Deer are worse than global warming

[swamptiger]

Did the DNR ever figure out how to get regen on cedar?

Just curious, because I remember they fenced off a cedar cut, and it just grew back in brush anyway. This was back in the late 80s, I believe.

[Pinusbanksiana]

More than just DNR managing our forests. And more than just one deer exclusion fence in the state. Which area are you referring too? You have to do more than just fence off an area. The seed bed needs to be correct, seed source present viable and the fence needs to be maintained. A fallen tree over the wire and deer are on those seedlings before you know it.

And brush is more commonly called shrubs, each have a name and are important.

[jigginjim]

If they would like the deer herd thinned out Call me. I'll even pay them $40 for each large buck I kill. I need the display mounts for my taxidermy.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

More than just DNR managing our forests. And more than just one deer exclusion fence in the state. Which area are you referring too? You have to do more than just fence off an area. The seed bed needs to be correct, seed source present viable and the fence needs to be maintained. A fallen tree over the wire and deer are on those seedlings before you know it.

This particular area was on Hwy 72 south of Waskish. They put up a high chain link fence so nothing could get in there after the cedar was cut.

Quote:

And brush is more commonly called shrubs, each have a name and are important.

Yes, but the intent was to get cedar regeneration. The experiment failed, so I was just wondering if there was ever any further experimentation with cedar regeneration, in particular.

That's all, not trying to start an argument.

[slimngrizzly]

So toss science out the window and listen to JimBob the carpet layer. Ok I see where this is going. I guess I'll bow out to you "experts". Go ahead and discuss what you think you know instead of asking questions and learning.

To me this is the biggest problem in the management of every natural resource in MN. We hire people for 60 or 80 grand a year with doctorates in Wildlife and Resource Mngmt and we rely on them to know whats right for our resources, and then all that gets thrown out the window because right, wrong, or otherwise, the state does what Joe Public wants it to.

Toss science out the window.... THATS HOW ITS DONE HERE!

[spivak]

Outdoor Wisconsin produces a deer hunting show every fall on the upcoming season and one of the segments from 2013 directly addressed this issue.

[Bear55]

So toss science out the window and listen to JimBob the carpet layer. Ok I see where this is going. I guess I'll bow out to you "experts". Go ahead and discuss what you think you know instead of asking questions and learning.

Please point out the science in that article, all I see is a bunch of bias opinions. Lets be honest you don't need to be a rocket scientist to grow trees. As a matter of fact if you put ever forester on the chopping block right now the trees would grow on their own just fine.

[fivebucks]

We have a bunch of cedar on our property and we get plenty of small cedar trees growing come late summer but none of them ever make it past 3" as they get eaten. I should transplant them into pots in protected areas just to get some regen.

[swamptiger]

Snowshoe hares are just as deadly on cedar and white pine as deer. Bud capping is ok, but the only real effective method I've found to deal with it is to enclose the trees in wire mesh until they get about 6' high or so. Not practical on a large scale, but it works.

[hockeybc69]

We need to raise the limits on bugs bunny too! Those terrible critters.

[swamptiger]

With a daily limit of 10, and a possession limit of 20, who needs venison?..

[SmellEsox]

PA has a HUGE deer problem. They need to fence off areas of oak regeneration to stock their forests. At a huge expense. I have toured sites in PA numerous times and I can see the trouble they have to grow trees. http://www.upenn.edu/paflora/id13.htm

We are headed in that direction

Deer populations are lower than they've been in 30+ years. Why are we heading in that direction? Seems we're heading in the other direction. And how many dpsm would allow for a healthy ecosystem? And I truly would love to see some MN research that shows the impacts. To me, deer couldn't be low enough for a tree farmer or forest ecologist. A doe and her two fawns could wipe out 80 acres of pine plantation in a year or two. To protect an investment like this, there would have to be basically no deer.

[leech~~]

With a daily limit of 10, and a possession limit of 20, who needs venison?..

When was the last time you were out bunny hunting? Good luck trying to even find 10 a day let alone 20, snowshoes at least! I use to have a lot of fun hunting them in the winter but can hardly find 1-2 in one spot anymore and I use to have spots where they were as thick as wood ticks!

[swamptiger]

There's a few isolated pockets left - just like the deer...

[vister]

If deer are actually a threat to the forests, maybe they should find a way to entice deer to dine on buckthorn. Then the deer would be heros.

[SmellEsox]

What scenario would have more plant diversity on the forest floor, a mature forest dominated by white pine or a mixed deciduous forest with 25 deer per square mile? And where is this lack of white pine anyways? I see lots of them growing in central MN, even in Camp Ripley which probably has some of the highest deer densities in the state and, for that matter, is known to have some of the highest diversity of plant and animal life in the state.

Anyways, I would guess a forest dominated by white pine would be somewhat devoid of plant life on the forest floor. I would guess it would have little wildlife value as well. Perhaps white pine is more dire than global warming?? With the way deer populations currently are, I think we might have nuisance levels of white pine on the landscape soon. LOL.

[swamptiger]

Ever hear of the White Pine Society or the Restore The White Pine Act?

Does the name Lynn Rogers ring a bell?

Just dropping some clues. You can do your own research.

[Pinusbanksiana]

What scenario would have more plant diversity on the forest floor, a mature forest dominated by white pine or a mixed deciduous forest with 25 deer per square mile? And where is this lack of white pine anyways? I see lots of them growing in central MN, even in Camp Ripley which probably has some of the highest deer densities in the state and, for that matter, is known to have some of the highest diversity of plant and animal life in the state.

Anyways, I would guess a forest dominated by white pine would be somewhat devoid of plant life on the forest floor. I would guess it would have little wildlife value as well. Perhaps white pine is more dire than global warming?? With the way deer populations currently are, I think we might have nuisance levels of white pine on the landscape soon. LOL.

Seeing some white pine growing in areas is different than a forester trying to establish a stand of timber. A forester doesn't just plant trees. The ideal situation is to establish a timber stand naturally and not artificially. So when the overstory is removed, there will eventually be an adequately stocked stand of timber growing there in the future, desirable timber species and the not so much desirable species (lumber and pulp).

Fort Ripley is diverse because it is located in the southern reaches of the forested zone in our state. As you go north, species abundance drops off.

Of Course a mixed, young deciduous timber stand has more diversity, this is common knowledge. It is also common knowledge that deer browse is just as bad in deciduous forests as it is in conifers. Have you ever walked into a mature mixed aspen/oak stand and it is possible to see many yards through the understory? That is because everything is nipped off. All critters suffer because of this, from amphibians, to birds and even the deer eventually. Flora as well. Just because someone sees some trillium or white pine growing here or there is not an adequate argument. As far as the science goes, Google Scholar will bring up more articles than you can read in a month. More than you can read in the time between now and deer season.

[ANYFISH2]

Oh please, jackpine. Any plant speices is a producer in an ecosystem, deer, rabbits/hares, rodents, birds, and any other herbivore will and do eat plants/producers. Always have and always will, you all can fence off a small plot to protect it from herbivores and of course it will grow better and look more "natural". That expirement is so unnatural it should embarrass you "professionals".

Face it, all these timberstands are all about timber sales and revenue. There is a difference between browsing and overbrowsing. I have seen true overbrowseing in the cities and camp ripley, but only in wintering grounds in 95-97. Guess what the next "40" over had very little browsing at all.

Mature pine or deciduous forests have little understory because the canopy blocks to much sunlight, not that there are to many deer. There is a reason deer are found in greater numbers in young forests, more food.

[Pinusbanksiana]

Oh please, jackpine. Any plant speices is a producer in an ecosystem, deer, rabbits/hares, rodents, birds, and any other herbivore will and do eat plants/producers. Always have and always will, you all can fence off a small plot to protect it from herbivores and of course it will grow better and look more "natural". That expirement is so unnatural it should embarrass you "professionals".

Face it, all these timberstands are all about timber sales and revenue. There is a difference between browsing and overbrowsing. I have seen true overbrowseing in the cities and camp ripley, but only in wintering grounds in 95-97. Guess what the next "40" over had very little browsing at all.

Mature pine or deciduous forests have little understory because the canopy blocks to much sunlight, not that there are to many deer. There is a reason deer are found in greater numbers in young forests, more food.

And what is wrong with timber revenue? You make me sound like a deer hater. I hunt. Do I wish there were more deer around? Heck yes, around the second week in NOvember. But when I am trying to establish an oak stand to naturally regenerate, not so much.

[ANYFISH2]

See jackpine, I have nothing against timber revenue, or you. I assume you are educated in natural resources/forestry, so am/was (long time ago now) I, after school I talked and worked with various foresters and couldn't believe the double talk they do. The whole we create habitat by supplying a food source by a timber sale, to we have a problem with critters because they eat our regeneration. Both are true, but they are spun to fit the kind of audience they would have. They aways looked like the good guy. I got tired of it.

Also if you want natural oak regeneration I hope your patient? Oak is difficult to regen as you know, tough to get past 8" tall without being in a nursery. But that is natural, in a mature oak forest/savanna the trees are often seperated by many years/decades. They grow slow, tough to recruit to maturity, but live a long time once established. I wish you the best of luck, but to agree with such hog wash, such as the original articles spin on the truth, is dissapionting.

[Pinusbanksiana]

See jackpine, I have nothing against timber revenue, or you. I assume you are educated in natural resources/forestry, so am/was (long time ago now) I, after school I talked and worked with various foresters and couldn't believe the double talk they do. The whole we create habitat by supplying a food source by a timber sale, to we have a problem with critters because they eat our regeneration. Both are true, but they are spun to fit the kind of audience they would have. They aways looked like the good guy. I got tired of it.

Article was accurate. Sorry if you don't agree.

[hockeybc69]

Accurate or not, the sky isnt falling. Deal with the isolated cases of wildlife damage as needed.

Dont paint the whole state as approaching armageddon.

That article is a joke in the way its written. Spin doctors at work. You included Pinus.

[Pinusbanksiana]

Neither I nor the article painted the situation as you say Armageddon or the sky is falling. I think the article did say that the deer problem is worse than the global warming problem which is 100% accurate.

[smsmith]

The statement "Deer are worse than global warming" is pure hyperbole....nothing else