What do you think?

[surewood]

With the rise in QDM which I think is a good idea but I know it's not for everyone and that makes sense. Some people only have a couple of days to hunt and some really can't wait to eat those deer. My suggestion to try to meet in the middle somewhere would be to only allow party hunting for does. That way you would get your one and only buck tag. I know some will disagree but do you really need to shoot two or three bucks a season. I personally know of people that would pass on smaller bucks if they knew it was there last for the year. I also know some people would just lie and say someone else shot it and shoot another buck, but I think those people are the minority. I think the majority of hunters are honest people. This way you have more people taking does vs small bucks and you can maintain a healthy heard.

[lawdog]

I assume by party hunting you are really meaning cross tagging and if that's the restriction, you can only shoot and kill your own buck, even if you are hunting with several people, I'm all for it. Still allow cross tagging for antlerless because we can regulate those numbers by the number of tags allowed. I do think this would improve the age structure of our deer. Of course here in zone 4 I've been saying for years that nothing will matter unless the two day season is gone. Understand that's an option being considered now too and I think combining the two would do wonders...

[Jameson]

 Originally Posted By: surewood

...try to meet in the middle somewhere would be to only allow party hunting for does...

Under current MN law party hunting for does is legal. I've never heard of a QDM plan that ever mentioned being against party hunting for does.

How is this meeting in the middle?????????

[jerkbait]

Here is what i think of QDM!

BIG RACKS! I think they are whey to chewey for my taste. People hunt ducks to shoot ducks, they hunt pheasants to shoot pheasants, thay hunt grouse to shoot grouse and so on. I hunt deer to shoot deer. My family loves vension. I think shooting a trophy buck is supposed to be a once in a lifetime experience, otherwise shooting a 10 pointer every year would be no different then shooting a fork or a spike every year. Then we will have to stop shooting the 10 and 12 pointers so we can let them grow to 20 pointers. When will it stop, we have a great deer population and you see tons of trophy buck pictures in the outdoor news every week. We have a great season now IMO. Besides let em go, let em grow so the sharp shooters can shoot em or mother nature gets em. My 2 cents.

[Powerstroke]

 Originally Posted By: Jameson

 Originally Posted By: surewood

...try to meet in the middle somewhere would be to only allow party hunting for does...

Under current MN law party hunting for does is legal. I've never heard of a QDM plan that ever mentioned being against party hunting for does.

How is this meeting in the middle?????????

His statement is to limit party hunting to does only.

Currently party hunting is legal for all deer licenses except the multi-zone buck. Meaning one person in the party could shoot all the deer for everyone, buck or doe. His suggestion is to disallow party hunting for bucks and allow it for does only.

[Powerstroke]

If you like venison, shoot a doe. There's way more of them and they are easier to come by. It helps control the population and doens't affect the quality of the bucks as much.

Very few bucks would ever get bigger than 10pts even if allowed to live to a natural death. Thats why genetics are so important. A 10 ptr with mass is worth more than a 12ptr with smaller bases and less mass. Having more points sounds great at the bar but it isn't a gauge of the quality of the animal. I've seen 10pt 2 yr olds that don't score as well as a 5yr old 7 pointer.

Trophy deer are trophies. A 160" deer is amazing. A 130" deer is pretty darn nice, but if you want meat then why shoot a spike or forkhorn? You can't create trophy deer is you shoot them when they are little.

I realize the law allows you to shoot a buck of any size. If you choose that, thats your choice. Thats my .02

[jlm]

Amen Powerstroke, good post. If you like venison and antlers are too chewy for your taste, then why even bother to shoot bucks. Lots of does out there to harvest! Sharp shooters are killing deer because of they have come into contct with disease. It could be linked to over-population. Or it could be just circumstance. Whatever the case, if it is over-population, it sure is not from an over-population of bucks!!!!!!

[ANYFISH]

I do think hunters are fairly honest but I do think that this idea would be very difficult to enforce. If party hunting for does is allowed someone will still cross tag a buck. It might help some but I don't think it is the answer. good question though.

"Very few bucks would ever get bigger than 10pts even if allowed to live to a natural death. Thats why genetics are so important. A 10 ptr with mass is worth more than a 12ptr with smaller bases and less mass. Having more points sounds great at the bar but it isn't a gauge of the quality of the animal. I've seen 10pt 2 yr olds that don't score as well as a 5yr old 7 pointer."

Powerstroke, although I agree with your thinking, I do believe this statment is why non-trophy hunters and some non-hunters dislike The "Trophy guys", No deer is "worth more" than any other unless your on a farm and the size of the rack will never be the judge of the "quality of the animal" all of our deer are quality in most eyes. Maybe just too early in the morning so don't take offense, I agree what you are trying to say but the majority of hunters in minnesota just want to be able to say they shot a deer this season, and even better if they can say that they shot a buck of any size. We still have a long road ahead before that changes.

[bigbucks]

I think the bucks not party hunting thing & the does party hunting would be an enforcement nightmare that the DNR wouldn't mess with. I'm all for bigger bucks too, but the fact of the matter is, shooting a lot of the small bucks doesn't hurt the population at all, so from that standpoint it's a mute point in regards to management.

It seems obvious from the different posters & conversations in the past that a lot of people think only in terms of their core deer area & assume every other one in the state is the same or very similar, they're not. Some parts of the state are still very overpopulated, others have very low numbers, while others are right where they should be, & it even varies a lot within a permit area. Generally I think the DNR's doing a pretty good job with deer management. Like someone said, there are still plenty of trophy bucks here, they're just harder to find. I believe we have a lot more hunters than IA, overall far less agriculture, & generally people are hunting closer together on small properties, that may just be my misconception/perception.

On a side note whoever posted that you can't party hunt with the Multi-Zone buck license I think is behind on their regs. I know that used to be true, but believe it changed about three years ago. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[jerkbait]

That is why I hunt. To shoot a deer, any deer is a trophy to me, spike, fork, or antlerless. Where I hunt the majority of the deer I see in my stand are bucks and most of the time there are little scraggly horns. Now this year we will be lucky to even see a deer since the sharpshooters are trying to eradicate the whole herd in the TB zone and we are smack dabb in the middle of it. Also the TB in the deer had nothing to do with over population, they contracted it from the cattle in that area and it is a Mexican strain of TB from prize cattle that were imported from Mexico. I still think the majority of people like it the way it is, it is the minority that is pushing for QDM. I know the majority, not all of the hunters in NW MN hunt to shoot a deer no matter what size the rack is. Also a young buck taste just as good as a doe.

[surewood]

I know some people would not like this suggestion. I also know QDM is on the rise. Jameson what I mean by meeting in the middle is if you like meat a person can still go out and party hunt does, shoot two or three if you're that hungry. But no one is allowed more than one buck. This way everybody still gets to shoot there "trophy" but why do you have to shoot three "trophy's". I'm just saying it's somewhere closer to the middle because the more extreme is earn a buck, and antler restrictions. With interest in trophy deer I think sometime in the future there will be some sort of change. There is interest to. When was the last time you saw the local bar empty out for a forkhorn, but put a 10pt out there, and just the few that are afraid to lose their spot are left. Now I'm not saying that it's not an acomplishment to be proud of any deer, it is. For deer management and QDM it might just have some impact.

[tedl]

I feel deer hunting should be for the meat and not the rack!! I am thankful to shoot deer in the fall to feed the family. I know some big buck hunters that shoot big bucks every year and they say their wife and kids won't eat it so why wait to shoot a big deer when you can shoot a small one and the meat won't go to waste.

[bigbucks]

I know of one party that will not shoot bucks period. They don't care how big it is, they think the meat's no good. Having eaten plenty of bucks, I can't say I agree with them, but that's what they do. I would tend to agree that a big mature buck, especially at rut time isn't going to taste as good as a nice yearling doe or fawn, but a yearling buck would still tasted mighty fine as well.

[Powerstroke]

I want to clear up that I am not a trophy hunter. In fact, to be completely honest, I've never even shot a legal buck and I've been deer hunting over 10 years.

I could care less about counting inches. What is usually mentioned and the position I agree with, is "wouldn't it be nice to see more and bigger bucks?"

Heck, I would like to see a couple. The areas I hunt get hammered by gun hunters who just want to tag out on a buck. I've been razzed many times cause I tagged 2 does and someone else shot a spike, but guess what....I shot a doe. In their eyes I'm less of a hunter.

I let the little ones walk knowing full well they might get shot just down the road. If I don't practice what I preach than I have nothing to stand on.

I don't make the rules, its just my opinion. I don't judge anyone to taking an animal within the law. The post is titled "what do you think?" so thats my opinion on the subject.

[96trigger]

I let the little bucks walk unless its very late in the firearm season and I haven't gotten any venison with the bow. At that point I really don't care, people can get mad at me if they want, but during the seasons I continually pass on small bucks.

I would also like to throw this out. I worked in Buffalo county for years. My Brother lives in Trempeleau county. It is getting darn hard to find any place to hunt. Do you want to know why? They have done such a great job with QDM, that almost all of the land is leased up, if you want a buck, its going to cost you bucks. The same guys wanting strict QDM will soon be crying about how an outfitter leased up the land. Don't think it could happen? one outfitter was already asking numerous farmers in the county I live in.

In my area, the deer population is too big, we get to see big bucks every year, but we don't always get to shoot one. I really don't want this to become a state that is known for big bucks. This is just a snapshot of one area of Minnesota, I think it may be different for some areas, my areas seems pretty well established, we have a nice amount of bucks. The lottery doe tag for 3A has really helped. We don't see the number of deer during 3B, but the quality has really improved. I think more people are taking does right away if they have the tag, giving more bucks a chance to live.

[candiru]

I agree 96. We need to look at the effect of MN becoming known for big bucks. If I remember right one of the columnists in Outdoor news said in Pike County IL. a lease on 700 acres went for $47,000 and the landowner could still hunt. I am sure few if none of his family or friends could. Money talks.

[bigbucks]

In my eyes anyway that would ruin hunting a whole lot more than guys shooting small bucks. If that was the choice I was given I'd shoot small bucks the rest of my life over that. Some of my "friends" might argue that's the only buck I'll ever shoot anyway...

[Powerstroke]

In order for someone to make that money they have to sell or give out lease rights. If your family member blocked you from hunting on his land, is that the guy who leased the lands fault or the family member who caved in to the pressures of $$$?

There are some downsides to the debate for sure. It will never please everyone.

As long as this stays open-minded its a great discussion of ideas. Many times we've heard about how certain DNR higher-ups read these forums. This is easier and cheaper than trying to organize input meetings.

[96trigger]

Powerstroke, your right, someone would have to cave in, but why wouldn't they. Why wouldn't a farmer lease his recreation land to someone, especially if they want to give him a large amount of money. It might be enough to fuel his tractor or combine for a month, which is more than I would ever be willing, or able to pay. I would never blame the landowner for doing what was right for their family,even if they were related to me. It would sure suck though.

I like to shoot big bucks as much as the rest of the guys, but in my little world down here, I see land getting leased, and these guys don't just want 40 acres, they want 400 acres. That would also include your neighbors land. Now take all 20 people that hunted that private land and put them on the remaining public. It doesn't sound like fun to me. I'll take a nice buck when it comes along, I'll let the little ones walk, but I absolutely do not want Minnesota to become one of the trophy hotspots. I like to think of it as our little secret. Big bucks get taken every year in Minnesota, just read the outdoor news. There are more big bucks now than ever before. Things are working, but too many people want to shoot there trophy now, it took me 10 years of bowhunting to finally get one. I still have never had a shot at one with a firearm. But you know, I am OK with that.

[Boar]

This is a really good read, Money talks thats for sure. If I had land to lease or sell Im not sure what I'd do it certainly depends on my financial situation, I'd like to think I'd keep it for my kids's future. I'd like to shoot a big buck now an then but its not what keeps me in the feild year after year, I fish for walleye mostly durring peak periods durring spring an fall an have caught alot of nice walleyes but no wall hangers yet. but the big pigs is not what keeps me on the water. When I put enough time in on the water I'll connect with that 32" I have my sights on, If I put in the time an effort into trophy hunting a big buck I'm sure sooner or later I'll connect there too. I feel pretty privilaged to be able to do the hunting an fishing that I do an am content with most of the laws set forth. I just whish adjacent land owners around us would let some of the smaller bucks walk. boar

[ANYFISH]

I think every hunters dream is to shoot large bucks. But at what cost? My problem with leases are not with the landowner most of the time. My problem is with the hunters whom ask about leasing land instead of just asking permission and offering assistance to the landowner. These are the people that are taking away access. In my eye's it is thre greed to have it all to yourself. If you want land buy it. I know that is difficult with land prices now-a-days as I know I can't afford it, but then offer yourself as help and gain permission. It helps your fellow hunters keep their access. I do know some landowners that have looked into leasing because so and so get X amount for hunting rights on his land, the problem is just getting bigger and more wide spread. That's a high cost for a nice rack on the wall!

[subzero]

Great discussion on this subject, looking at a program from all sides can only help the hunting public. I like the thought of being able to see and shoot big bucks every year but as stated earlier that would reduce them to the same social standing as a spike is now. Everything has a price and if seeing a big buck comes with a price tag reduced hunting opportunities because of land being leased, special regulations, or the problem associated with over population I would have to think on that. Just remember it was a couple of bad winters that got us into thinking of bucks only, before that any deer was a trophy and good conversation at the sport shop. There are more points to this and hopefully the discussion will continue and line not drawn because as we all know once the govt. steps in not much good happens.

[surewood]

I don't beleive it would reduce their social standing to a spike. The reason is a spike is a year and a half old and a bigger deer will be around three and a half thats the way I look at it. The average buck shot is a year and a half old, seems pretty young to me. If a deer reaches a older age it will still be harder to hunt then a spike. Would'nt it be nice for everyone to have more oppurtunity to atleast see older deer. On the leased land, those spots are leased because they are hot spots that practice some sort of QDM. If more areas put out larger deer in a widespread area maybe people would say why do I pay an outfitter thousands of dollars to have a chance at a large deer when I can hunt my back forty or drive a couple of hours for the same oppurtunity. Then just maybe it would help reverse the trend of people gobbling up hundreds of acres and doing QDM on their own to sell what every hunter can have for the price of a tag. Yes we still have big deer killed every year, but I'll bet if it they had a survey in the states of a older bucks per hunter, Minnesota would be one of the lowest. Exspecially if we were just compared to the midwest. With all this being said though I think in the next 3 to 5 years with the doe population the way it is you'll see the earn a buck parcticed in MN. It's just that I hear about that more than any other practice and it will help to maintain a healthy heard. I think it's accepted by the big wigs more than the other options. Just my opinion though.

[tedl]

I agree the doe herd is way to high!! Lets face it alot of hunters don't hunt for the meat they hunt for the rack, and they are not shooting does. By having a earn a buck would force people to shoot does and help maintain a healthy herd. I feel it would only take a year or two to get back to where we should be. So get out there and shoot some deer and you will also be helping the moose

[surewood]

I hear ya, it might only take a couple of years. It would definately be worth it for the moose heard alone.