Minnesota didn't get value for Moss or Culpepper

[cybermuskie]

Thought some of you might like to see this:

By John Clayton

ESPN.com

What are the Vikings thinking?

Two years ago, they were a trendy Super Bowl pick. They had Randy Moss at wide receiver and Daunte Culpepper at quarterback. Following the 2004 season, both players were 28-years-old and in their prime. Moss was the league's ultimate playmaker, a receiver almost impossible to overthrow and known for making the impossible catch, especially in the red zone.

Culpepper was a freak. The league's biggest starting quarterback at 268 pounds, Culpepper was a load for smaller opposing linebackers to bring down. Plus, he had the speed and moves to run like a halfback. On top of all that, he had a rocket arm and could average 30 touchdowns a year.

Vikings fans slept well at night knowing both Moss and Culpepper were under contract into their thirties. Moss was signed through 2008; Culpepper was signed through 2012.

So what are the Vikings thinking giving up both players within a year for wide receiver Troy Williamson, linebacker Napoleon Harris and a second-round pick in 2006? New owner Zygi Wilf wasn't part of the Moss trade. That was from the Red McCombs era.

The organization decided there were too many incidents involving Moss that were distractions. So the Vikings shopped him in a trade, didn't wait to get value and ended up getting the seventh pick in the draft and Harris, who ended up playing only 25 percent of the downs.

They drafted Williamson with that No. 7 pick last year. He is a fast deep threat, but he played in only 29 percent of the offensive downs last season. Harris' days in Minnesota are probably numbered, because the Vikings spent $4 million a year to get outside linebacker Ben Leber out of San Diego. Plus, Harris is in the final year of his contract.

Championship teams are built around five key positions -- quarterbacks, receivers, cornerbacks, tackles and defensive ends who are playmakers. The Vikings ended up giving up 40 percent of those cornerstone positions for Williamson, who is a fast prospect but caught only 24 passes for 372 yards in 2005, and whatever they get in the second round this year.

What are the Vikings thinking?

Thanks to good cap management, though, the Vikings have the salary space to bring in top players. Williamson might develop into a big-play threat. They hit gold with Koren Robinson, whom they re-signed after his amazing comeback season from alcohol problems (Robinson made the Pro Bowl in 2005 as a return man.)

The organization apparently didn't like Culpepper's contract demands this offseason. Moreover, he didn't hit it off with new head coach Brad Childress by not working out at the team facility. Culpepper preferred to train in Florida. New coaches want their quarterbacks in town.

The Dolphins were so determined to find a potential franchise quarterback that they were willing to give up a second-round pick to get Culpepper sight unseen, even though he had a knee reconstruction last fall. Top quarterbacks are hard to find, which is why it's so curious that the Vikings would give up Culpepper so cheaply.

Back in the Dennis Green days, the Vikings made trips to the playoffs each year, even though Green went through a long list of veteran quarterbacks in the later stages of their careers. Although that strategy might get you to the playoffs, it's hard to win a Super Bowl with what you might consider transitional quarterbacks.

Culpepper, when healthy, has the ability to win a Super Bowl. It's interesting that he's going to the Dolphins, a team, like the Vikings, that had nine wins in 2006. Miami head coach Nick Saban felt he got the most he could out of the aging Gus Frerotte.

The Dolphins juggled whether to trade for Culpepper or sign Drew Brees. Both had problems. Brees had shoulder surgery. Culpepper had a major knee surgery.

But look at the impact of what a quarterback can do.

Carson Palmer put the Bengals on the playoff map in Cincinnati. Fortunately, he went to a franchise that had a coach, Marvin Lewis, who knew what to do with such a commodity. He sat him for a year and let him blossom into a Pro Bowl quarterback.

If Palmer comes back from his knee injury, the Bengals, like the Steelers with Ben Roethlisberger, will be Super Bowl contenders every year. The Patriots won three Super Bowls with their franchise quarterback, Tom Brady.

Part of the Vikings' problem was the transition from McCombs to Wilf. They traded Moss, and McComb didn't give former head coach Mike Tice enough money to keep offensive coordinator Scott Linehan (now the Rams' head coach). The one-two impact of losing Moss and Linehan, plus poor blocking in the middle of the line, led to Culpepper having his worst season in five years.

For the Dolphins, Culpepper can pay huge dividends if he's healthy. The Vikings, with Childress as the coach, should make a playoff run with Brad Johnson, but they will be in the market for a franchise quarterback for the next few years.

The Vikings can only hope they can be as successful as the Seattle Mariners were when they went through a period in which they lost Ken Griffey Jr. and Alex Rodriguez.

The Mariners won games but no championships after Griffey and Rodriguez left. It's hard to replace franchise players, and the Vikings hardly got value. What are they thinking?

John Clayton is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

[CodyDawg]

I dont know if I agree at all with this comment:

"Championship teams are built around five key positions -- quarterbacks, receivers, cornerbacks, tackles and defensive ends who are playmakers."

In the last 5 years, New England won 3 times with nobody at WR, TB won once with nobody at WR. I think LB are pretty important as well, perhaps more so than tackles or DEs. I agree with corners though. QBs, I would like to think so, then I remember Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson (whom I like, but is not a stud QB). And even Big Ben is not a stud QB....he rode the wagon, but only steered a little.

[PikeBayCommanche]

I agree Clayton does not know what he is talking about we are all as much of an "expert" as him.

Even if you look at Pittsburgh they didn't have all of those postions filled with stars.

I agree LB's change a game if they are good.

[Jarrod32]

To properly determine the value of the Moss and C-Pep trades, we need to see what the Vikes do with the cap room that they have freed up. If they can translate that into good value, then the trades will look better.

[Fishin Beast]

Um we actually did get equal value for both. What has Moss done? Where did his team go last season ?

I would have delt Culpepper for a bag of airline peanuts.

We got rid of them when there wasn't anything left.

The worst value ever was getting rid of David Ortiz. That guy is a monster.

[IFallsRon]

What's the value of a quarterback who averages a turnover a game and has a blownout knee? If the Vikings hadn't made a deal for DC, he would have been cut. At least they got a draft pick.

[buzzsaw]

I just had to chime in... I for one don't think it's all that traggic for us Minnesota fans, I mean it's pipsqueeks, err I mean Clayton's job to sell his point on TV and he's trying... I'm just not buying. Bottom line is we really had no choice but to trade the sad sack and move on. Has he had great seasons? YES!! Has he had a crappy season? YES Is he guaranteed of coming back 100% from his bad knee injury? NO! I'm fine with the trade... Randy Moss??? I was more disappointed with that one, but he was a bit of a fool and clubhouse cancer... atleast I don't have to listen to his ramblings that make no sense... that guy should be taking extension classes, he talks like a bafoon. Besides Randy has proven to be injury prone the last few years. Give the new regime time, I really think they have a solid plan in place and in a couple years we will be talking about how much better things are and how horrible the drive is to Anoka!! But how sweet the new stadium is!! If you ask me, Ziggy is a determined no nonsense owner that will get things turned around soon.

[nofishfisherman]

The Dolphins gave a 2nd round pick to get Jay Feeley a few years ago. Who do you think is better C-pep or Feeley?

[CodyDawg]

A blown out knee CPep or a healthy Feely? Hard to say. Time will tell. Higher risk/higher reward with CPEP.

[bucketmouth64]

I was hoping Vikes could have received more like another player or a conditional draft choice (1st or 2nd)in 2007. We got a player and draft pick from Oakland, so I was hoping something similar would have happened. I hope they find a sleeper qb in the draft or do a trade for Schaub in Atlanta. It's gonna be interesting up until draft day.

[8-Ball]

I say good riddens to the whiner. He was a coward as well. Would not even address his new coach face to face-called him on the phone and sent e-mails after flying all the way here from Fla.? He is 29 going on 9. He basically forced the hand of the ownership trio to dump him. He refused to come up to Winter Park to learn the new offense or rehab his knee. Why keep him? Think about it. If your new boss needs you to learn some new procedures or programs and you refuse to comply, what would your boss do? If you sucked at your job for half a year, then went out on light-duty because of an injury, than had the ordacity/balls to demand a ridiculous raise..H'mm.. I know my Supv. would show me the door post haste. For those that think he is going to get back to MVP-type caliber play- you are dreamin'. Sayonara sad-sack.

[harvey lee]

He is like a lab with bad hips or a horse with a bad leg and you know what they are worth.Hope he likes Florida,probably wont be there long .

[floating minnow]

I say congrats to Daunte.After all the hate and low class name calling on this site and in other places I'm glad to see he is exactly where he wants to be.

[lawdog]

Quote:

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I say congrats to Daunte.After all the hate and low class name calling on this site and in other places I'm glad to see he is exactly where he wants to be.

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I'm glad to see he's there too. Now I won't have to watch him misread defenses two out of three plays like he did last year or drop the football about every 4th or 5th time he touches it, or hear him whine about this and that.

Draft me a young gun QB and let him learn from Brad for a year or two and we will go places!

[8-Ball]

Maybe if he was man enough to look his coach, the owner, or fans in the eye instead of communicating through cowardly e-mails, he would be thought of a little better around here. I will agree w/ you that he is in a better place now-we don't have to deal w/ all the frustration and immaturity and the "me 1st" attitude he has displayed here over the last seven years. Read the article in todays Strib. Childress got fed up with it almost from day one with Mr. Me 1st. Watch out Miami fans, here he comes..

[floating minnow]

8-Ball,

He's a coward for writing the e-mails instead of looking you in the eye?What does that make someone who goes on a fishing HSOforum and calls people all kinds of names rather than looking Daunte in the eye?Do you know both sides of all the conversations that went on between the Vikings and Duante.I do not, so to blame it all on Daunte would be total speculation on my part.Also,excluding this year could you please explain to me all the "me 1st" attitude he has displayed for the seven years he has been here.

Lawdog, did he actually misread two out of every three plays and fumble every four times he touched the ball or is that just more hyperbole coming from someone who practices law.

Maybe I don't get it but I just can't get that angry about anything that happens in a sport.

[Bobby Bass]

As a fan I have every right to complain about any player or team that I support by buying tickets, clothing or using products that are promoting that team or player. From all the posts that I have seen here no one has attacked Culpepper the person but Culpepper the player. As a fan I can do that. Only time will tell if those of us who complain about his playing will pan out. I am going to make it a point to address this string in a year and review Culpepper the player and how he fares in Miami. Would love to kick his butt in the Superbowl... ( so how's that for a dream???

[floating minnow]

Bobby,

Coward,jerk,one-who-thinks-I-am-silly,loser,piece of dump,bum,dumbte,putz.These are just a few things said by the guys on this site.Maybe at Lake Iwanttobethere this would not be considered attacking the person but where I come from it surely is.

I also believe you have every right to complain and I enjoy reading a good debate on the facts,however when it goes beyond that I think it needs to be pointed out.

[8-Ball]

FM- Yes, he is a coward. Not once did he go in front of the media or the fans or the coaching staff, to explain WHY he would not meet in person w/ his new boss, or WHY he would not learn the new system here, which he was expected to do. I think calling him a coward is pretty much as Minnesota Nice as I can be. I will second other post that I indeed have every right to express my opinion on himas a player, and everything I have expressed is about him,as a player, and the way he mishandled everything about the whole love-boat scandal, his injury, his relationship w/ Childress, etc... I , for one am glad he is outta here and I am not in the minority on that, either. Check the previous post on his stats the last few years, in terms of win/loss-the stats that really count-not TD passes and yards thrown or completion percentages. Proof is in the pudding.

[Caesarfishinguytoo]

Quote:

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Check the previous post on his stats the last few years, in terms of win/loss-the stats that really count-not TD passes and yards thrown or completion percentages. Proof is in the pudding.

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Hmm? So every win and every loss is the quarterbacks on the team??? No one else contributes or is to blame?

Here are some stats for you

2004

Vikings

Defense points allowed - 26th in the NFL

Offense points scored - 6th in the NFL

New England

Defense points allowed - 2nd in the NFL

Offense points scored - 4th in the NFL

2005

Vikings

Defense points allowed - 23rd in the NFL

Offense points scored - 6th in the NFL

Buccaneers

Defense points allowed - 4th in the NFL

Offense points scored - 18th in the NFL

I will also throw in the 2005 stats of the Steelers

Defense points allowed - 3rd in the NFL

Offense points scored - 9th in the NFL

Proof is in the pudding!! You want to WIN the superbowl?? Might want to put a better defense on the field and not blame Dante when he was putting the points on the board; but the problem was the defense couldn't keep the opposing offense out of the endzone!!

Come on people!! Was Dante perfect? Hell no! Was he the answer? I don't know, but maybe just maybe he wasn't to blame either!!!

We can't always believe the media, they want to make a story and make it good too!! Since Dante was giving them fuel they brought the matches and lit er up!! A previous poster said do we know the whole story or the real story, no we don't we just know what the media has been telling us!!

I like some of the posters saying we should go after Schaub of the Falcons, but sounds like the price for him is too high! I don't know if I am a college quarterback fan, unless you get a diamond in the ruff! I don't like wasting a high draft pick on one! For every Manning or Palmer there are 5 Akli Smiths, Ryan Leafs or Hutchinsons etc...

Just my 2 cents and no matter what the Vikes do or don't do I will be watching the game, THIS GUY BLEEDS PURPLE!!!

[Fishin Beast]

But those stats are blurred.

Dante giving up so many turnovers a game, made the defense be out there that much longer. Every time I watched the defense was always on the field. Not their fault. Brad gave them alittle breather between being out there and they did great.

Every stat is definitely messed up because of all the turnovers Culpepper had. Sure some quick points were on the board, but also alot of quick tournovers and 3 n outs.

So stat this stat that, did he not lead the league in turnovers just about every year but one?

We will see what happens with the draft and fa.

[Caesarfishinguytoo]

point taken - stats are just that stats but to blame our losses on the QB like most posters are doing I feel is ridiculous and many are referncing the turnovers and such. The total defense for the Vikes too wasn't good so we can't blame it on a short field either they were like 26th and 23rd in the NFL in 2004 and 2003 so they were giving up the yardage too!!!

Here are the infamous Fumbles lost stats of some of the other known QBs since 2000

Culpepper - 36/Avg 6 a year

Brady - 22/3.7 a year

Bledsoe - 31/5 a year

Dehlomme - 6 a year since starter

Favre - 25/ a little over 4 a year

McNabb - 24/4 a year

McNair - 23/4 a year

Vick - 5 a year since starter

Now - granted Culpepper fumbles the ball more a year than most of these athletes but as far as fumbles lost, he isn't much different then some of these other great/not so great qbs!

Once again, just stats but people like to use the fumbles that Culpepper has, but he didn't lose that many!

Now there might be someone once again throwing in the numbers are skewed because it won't show the times he might of fumbled and recovered, but was on 3rd down or put us out of field goal range, but the final numbers don't lie and those were he was putting up the points on the board.

I will stick with my first opinion that it wasn't Culpepper, it wasn't the offense, but I want to put more blame on the defense. Put our defense in the top 10 in 2003 or 2004 and you can't tell me we wouldn't of gotten somewhere in the NFL playoffs!

Okay that is it!! I am done with the stats, I have either made my point and maybe turned one person to my way of thinking or haven't done jack and people are saying who cares!!! shut this stat boy up please!!!

[walleyehawk]

Dante wanted to be moved, so he acted like a baby. Had he acted mature, worked with the new coach on understanding the defense, rehab in Minnesota, this would not have been an issue. If he did not have the bonus due, they could have just ignored him and his whining and in time this all would have disappeared. Healed, he would have had more value.

The real problem was the $6 million he was due. He was not worth it to the Vikings, and to get a 2nd or 3rd round pick and not have to pay the 6 mil, he was worth dumping. The value in the picks always comes just before the draft, but it would have cost the Vikings a chunk of change to maybe improve value for Dante. Besides, what did the Eagles get for T.O.? Nothing!

Dante will never be the same. Even if he recovers, one shot in that knee and he is done for good.

Besides, now he can do all his party boat activities and truely be in international waters!!

p.s. Pray he floats into Cuban waters and they keep him!