Lowering our Low Expectations

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

I think most hunters need to take a closer look at their own personal actions when it comes to the deer population.

Its easy to blame wolves, the DNR, or the guy baiting across the street. But when I see all the yearling does and fork bucks laying out at the butcher shops or in the back of trucks its pretty easy to see why there aren't any larger deer and why the population is in the state it is.

I spent yesterday thinking about this on the drive home. Truck after truck, and there was not one single deer that would have scored over 100". Out of hundreds. The vast majority were spike bucks or does, and the occasional basket rack 6 or 8. One decent buck. That isn't the fault of the DNR. Nobody from the DNR pulled the trigger on those deer. I'd bet my last dollar that a lot of those people can be found in a bar complaining about the deer herd over the next few weeks.

It seems like there are two distinctly different goals people have when it comes to deer hunting.

1) Shoot a deer to eat. Your goal is to have a lot of deer and generous limits.

2) Shoot a deer to put on the wall. You'd like to have big deer.

Your goal makes no difference to me, personally. But a lot of people need to look within themselves and decide what their goal is. If you want to eat a bunch of deer, you probably shouldn't be shooting does for a few years. And if you want a 180" monster for over the fireplace, think twice about killing a spike for you, and a second one for Hunter Hank, just because it walked by.

Deer herd management starts with you. The DNR can help shape things in the big picture, but you have control over your trigger. Decide what you or your hunting party's goal is, and makes sure your actions are in line with that goal. Then worry about the DNR. It'll be much more effective than just sitting around complaining about what the DNR is or is not doing.

[yakfisher]

Also, we are a small group as it stands and there are other factors outside of hunting that can also play a role.

Ask a car owner if they would rather hit a 100 pound spike buck or a 250 pound 12 pointer with their car. Ask their insurance company which they would rather have their client hit. Ask a farmer if they would rather have a larger herd of deer eating their corn and beans or a few. And ask if they would rather be feeding a 250 pound deer with their corn or a 100 pound yearling.

Actually Field and Stream had a great article in Oct on the politics of deer. Surprisingly insurance is the least of the worries. It is more likely Big Ag is the one influencing deer regulations to the detriment of the people's desires. Money talks and fewer deer walk!

If you want change speak up. It's farm bill time and we hunters may be about to lose again.

[jiggin9]

As an avid MN sportsman who enjoys deer and deer hunting but has no education or experience in big game and/or land management, my view on this complex problem has lead me to believe that our state has mismanaged the deer herd on a large scale. Before I get pushed off my soap box this is just my opinion and you can take it for its worth. MN lacks in large buck production for several reasons. One reason that gets me is that our state passes out buck tags to any person willing to pay the $30 resident fee or $165 out of state like they are going out of style. That doesnt happen in ND, SD, WI or IA. This huge number of tags and hunters applies immense pressure to the buck population. Is it wrong to look into a buck lottery? Is it right to have an antlerless lottery in some places? Does MN do away with party hunting? Would either of these help our deer population? I dont know the answers but I feel our state is not managed to be at it's full potential for both large bucks as well as overall deer numbers.

Now I know there are people that just enjoy the meat or will call me a trophy hunter and what not, but we cant all have our cake and eat it too. I am all for youth, new hunters and the older hunters to harvest what they see but outside of that we need to make a change. I enjoy seeing deer and I enjoy seeing large bucks even more. How do we solve the issue(s)? These are just my thoughts from what I've seen this year and in years past. I'll get off my soap box now.

[leechlake]

I'm going to attach a response from a post in another thread. I will leave the posters name out and yes I do know he is fully legal in Minnesota via party hunting. This doesn't help our deer numbers:

Here it is:

Well I could have shot one at 4:55 on Saturday night, a fawn. (woods)

Sunday night I shot a doe my daughter missed first at about 4:45. (field)

Monday night I shot a buck at 5:20ish, about 2 minutes of legal left. (woods, near field)

Tuesday night I shot a buck at 4:55. (woods)

So I'm going to go with evenings & I'm not going to go hunting tonight...

[sticknstring]

Yep, cross-tagging bucks certainly doesn't do the herd any favors. You can't do it in the SE. I'd like to see the rest of the state follow suit. If you shoot it, you tag it.

[MUSKY18]

MN does NOT have:

exceptional deer, duck, pheasant, turkey, grouse, bear hunting; or exceptional bass, walleye, trout, salmon, panfish, muskie fishing.

MN does have:

good opportunities for all the above sports. Some things, like muskie fishing, are arguably exceptionally good in our state.

I'm just happy that I can, with just decent effort, probably shoot a buck every year, while enjoying most of the other mentioned games as well.

Maybe I'm just content because I haven't experienced anything better. And I don't watch too many hunting shows. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

Minnesota is the PREMIER Musky destination in the US. More and more musky fishermen are flocking to MN because of the size limits on our lakes imposed by DNR. WIth the exception of Canada and Lake Ontario, there is no place to fish musky's like Minnesota. Most of the lakes are 48" limit and more are moving to 50" limits.

I read a post earlier in another topic that said a hunting party went 9 for 5. So basically, everyone in that party shot 2 deer. There's a good dent in the herd in that area. I am totally anti party hunting and think that each person should only be allowed to take the amount of deer that THEIR license allows. Just my feelings.

Another question.....how many non residents actually come to MN to deer hunt? I am sure the numbers pale in comparison to WI, IA, IL, SD, and even ND. There just isn't the draw for people to come here to chase that dream buck. Basically it means the residents are doing the majority of the killing and managing of the herd. Everyone is never going to agree that it should be one way or another and the only way to ever even things out would be for the DNR to do it. Move the season back to after the rut, when bucks are not running around the woods crazy. Go back to the shorter seasons. Eliminate party hunting. It worked in the past.

[TruthWalleyes]

I'm having a great season as usual.

Haven't pulled the trigger yet - which is quite normal for me.

Seen close to 20 deer in the stand saturday, 4 Sunday, 2 Monday.

Hills still stink to climb in SE MN.

You guys gripe too much about deer hunting and then the next sencence say how much you love it...Blah Blah Blah.

My wise old man used to tell me all the time: "IT IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT"

There's a lot of truth to that.

[CaptainMusky]

I think there are definitely trophy deer opportunities out there for guys who really do their homework and put in their time. Not everywhere is it going to be possible to produce nice bucks year in and year out.

For me, its the enjoyment of getting my kids into the sport. Seeing my sons eyes get the size of beach balls when a buck was less than 20 yards from us making a scrape (before shooting hours) and then snort and take off when he discovered us is priceless.

[leechlake]

Truth

if you went out sturgeon fishing for seven days and saw one fish you'd probably be happy with the "it is what you make of it" line? While I respect and agree with that perspective I also note you've seen deer and that's all most of us are also asking. That's kind of my point. You saw 20 deer Saturday and then 5.

[Scott K]

I have seen a lot of deer this year bow hunting. I have not seen deer everytime out. I have many different places, from private, to state lands that I hunt. I will say this, the only deer I have seen while I was on state land, was in a field, on private land. But on private land, I have seen deer pretty much everytime I went out. Sometimes 1 deer, sometimes 20. I have seen a few big bucks, but not one with a good shot. I have passed on many does, and smaller bucks, but I didnt pass on them because of wanting to only shoot a big buck. I passed because it was to early in the season, and I didnt want to stop hunting yet. If a big deer walked my path, whether that be, a doe, a spike, or a 12 pointer, I would have let one fly. As the season comes to a close, I will be less inclined to let them mid sized deer walk.

I personally enjoy the hunt, and being out in nature. To be honest, I would be rather sad to shoot a big buck opening day of bow hunting, because then I would be done for the year already. I would rather hunt all season, and take a 130 pound spike in late December, then take a decent 10 pointer on opening day. Honestly, the boneless meat on its head means very little to me. I have had a few decent sized bucks within 40 yards this season, but I convinced myself, it wasnt a good shot, even though, I now I could have easily done it.

Now my goal is to have meat in the freezer, not to look at antlers, so I am happy with just getting a deer, or two during the season. I dont need antlers to make my hunt successful.

[Getanet]

Did you go hunting in MN this year Leech? If so, did you see anything?

I know you mentioned South Dakota and the amount of deer you see when you're there. To put this in perspective, SD has a total population of 833K. MN sells more than 500K licenses. The pressure isn't nearly the same. Pretty tough to compare the two.

[Alagnak]

I don't own land here. After moving to MN 10 years ago from NW WI I tried hunting up by Grand Rapids for a few years, I've tried taking my boat down the St. Croix to get away from the crowds, hunted a few years by St. Cloud, etc. I've yet to PULL THE TRIGGER! But I did just hit my 2nd metro deer with a vehicle last Wed. LOL

I'm no expert at hunting and no I don't put a ton of time so 'I get what I put into it' but come on. That $190 WI tag at least lets me see and shoot deer just about anytime I want to go back home and do it.

[Scott K]

Pete, its $165

But you are correct, there are a lot more deer in NW Wisconsin. But there is also a lot of wooded land, with many bogs, swamps, and small lakes. All mixed in with a few corn fields here and there. Pretty much prime for deer.

[leechlake]

I saw a few deer bowhunting in October and last weekend saw zippo and my three nephews also saw zero deer. Leaving for Sodak tomorrow afternoon and very fired up, as always. $335 license, happy to pay it. I wonder how they can charge that much???

[deerminator]

I've actually seen hunting shows where they hunted in both Southeast and Northern Minnesota. I agree, using them or outfitters for that matter to represent what it could be like for the average hunter is way off. I don't watch that Crush show or whatever it is but I did see Lee Lakosky (spel?) talking on a hunting network once about pressure and how when they first moved to their farm, they spooked deer regularly and had a harder time hunting it. But over the years, the deer became accustomed to their movements (or pressure) and he instituted policies like "staying out of the timber" so it became a sanctuary for them. Fast forward many years and they can sit in a treestand overlooking a food plot and see lots of deer. Many outfitters are able to do the same thing. That's not reality for most people. Even if they owned a slice of their own land. He also made a good comment along the lines of "you've got 92 outfitters in Buffalo County, WI. We've got maybe 92 hunters total in our county."

[InTheNorthwoods]

Pete, its $165

But you are correct, there are a lot more deer in NW Wisconsin. But there is also a lot of wooded land, with many bogs, swamps, and small lakes. All mixed in with a few corn fields here and there. Pretty much prime for deer.

What you described sounds a lot like Minnesota. I think that is the point of the posts here. Minnesota has the habitat, but doesn't seem to have the deer. What is done different here than in surrounding states.

My belief is that the DNR looks at it and says, how do we maximize revenue, while pleasing the masses - we sell as many licenses as we can get away with, and we have the least restrictions so that people can hopefully fill as many of the tags they buy and not be upset with the system in place. In the process, they placate insurance companies and farmers (and blame their lobby if deer hunters get upset with the management style) when numbers take a plunge due to harsh winters/over harvest/predators.

There is little done in the way of actually managing deer number in specific areas. How can you manage specific areas when you allow anyone to buy tags for any area they want?

[TruthWalleyes]

Truth

if you went out sturgeon fishing for seven days and saw one fish you'd probably be happy with the "it is what you make of it" line? While I respect and agree with that perspective I also note you've seen deer and that's all most of us are also asking. That's kind of my point. You saw 20 deer Saturday and then 5.

The redution from 20 to 5 was not because they were shot BTW, I hunted different land, and no one was hunting in that area, plus, not one of those bucks were APR legal to shoot. I'm also heading to the opposite side of the state this coming weekend away from the area i was this past weekend to fill a doe tag in a lottery area. I'll be back where i was this weekend during ML season after everyone has shot all the 1.5year olds boo hoo LOL. Makes no difference to me. I'll gladly fill both tags with does and never look back. I like to shoot big does - and that takes patience as well>or luck, which i have very little of

My buddy hunted the same section with me saturday - he saw ZERO deer. He also brought banannas, and i would bet he was sleeping. He saw ZERO on sunday too lol. Monday he saw more than me. He didn't seem disappointed either as he is out to enjoy the fun with friends and family and he'll also put in enought time by the end of the year that he'll see plenty.

As far as sturgeon fishing goes....You have no idea how patient i am in the boat WAAAAY more patience fishing for flatheads - Man my hours per flathead is terrible!!! But the last two years i've also caught one over 50# There's more than 50 hours of fishing for each flat i've caught. Ellusive they are...for some anyway

Even a blind squirrel can find a nut if he looks long enough. That's the way i look at hunting and fishing.

At any rate - IT IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT is something i use all the time. STOP and think about what YOU can do to make it more enjoyable for YOU.

[PurpleFloyd]

Minnesota is the PREMIER Musky destination in the US. More and more musky fishermen are flocking to MN because of the size limits on our lakes imposed by DNR. WIth the exception of Canada and Lake Ontario, there is no place to fish musky's like Minnesota. Most of the lakes are 48" limit and more are moving to 50" limits.

I read a post earlier in another topic that said a hunting party went 9 for 5. So basically, everyone in that party shot 2 deer. There's a good dent in the herd in that area. I am totally anti party hunting and think that each person should only be allowed to take the amount of deer that THEIR license allows. Just my feelings.

Another question.....how many non residents actually come to MN to deer hunt? I am sure the numbers pale in comparison to WI, IA, IL, SD, and even ND. There just isn't the draw for people to come here to chase that dream buck. Basically it means the residents are doing the majority of the killing and managing of the herd. Everyone is never going to agree that it should be one way or another and the only way to ever even things out would be for the DNR to do it. Move the season back to after the rut, when bucks are not running around the woods crazy. Go back to the shorter seasons. Eliminate party hunting. It worked in the past.

There are a few guys in the Hayward,Wi area that may have a differing opinion on the subject of the premiere location thing.

Interestingly I cut my teeth fishing for Muskies around the Chippewa Flowage and the Namekagon waters back in the late 90's before all of the publicity caught on and it was a fun time to get into it but starting in the 90's and continuing on it was taken over by (for a lack of a better term) a bunch of #&@*'s in decked out boats that invade the lake and act like everyone owes them a favor and need to get out of their way as they pass by throwing the big plugs. Now, obviously that isn't how every Musky fisherman was but it certainly is enough of them and they are pretty much similar to deal with as the APR crowd. If that is the future of deer hunting it will be a sad day.

[sticknstring]

I'm having a great season as usual.

Haven't pulled the trigger yet - which is quite normal for me.

Seen close to 20 deer in the stand saturday, 4 Sunday, 2 Monday.

Hills still stink to climb in SE MN.

You guys gripe too much about deer hunting and then the next sencence say how much you love it...Blah Blah Blah.

My wise old man used to tell me all the time: "IT IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT"

There's a lot of truth to that.

Says the guy from the SE that that's been hunting under regulation for 4 years... kind of the point of this thread.

[PurpleFloyd]

It sounds like the best solution might be to compromise and

1- move the season out of the rut. Make it the first weekend in October before Pheasant opener so my season isn't interrupted and there is lots of corn for the big deer to hide in.

2- Shorten the season ( for everyone) to a 4 day season whether it is Rifle, Shotgun, Crossbow, ML or bow. Have it at the same time

3-get rid of illuminated sights, scopes, rifled barrels on shotguns, sabots,ban trail cams,no elevated, heated blinds etc and just plain even the playing field so that there are as few advantages as possible.

4-no drives. only ground blinds or stalking in the open.

5-no cross tagging except youth can take one for their dad or grandfather.

5- open it to you can take anything of any size in those 4 days. No doe lottery, no APR.

[jiggin9]

I agree that there are opportunities to harvest large bucks across our entire state. All of the pics on here, stories I've heard and the few bucks I've personally harvested can attest to that statement. No, I don't expect to see one every year much less shoot one but to me this all comes down to greed on behalf of our states management system. I have no idea what the actual number of out of state licenses sold in MN is. I agree that there probably isn't a lot of people flocking to our state for a trophy buck. In fact, that number is probably very minor to where the real issue lies. How many tags (resident & non) are sold each year in Mn? Correct me if I'm wrong but are there hunter tag limits in any zone in our state? I know there are antlerless tag limits but I've never heard of anyone denied a buck tag in any section. Like I previosly stated, I dont have a background in wildlife management but I feel that if we make some changes that MN can sustain a healthier deer population. Maybe take a look at what our neighbor states are doing and try to make a management plan thats better for MN.

My intentions are not to bash the DNR, deer hunting or anything else related to deer. I grew up deer hunting and enjoy the tradition that is so deeply enriched throughout this state. I hunt because I enjoy the challenge as well as the meat. I dont look down on anyone for the deer they decide to shoot. No one should. I helped my wife shoot her first deer in '07 and I was as excited for her as I was when I shot my first deer as well as any of deer I've shot in the past.

Good luck to everyone hunting the remainder of this season.

[TruthWalleyes]

Says the guy from the SE that that's been hunting under regulation for 4 years... kind of the point of this thread.

5 or 6 yrs actually.

I haven't shot a buck down there in that time.

Haven't seen an improvement in antler size either.

Lots of 1.5's and some 2.5's running around though.

Do i sound disappointed that i haven't shot a buck in the APR zone in that time

Had a lot of fun down there hunting though!

[PurpleFloyd]

I agree that there are opportunities to harvest large bucks across our entire state. All of the pics on here, stories I've heard and the few bucks I've personally harvested can attest to that statement. No, I don't expect to see one every year much less shoot one but to me this all comes down to greed on behalf of our states management system. I have no idea what the actual number of out of state licenses sold in MN is. I agree that there probably isn't a lot of people flocking to our state for a trophy buck. In fact, that number is probably very minor to where the real issue lies. How many tags (resident & non) are sold each year in Mn? Correct me if I'm wrong but are there hunter tag limits in any zone in our state? I know there are antlerless tag limits but I've never heard of anyone denied a buck tag in any section. Like I previosly stated, I dont have a background in wildlife management but I feel that if we make some changes that MN can sustain a healthier deer population. Maybe take a look at what our neighbor states are doing and try to make a management plan thats better for MN.

My intentions are not to bash the DNR, deer hunting or anything else related to deer. I grew up deer hunting and enjoy the tradition that is so deeply enriched throughout this state. I hunt because I enjoy the challenge as well as the meat. I dont look down on anyone for the deer they decide to shoot. No one should. I helped my wife shoot her first deer in '07 and I was as excited for her as I was when I shot my first deer as well as any of deer I've shot in the past.

Good luck to everyone hunting the remainder of this season.

So you are proposing that we limit the number of Minnesota hunters who can harvest a deer so that we can attract more people from out of state to come in and harvest our deer?

As a point of reference when I lived in Wisconsin 20 some years ago I could take up to 6 deer in the Ashland/Iron River area if I bought all the different licenses, bonus tags etc. There was no APR thing up there and everyone cross tagged and party hunted while making drives and stuff like that. During my time hunting there in the Chequamegon national forest area and the time since with my in laws still hunting up there every year they have never shot deer that scored higher than the deer that we harvest down here and actually in the past 2 years my son and I have harvested 2 bucks bigger that anyone up there has gotten in the 20+ years I have known them. The added bonus is our corn fed deer have bigger bodies and taste better than those pine needle eating things up there.

[DRAGFOOT]

My guess is the DNR is happy with the deer population as it is. They dont want to take heat from land owners about their fields or gardens being eaten or from people complaining about the amount hit on the road. Also FYI, the DNR doesnt care what you think.

There is big bucks to be had out there, but they are not Gimme deer, they take a lot of time. As soon as I started putting more time and effort into my hunting it was amazing how many bigger deer I started seeing. I do not judge anyone for what kind of deer they choose to take and I dont expect to be judged either. 4 years ago I shot a wall hanger after I started putting more effort into it like I stated above, it was a great expierence and I hope to do it again. Well after passing up small ones for 4 years, I started to get hungry for venison again so I decided I would take a small buck if I had the chance. I am not able to hunt my old spot anymore and had no idea what to expect of this new spot so I shot a ugly basket 6 pointer at 7:45 am saturday. I will set up this new spot moving forward and will probably pass on small ones for a few years again but it seems to me, you get out what you put in to it. All the people that I know that shoot big bucks spend a lot of time in the woods prior to hunting and I understand that not everyone is able to do that but that seems to me in my expierence to be what it takes. I am not complaining about the deer population. If there is no deer where you hunt, then try like the rest of us and find a different spot.

[HunterLee]

The biggest thing that the DNR could do without causing a complete up roar is to go back to the way things were. In our area we used to have decent size and numbers. We still have ok numbers and can fill tags easily but that is not what its all about. Size has been lacking since allowing rifles, and muzzleloading.

Go back to shotgun state wide or at least in my area, pick either regular or muzzleloader and go back to the 2 and 4 day season.

Nothing good has came from a nine day season here. A guy could at least work with other property owners and in turn gave more land for people to hunt, no so with one season

I live and hunt a fairly wide open area and with shotguns you at least had to have some common sense to get close to a deer. Think about it say you own a quarter section, well with a little thought and a well placed box you should be able to kill almost any deer walking on your property.

2nd- Once again if you own a chunk of land and say have one decent buck living on it and you really want to get it, you have 3 months of bow season, 9 days of rifle during the rut when he is not overly smart, 3 weekends of muzzleloader and that buck needs to eat or die, so the odds are in your favor that even the smartest buck will make one or two mistakes that will have him end up in your truck, that is not to mention the chance of up to 3 other property owners doing the same thing.

The odds of a good buck becoming great are not that great, and then throw in cars, poachers, wolves or coyotes and a 4.5 yr old deer much have been living underground.

I do hunt for horns but also for meat, but I enjoy hunting way to much to end my season with a fork or a young buck.