Outdoor Wood Boilers

[jiggin9]

In lieu of the recent cold temperatures and the rise in propane prices, I was just curious what people think of outdoor wood boilers. Like many debates, I have heard both ends.

I have a york heat pump w/elect. plenum heater and a high efficient propance furnace in my home (2800 sq ft). I am a fan of the heat pump. Its easy on the light bill but it only operates to 15 degrees so its out of comission for most of the winter. I am not too impressed with the propane furnace however and after doing the math it seems to be burning $20 propane/day. I realize there are many factors in heating costs for every source of heat but was just looking into the pros and cons of an outdoor wood boiler.

[Surface Tension]

You might be spending $20 a day on the coldest days but over the heating season your not and of coarse your heat pump should take care of your heating needs most of the time.

$20 this winter could buy you 7-15 gallons of propane depending on how you buy it.

I preorder in July, if I wouldn't have done that it would hurt to pay going price now.

I know someone with an outdoor wood boiler. He pays zero for heat and little for hot water but all that wood put up next to the boiler didn't drop from the sky. You have to like cutting, hauling and stacking wood. You have to load the boiler twice a day and clean it out once in a while. Having said that when the wood pile is full and winter begins he loves the wood boiler.

Thing is you already have the heat pump and high eff furnace.

Now add on a boiler at a cost of say $6000. How long will it take to pay for itself?

Remember you'll have to cut wood on top of that.

Or prebuy your propane in July and go fishing on your days off.

[PurpleFloyd]

My in-laws who live in the north woods of Wisconsin run them in their houses but also have trees right on the property to harvest. They do a great job of heating and they harvest smaller diameter trees 6-10 inches and cut them into 3-4' long sticks which makes it faster to process and stack and no splitting.

They have fuel oil backup on theirs because that was cheap when they built.

Like stated above-you need to feed them 2x a day and maintain them plus it's a good idea to have a backup pump on hand and know how to change one out.

If you have trees to harvest and chain saws etc already you may save money over a long time but if you need to search for wood and buy the equipment then it is tougher. Insurance companies will make you locate it 50' from any structure and the insulated pex and cost of the trencher need to be considered.

Personally I would never retro one into an existing system bug thats me. If it were new construction and fit the bhdget and lifestyle then maybe.

[jiggin9]

Thanks for the input guys. I did purchase one tank on summer fill for around $1.15/gal. I wish I would of contracted a 1000 gallons now but probably couldnt of afforded that much. The price of propane around here was at $3.05/gal yesterday! Ouch!

As for the boiler, I do have access to wood and I do not consider cutting wood a hobby of mine but do find it somewhat enjoyable. I probably dont have as much select wood as Northen WI but enough to keep the stove hot. I built a house 2 years ago now and made the decision to go with propane and elect as my two heat sources. I think it was under $1 then for propane. Go figure. I guess I was mainly gun shy of the outdoor wood boilers from hearing about the problems and hassles involved with them. There are 3 wood stove manufacturers in my area (central boiler, heatmor and woodmaster). Not sure which is the best or which stories to believe but I do see them more often now. While the $6000+ for another heat source is out of my budget right now I was just curious as to what other people have encountered with these units.

[BobT]

My brother has been burning wood for the past 30 years. Until about five years ago his wood boiler was in his basement alongside the fuel oil boiler. Now he uses an outdoor boiler.

The first advantage to moving his boiler outside was a savings in his homeowner’s insurance. I don’t know how much it saved though.

The second advantage is the way he plumbed the system to use the heat from his outdoor boiler to heat his water heater. During the winter his water heater never has to run to heat water. I’m not exactly sure how it’s done but he plumbed a loop in the water line on his water heater and on that loop he included a jacket that allows the outdoor boiler water to circulate around the loop and heat the water in his water heater. There’s no pump to circulate the water from his water heater through the jacketed line but the system relies on convection to work. His hot water is hot enough to scald just by this convection action.

The third advantage is no more mess or smoke in the house.

A forth advantage is that his home does not have as much negative atmosphere because the wood stove is no longer venting inside air out through the chimney.

One disadvantage is that he has noticed it takes more wood to heat his home than it did before. I do not know how much more though. With the wood stove in the house, all the radiant heat from the stove was also put into the house. Now it is lost to the outside.

Another disadvantage is that he now has to go outside to put wood on the fire. However, this is offset by the fact that he only has to do it maybe two to three times a day depending on temperature due to the size of the boiler. In the house it took more tending.

[nolte]

I put in a central boiler two years ago. I bought a new house and my propane bill the year before wasn't pretty so I decided to install one. And that was a "warm" winter. I have no idea how much I'd have spent the last two winters if I kept with strictly propane.

Like others have said, the negatives are you have to cut some wood and tend it a couple times a day. So if you do plan to be gone, you've got to have someone take care of it for you. You can let the fire burn out if you've got another heat source, but it isn't a quick process to get a fire going and get the water up to temp. The upside is my hot water is free and my heating bill is cut way down. I tend to cut part of the wood myself and then have a load of 8 foot logs delivered, then just cut those up myself to size. I think 10-12 cord loads of oak are going for around $1000 here or a little less. Get a load of that in the spring, cut it up at your pace and you should be set for winter. Granted that is dependent on your heating situation. I've also got a run setup to heat my shed once it is finished, so I'll use more wood but have another heated area I can use in the winter.

I think I've got closer to $11K in my setup due to the long run of insulated tubing and some plumber work I couldn't do. They get a premium for that tubing $12/ft. But I'm already halfway there for it paying for itself.

There is a learning curve on how your system will best operate but if I can figure it out, anyone can. If I would have changed one thing it would have been to get one size bigger stove. Then I could get away with filling it once a day during the really cold times. Now I have to do it twice or 2.5 times when it's brutally cold. The three companies you mentioned all seem to be good. I know guys with all of them, but I got a central because everyone seemed to have good luck with them and recommended them. My 65 year old aunt has one that is probably 15 years old and has been operating it by herself since my uncle died 10 years ago. The only thing she's had to fix was the door solenoid last year. If you've got access to wood or want to put in a little work to heat and save a few bucks, they are the way to go.

[jiggin9]

Thanks for the input nolte. Which central boiler model do you own? Just like anything, you hear varying reports from every brand out there. I've heard great things about central boiler and then the exact opposite from the next guy. How much wood does your system typically go thru in the winter?

[haleysgold]

I'll throw this in just so you have something to compare to.

I have a Central Boiler that I installed when I built my house in '07.

It cost me me about $8k - $9k when it was all done...I had to run 150 feet of tube to the house.

House is 1500 SF and about once or twice a week, I turn the floor heat on in the basement to get the concrete warm.

I also heat the domestic water via a heat exchanger on the water heater.

I fill my LP tank once a year in July and it takes about 125 gals.

I use the gas stove, water heater and furnace with LP in the "off" season.

I only stoke my boiler "ONCE' per day.

I figure I use about 8 cords of wood a year. I have woods and drag logs to the door of the wood shed and cut/split there.

I keep the house at 71 when we are home and turn down to 67 at night and during the day.

I love the thing.

That being said, if I had to buy everything new today the only way I would do it is if my wood source was really close...like on my own land. If I had to travel to get it...probably not.

But, I like cutting wood and it's good exercise and I have a lot of dead trees that would otherwise rot.

Hope that helps. Good luck !

[jiggin9]

Sounds like a good system you have there haleysgold. With exception to the deadfall around my house to burn up, I'd prob buy a semi load and cut as needed. I have a relative on my wife's side that hauls timber in the winter. $8-9k sounds about right for a system installed from what I've heard around here. I might have to make the switch here soon with propane at $3.05/gal and probably going up. While propane is convenient heat, nothing feels or smells better than a wood stove.

[PurpleFloyd]

An alternative to paying full price for a new one would be to search the list from this guy Craig. There are a few for sale that could save you money and if you can plumb it yourself that would also bring down the cost and reduce the payback time.

[nolte]

Thanks for the input nolte. Which central boiler model do you own? Just like anything, you hear varying reports from every brand out there. I've heard great things about central boiler and then the exact opposite from the next guy. How much wood does your system typically go thru in the winter?

I've got the 5036 and I went through about 11-12 cord last year. But I had a hodge podge of wood (oak, pine, poplar) all green. Plus winter stretched into darn near May. This year I think I'll go through 12+ cord just because of the long stretches of cold. I've got a log house on slab, 2000 sq ft in living space and another 1000 sq ft in the attached garage. The garage isn't directly heated but it stays warm enough to keep the vehicles melted off. The house also has high vaulted ceilings with dormers, so I've got a lot of space to keep warm. I keep it set at about 67.

A buddy has a smaller house with a 4030 and he wishes he would have gotten my size stove. His works fine but he's got to fill it more than he'd like, especially when it's this cold. Plus his wife likes it at about 74.

[jiggin9]

I have kept my eye on hsolist in the area. I wonder if fire wood will go up in price now too that propane seems to keep going up? I've heard that from several people that they wish they would've got the next larger sized stove. I might pull the trigger this summer if O can find a decent used one or go all out on a new one. By that time maybe propane will be under $1. We all can hope! Thanks again for your input guys. Stay warm!

[delcecchi]

Might not be many used ones around...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/20...y-rural-people/

Once these rules go into effect, which is next year, old stoves will have to be destroyed rather than resold.

[jiggin9]

Good read delcecchi. I wasnt aware that they were trying to ban older versions that weren't compliant with current standards. I feel bad for anyone who purchased a used one if it's deemed inoperable after the fact. It will be interesting to see if this goes into effect in MN. Imagine if you bought a used boiler, had it installed and later find out you cant have it. Ouch!

[Biggerfish]

This is very interesting.....

Government cannot find more pressing issues to waste our tax money on?

Regulation in this country is getting out of hand. This is a perfect example of a government getting to big and tripping over a quarter to pick up a dime.

I about to build my compound and not let them in ;-)

[jerkbait]

What is considered to old of a stove? Mine is a 2007 and I know I am not going to get rid of it.

[jerkbait]

We have a Aquatherm wood boiler. It is a closed system so you can run antifreeze and should never have to add water to it. some you need to keep adding water I have heard because they are an open syatem. The other we liked about aquatherm is you can buy them without an incloser and build your own shed. We have ours in a 10x14 insulated and sheetrocked shed. We stack a weeks worth of wood in the shed each week. When it is time to load the wood stove i am inside the shed out of the elements, really nice when it is raining outside. They have a 15 year warranty. Another nice thing is the ash auger onthe bottom. The stove does not need to be shut down to clean the ash out.

[delcecchi]

Here is a link to the epa site. If you like your wood stove you can keep your wood stove. But you will not be able to sell or buy a non conforming stove, new or used, after the ordinances go into effect. And you may have to not have one in house when selling house. State laws get involved also. I am not sure what MN is going to do.

http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/ordinances.html

[pike79]

I installed a Heatmor wood boiler for my house 6yrs. ago and it has worked great, definetly uses a lot of wood I burn about 15 cords of wood to heat my house and I heat my water year round. Other down side if you can't fire it up 2 times a day you need to find someone to do it for you. When I put it in I figured at $2.00 a gallon propane avg. it would take 6 yrs. to pay for it self. I know a couple of people with the Heatmor thatare 20 plus years old units and the only thing they had to replace was the fan and water pump.

[JeffB]

I would look into one of the high efficiency wood boilers since you would use a lot less wood to get your heat. If a person is not going to cut your own wood I would go with a corn or pellet boiler. Easier to handle than wood and self feeding for when you go. There are even a few that will burn both cord wood or self feed wood pellets or corn. I'm looking at one of these for my shop and wood burn mostly wood, but if I run low of wood or was leaving for the weekend it could self feed corn.

[jiggin9]

I had never heard of Aquatherm before until now that jerkbait said he owned one. They look like a nice unit too after looking at their HSOforum. I know a few people around that have Heatmor and they like them too. I placed pex lines in both my garage and basement floors so I feel like Im kind of setup nice for a wood boiler in the future. I just need to get the funds and a little persuasion from current owners to pull the trigger on one.

[Big Dave2]

. If you like your wood stove you can keep your wood stove.

Where have I heard that before?

[jerkbait]

That made me chuckle.

[Bertner]

Figure I would jump in on this one too. I installed a Hardy h5 two years ago. Ours is tied into our existing system with oil fired boiler in the basement as the back up (1920's farm house). I keep the house at 72 degrees all winter and it's really nice to not have to call the oil guy for a fill up. That being said, it is also a lot of work. Like others have stated you need to enjoy cutting wood. For me it's become a hobby and it keeps me in shape. I load it twice a day and I really enjoy going ouside when it's -20 and opening the fire box door and feeling the warmth and watching the fire for a few minutes. I have plenty of timber on my property so that helps a ton too. There are a lot of different brands out there and if you decide to go down this road start with a good dealer. When something happens (and it will with ANY brand) you need to be able to get parts quick.

[low277]

The first wood boiler I ever saw was a Aquatherm installed inside a guys detached garage. It must have been in the mid 1980s. He may still be using it, I will have to ask him the next time I see him.