Is the DNR taking the right approach to Deer Management in MN?

[Eric Wettschreck]

The problem I see with an "Earn a buck" program, or "Point restrictions" type program is deer will still get shot, but not registered. If that actually happens then those programs did nothing but supply false data. More so with point restrictions.

[B@ssDoctor]

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It's Oct. 11th today and I was hunting in a T-shirt.

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You were also hunting in the wrong month. It's November now!

[Jameson]

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It's Oct. 11th today and I was hunting in a T-shirt.

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You were also hunting in the wrong month. It's November now!

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Sorry, long day. Long week.

[BLACKJACK]

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I still would rather have a deer a year than a big boy every 4.

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I agree with that 100%!!!! One of the dirty little secrets about QDM is that they want you to shoot the doe population down, way down, to get the sex ratios closer but the cost would be less doe permits, where you might not be able to shoot a deer some years.

[chucker34]

I may be beating a dead horse but ditto as well. I know the big boy will come some year but I'm very happy to get a deer every year (if I'm so fortunate). The majority want a deer in the freezer or a deer of some sort and enjoy hunting with friends and family. One of my wife's relatives slammed home with a huge 12 point buck this year but most years he shoots a doe or a little buck. He is beaming from ear to ear about that buck. But he's happy just to be able to get a deer every year and spend time in the field with his family.

There are a lot of people in 417 I know that so far have not got a deer this year and the firearms season runs out end of day Tuesday. Some haven't even seen one much less not had a shot. The numbers are down in many, many areas of the state. I'm more concerned about getting them back up again before I care about antler point restrictions. Putting the cart before the horse if you ask me.

[Hammer Handle]

Well, Realtower...we will just agree to disagree then.

On the deers terms? Do you use scent? A scope? How is that on his terms? If you want to go on his terms, sneek up to him and jump him with a knife.

Drives can be dangerous if not done properly. On a drive, a poster should NEVER shoot into the woods where the drivers are. There are many ways to do drives safely...although I know many hunters that don't know how to do a drive safely and hunters who get so excited when they see that deer...that they don't know what they are doing.

I think my duck comparision was not totally accurate, but was making a point. Another example is pheasant hunting...do you sit in a stand and shoot them when they walk out...or walk the field on a drive with other hunters?

Everyone has their own opinion...and that is fine. Just don't put down other peoples feelings if different from your own. Like it or not, there are many ways to hunt deer...not just your way.

[96trigger]

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One of my wife's relatives slammed home with a huge 12 point buck this year but most years he shoots a doe or a little buck. He is beaming from ear to ear about that buck. But he's happy just to be able to get a deer every year and spend time in the field with his family.

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This is exactly what I'm talking about. Trophys are rare, but we do have them here. If everyone in the party went out and shot a 12 pointer, would it still be a trophy? Will we eventally get looked down upon for shooting big 8's? I think we are doing just fine. I love it when a big buck gets shot and everyone stops for 2 days to get a look at it. It would get old real fast if everyone got one. Don't think so? Then why don't we call all our friends and family and have them drive out to see the really nice doe you just shot?

[bigbucks]

I've read this entire post & can certainly see everybody's points. In regards to the little debate between hammer handle & realtower, I've found realtower's approach to be much more antagonistic. Nothing wrong with the points, just haven't liked the tone.

I grew up doing deer drives & still do them. We do them very safely & with great care in who is where. If we've ever found an even marginally unsafe hunter they've been talked to. If we don't feel they've changed they won't be involved in the driving or if they are it will be posting in some off shoot place where nobody will get close enough for them to be shot accidentally. People learn pretty quick in those scenarios.

I personally would prefer to stand hunt. It's what I do given the choice unless I know the deer are not moving on their own. I've said this before & will say again I think the DNR is doing a great job. I didn't think they really needed to go from intensive to managed in our area, but I think the early harvest stats & party reports I've heard would indicate it was the right move.

I've had no trouble finding deer this year, but I didn't necessarily find the ones I wanted. Most of my hunting bow & gun the last three years has produced a huge number of small buck sightings, much more so than does. Does that mean our area needs Earn-A-Buck? No. Does that mean some other area of the state doesn't? No. Does that mean another area of the state doesn't need a doe or buck lottery? No. The state & it's pressure is very diverse & the herd is going gang busters in one area & 50 miles away it's not very good. Is that really all that surprising? You can look at two farms both farmed by good farmers who know what they're doing. One produces way more crop because they have better land, that's just the way it is.

My gun party basically always does well, except back 25 years ago when there truly were very few deer in our area. Parties very near to us can be very up & down from year to year. Is that because we're better hunters? In some cases, yes I think so, but in some cases it's because our land is better & the deer want to go there when the lead starts flying. If you're hunting one 25 acre pasture with some willows & a couple of small sloughs surrounded by many acres of empty fields, that ground can only hold so many deer. It stands to reason for there to be a lot of deer there, the prime places have to be absolutely overrun with deer. That versus a couple hundred acres of woods & swamp interspersed around fields, which is going to support more deer?

[realtower]

Bigbuck,If I come off with a bad tone its because Im passionate about what I belive. Im my book a small wind drive is fine but when 10-15 guys line up a push a field or woods and shoot every deer that comes out I think that is not hunting. I know some of you have always hunted that way and maybe thats all you know. If I would have stayed in western MN I may have been doing the same. I just believe that safe or not when the excitement is there and it has to happen fast mistakes are made. I love all the ideas and like to see more people then not want change. What I would ask yourself is what are you doing about it? If nothing make your voice herd. Also know that more and more changes are happing higher up in the DNR and alot of them have the same opinion as alot of you. So I think we will see a few of your ideas real soon. Like it or not at least its getting talked about!

[brassman]

This is in response to all of those who are against earn a buck regulations and in general letting small bucks grow up to be bigguns.

When I go out hunting (and this is in an area that holds larger than normal numbers of deer where does out number bucks by a large ratio) Most of the time all I see are does. By my house there are tons and tons of does. When we go out into the woods to deer hunt we regard ourselves as hunters getting venison for the freezer or having a good time with freinds, but to the DNR we are a mass extermination program that keeps the deer herd in check. I can shoot 5 deer annually legally btu I choose not to shoot that many.

I myself have shot 6 does and one spike in my hunting career and take no shame in shooting does and there is no reason anybody else should. To me they taste just the same as a buck. In a low deer density area I can understand letting does walk, but in an area where there are visible browse lines I feel obligated to do my part in the management game, in all we want healthier deer and to some extent more of the them. My problem is when people say they will pass up does to shoot a buck. In this wonderful state they have started a subsidized venison donation program so blast away, do your part in the managment of the does that run rampant across much of this state.

I have heard a few stories from this year where "All I saw were bucks, what am I supposed to do?" First off tell me where your hunting! Joking aside, I am going to question your validity and question your hunting tactics, I would be worried if all your seeing is bucks.

Having an earn a buck program where it is needed. (my zone and area) would help complete two managment goals that are both beneficial to the deer herd. Defining a healthy herd as a herd where there is a steady mix of all age classes of both bucks and does. Also where the buck to doe ratio is near or at 1:1. A close ratio helps intensify the rut creating better luck for hunters. To have to shoot one doe before a buck would help lessen the amount of deer overall.

Less deer means more native browse and better nutrition for all deer increasing both body weight and for bucks, antler size. I have never seen a person complain about their deer's antlers being "Too big". In the end we harvest a deer for it meat anyways, whats wrong with having more of it, and shooting a doe to get it?

My angle has to be that it is rediculous and selfish to not shoot a doe only to shoot a small buck in its place. ( where deer numbers are numerous, that is.) I do not mean to offend anyone but It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that there are too many does around and it will only get worse if we only harvest 250,000 deer a year with a majority of them being bucks that the remaining bucks can fill their void in the breeding department. Only perpetuating the deer numbers. It has been scientifically proven that the only way to downsize deer numbers through hunting is to take a lot of the does out.

[Eric Wettschreck]

This is one of the problems the DNR must face all the time.

Minnesota is a HUGE state. It is so diverse in it's layout and landscape, and that is one the of reasons it's so wonderful. What works well in one zone would be absolutely terrible in another. I don't know about yous guys but I think the regs are confusing enough.

With the exception of a few posts, this has been an interesting debate. A lot of different opinions.

[Coach1310]

96Trigger--I couldn't agree with you more. A trophy is a trophy because "YOU NOT OTHERS THINK IT IS A TROPHY." I don't think a big 12 would be that great, if everyone was shooting big 12's and 14's etc. First and foremost be thankful you have all the great outdoor opportunities you have in this great state. Is there room for improvement?? Sure, but just because you sit in a stand for 3 days and all you see are does doesn't mean the DNR isn't doing a good job. MN is filled with varying types of habitat and terrain and trying to manage it to perfection is impossible. If you feel more does need to be harvested, by all means do so. If you feel small bucks aren't to be shot, don't shoot them. Do as you wish within the law to use our valueable resource in MN. Could things be better?? That all depends on what you define as better or worse..... but I am sure things could be worse for all of us....a lot worse.

[96trigger]

Coach, we could only be one or two really bad winter's away from that. If those spring storms last year would have hit in January and not March, we could have lost a considerable amount of deer. I am thankful every time I go out and see deer, whether they be does or small bucks.

I think that everyone is in agreement with the fact that Minnesota is huge and very diverse and that one plan will not work for the state. We on here, like to see big horns, go and look in the firearm pics thread and you will see some very nice Minnesota deer. I get a little fired up when people try and tell me what a trophy is. I've wanted to shoot a trophy whitetail for years, I never came close in 7 years of hunting 3B (which my family hunts, therefore, so do I), so I took up bow hunting at age 18. I have passed on many small bucks for the last 11 years as I am now 29. I can honestly say that I have only taken one immature buck with my bow since I started. The last 3 years I really got picky and devoted to finding a trophy, passing on what I can only estimate at 50 bucks that weren't wall hangers in my book. Last year I missed a 150+ class buck with my bow. This year I connected on a 168 green score buck 2 days before the firearm season. It took me 11 years, thats one year more than a decade to finally shoot a trophy.

My point is, that I didn't need the DNR to restrict points, or tell me to earn a doe. I just went out and did it. I don't know of too many people that are willing to put in the time, money, and effort that I did. I think that too many people want to walk out their door on opening morning and shoot a boone and crocket. I feel that these are the people that are making the most noise about the DNR not doing there job. I will stand by my original statement ten pages ago, the big bucks are out there, right here in Minnesota, right now, if you want em, GO GET Em. If you dont want to work for it, pay to go hunt a game farm. God knows there were days in my stand when it crossed my mind. But let me tell you, connecting on that 168 was the single most gratifying day of hunting I have ever had, and I have had some great ones.

[archerystud]

Deer management in MN is kind of like planning a company Xmas party, You'll never please everyone.

In my life I've taken what I would call 4 "quality" bucks. Of those 4 one was taken in Missouri and I took two of the others on a property I began hunting about 6 years ago in zone 601.

I grew up in Henderson and still do a majority of my hunting back there. I've hunted around there for 27 years (with both a bow and a gun) and have only taken one quality buck in that area (although I've probably spent about 85% of my hunting time there). I've been passing up bucks for 16 seasons and they just aren't getting much bigger. I typically pass on between 10-25 smaller bucks per year.

I would just like to see some improvment so that I could connect more than once out of every 30 years. To me a quality buck does't have to be Pope & Young (with a bow) but it should be close.

[Coach1310]

96trigger, I completely agree with all you have said. Just wanted to make that clear.

As far as "we could only be one or two winters away from....a lot worse" That may be the case, but there is no way to manage or plan for that. If we reduce permits fearing a harsh winter and get a mild one with little snow, numbers would boom. What I am getting at is the DNR has to manage after they see what kind of hand they have been dealt by hunter harvest and winter kill.

Congrats on your deer. Are there pics on here? Just curious as I love to see the big bucks MN has to offer. I have seen some great bucks since I began hunting, but have been unable to connect on one for the wall yet, but that doesn't mean I think others are to blame or the DNR isn't doing its job. Connecting on a big buck means so many things have to go just right.... it just hasn't been in the cards for me yet, but I'm completely okay with that. Best of luck to you Trigger... I think this topic is about tapped out. I got into a little late, but I think most agree we are lucky to have the opportunities we do.

[Eric Wettschreck]

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I think this topic is about tapped out

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I agree. However, with the amount of different opinions, it's been one of the more interesting debates on FM I've seen in a while. I learned a lot.

[Coach1310]

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I think this topic is about tapped out

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I agree. However, with the amount of different opinions, it's been one of the more interesting debates on FM I've seen in a while. I learned a lot.

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Me too.

[surewood]

In my personal opinion I feel like if I shoot small deer year after year I'm not progressing as a hunter. Thats one big reason I pass on smaller bucks now. I feel if I shoot an immature buck I'm settling for mediocrity and I work to hard for a smarter mature deer to shoot a small one. On the other hand I do get excited when a kid/new hunter shoots any deer but I feel like thats the base in building an experienced hunter and it's time to move on. With that being said we all have different motivations and drive as hunters so I hope the DNR is doing it right.

[DeanoB]

Only thing I will add is it wasn't too many years ago when sections in Zone 3 were a lottery, you had to get drawn for a doe tag and now alot of those areas are intensive harvest! good thread everyone.

[96trigger]

Coach, I know the DNR manages year to year, I was referencing your "we don't know how good we got it comment". I meant that we could be one or too bad winters away from going back to to a 3B lottery. Still a good thread, but we are starting to see a few of the same comments out here. Any new perspective would be welcome.

And, Oh yeah, here is what Minnesota has to offer.

By the way, I'm obviously not good with the camera. I'm too close to the deer. I'm not a little guy and I think I make the rack look smaller than it really was. Still a heck of a nice deer. He'll be at the whitetail classic in Owatonna this spring.

[Dahitman44]

Question --

How can we get the DNRs attention so they know that people have this thoughts on management --

Can you send them the link? Would it matter to them?

My guess is no, but is it worth a try?

Moderator -- what do you think?

[Eric Wettschreck]

Hitman, trust me when I say they are watching. These threads are read on a very regular basis.

[chucker34]

Ditto. I'm pretty sure the top dog on the whitetail management side there has read this thread.

[Shack]

They may not have a screen name, but from what I have heard from CO's in my area, they read these threads and forums.

[Coach1310]

Great buck Trigger!! As far as the picture...no matter how you take a picture with that buck, its a good picture!! The only thing I could see as better is if I was holding the antlers Good luck with the rest of your season!!