bar high but temper it with a bit of reality. Money still wins championships.

[Big Dave2]

I'll have to cut this and put it away so I can paste it I am thinking several times in the next 8 years.

I certainly hope that you are able to do just that! I will take it like a man if you do. I just don't see how................

[greebs]

Don't get me wrong. I really want the team to do more than just make playoffs and get beat first round of playoffs like what has been happening recently. But contending for and winning division titles still can be classified as meaningful in my book. and as I stated previously no world series titles in the next 8 years would be no different than the past nearly 20 years so hard to say that's mauers fault.

[Big Dave2]

Dave,

These guys can set the bar as high as they want but as long as a few teams have the kind of money to get the top players the Twins and their fans should be satisfied with winning a division and maybe a few games in the playoffs.There a number of teams that wished they had the kind of years the Twins have had the last couple of years. Nothing wrong about setting the bar high but temper it with a bit of reality. Money still wins championships.

I don't necessarily agree with this logic. I witnessed it in '87 and '91. The Twins didn't need a 23 million dollar catcher even. The best players were position players who played most every day so you get the most bang for the buck. Those teams were more traditional teams with a great 1st baseman, 3rd baseman, outfielders and the weakest offensive links were catcher and shortstop just like it should be.

[Jim Uran]

Yep I agree, divsion titles are meaninful also. Especially when you have two teams in the division with bigger markets and bigger payrolls.

[Big Dave2]

Don't get me wrong. I really want the team to do more than just make playoffs and get beat first round of playoffs like what has been happening recently. But contending for and winning division titles still can be classified as meaningful in my book. and as I stated previously no world series titles in the next 8 years would be no different than the past nearly 20 years so hard to say that's mauers fault.

What individual player was being payed 23 mil a year in the last 20 years? That in itself should mean that the Twins are serious about contending for a championship unless it was a move just to appease the "homer" fans who want hometown boys to play here at any cost.

[Big Tom]

But where have these "individual" awards gotten the team? Maybe you could take this large paycheck and spread it out amoung a couple of very good playes instead of giving it all to a catcher that won't play as many games as another player because of the nature of his position.

As noted by others, you are framing your argument incorrectly.

Mauer's value to the team has nothing to do with awards. His value is predicated on three things, his production at his position, (best in the game), production in on-base, runs scored, RBI and defense, (again for #3 hitters anong the best in the game), and finally your point about the opportunity cost of paying him vs. using the money elsewhere. The reality of the third point is I believe the Twins take a much larger revenue hit from his absense than the cost of keeping him here and in the butts in the seats he brings in. Without the revenue from the fan base, there are no championships.

Over the past 15 years, you don't see many small market, small payroll teams winning it all anymore. The Marlin's are the exception that proves the rule in that they didn't win their division either time and had a fire sale after 1997's Championship because of financial losses. It just doesn't work that way anymore.

[CodyDawg]

Using a fantasy football analogy....bear with me on this as it applies....

You dont win a championship with aveage players. You might have to overpay for a stud, but you gotta have them.

Yep, you could get 4 $5mil per year guys. But those are just average to good players. They will NOT win you a championship. A roster full of Cuddyers doesnt get it done. Nice player, good for the team, but you cant ride him to the glory. Last nite was a good example. Ozzie wanted nothing to do with Joe and eventually it cost them. Kubel finally made them pay and that game was over the second the ball cleared the fence.

[Canon Guy]

Well, I'm done with this subject becouse you guys with your mancrushes just don't get it.

Oh really ?

[harvey lee]

Mauer's bat has been awesome and the Twins will need it down the homestretch. If Buters needs to catch from time to time, so be it.