Black gun ban?

[Tom7227]

The information contained in the entire article is interesting and should be reviewed by anyone interested in gun shows and the issue of private sales. The article has links to the source materials so it is possible to tell where the information and 'facts' came from.

It is a hard concept to consider when discussing gun control, but the use of data and facts helps weed out some of the emotional B. as in B and S. as in S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States

[jparrucci]

So it sounds like there is not a gun show loophole at all. I do not want private citizens to have to jump through those hoops to sell a firearm to a friend or family member. Again, IF you want to regulate sales.between citizens, it better be free and same day.

[Tom7227]

The "gun show loophole" is first of all a "label" that folks apply to sales between private parties in or near gun shows. Those sales like any private party sale, are not required to go through an FFL and thus are not subject to a NICS check. The Wikipedia article that I put a link to details a variety of studies which show links between gun show sales, regulated and unregulated, where the weapon ends up being used in a crime.

There are suggestions and proposals that all private sales be subject to a NICS check which I believe would require that an FFL be involved. I believe most FFL's would require payment of some fee to cover their time. I also believe that one of the issues is that the FFL would then have to add each gun to his inventory books. This may create some paperwork issues for the FFL and may also create some liabilities, but I am not sure about that.

[Big Dave2]

It is a hard concept to consider when discussing gun control, but the use of data and facts helps weed out some of the emotional B. as in B and S. as in S.

When talking about the so-called "gun show loop hole" it would also be helpful to know exactly how many guns purchased from a gun show are used in the commission of a crime each year. I'm betting that number is very low.

[Tom7227]

When talking about the so-called "gun show loop hole" it would also be helpful to know exactly how many guns purchased from a gun show are used in the commission of a crime each year. I'm betting that number is very low.

Collection of data regarding private sales is impossible to collect. By definition there is no data which shows a gun that was bought at a private sale. As for the guns purchased from FFL's that were later found to be either a crime gun or one that was purchased illegally, go to the link I posted above and read the details and if you are so inclined check out the reports via the footnotes.

[RumRiverRat]

The gun show loop hole refers to private sales by non-FFL holders. The actual myth is that everyone knows what they're talking about when the discussion turns to gun control.

There is no loop hole.

Private Face to Face transactions can take place anywhere you want not just at Beef Jerky and Fake WWII Nazi memorabilia shows masquerading as gun shows.

As someone who has conducted close to 200 Face to Face gun transactions in the last 13 years I can assure you that I have never sold a gun to a prohibited person. I have copies of the individual's DL, Carry Permit/Permit to Purchase and a signed Bill of Sale.

I have purchased more guns via private sale than I have by filling out a 4473.

[Tom7227]

Rum,

I can assure you that while you have done more than required by the law in conducting a private sale but you have not ruled out the possibility of selling to a prohibited person. A person's status with respect to the right to possess a firearm is not proven by their producing a DL, or a carry permit. Their status can most accurately be determined by access to court case data and police arrest records. That information is altered hundreds of times a day across Minnesota for hundreds of people,and I suspect hundreds of thousands of times across the country. Running a NICS check will give you relatively timely data from across the country.

If you chose to expand your inquiry to help determine if someone is prohibited you can at least access court record data for Minnesota here -

http://www.mncourts.gov/default.aspx?page=1927

[Gordie]

You could sew up all these loop holes and it will not make a difference when a bad guy wants a gun

[fishersofmen]

You could sew up all these loop holes and it will not make a difference when a bad guy wants a gun

Exactly, why can't these fools called politicians see the obvious like the majority of us can..........a hidden agenda?

This last shooting took place because of irresponsible and border line reckless parenting not some "loop hole". But for some reason everyone is talking about loop holes, you can't make it up!

[Gordie]

Its also a joke that they call these guns Assult rifles ,when in fact every gun is a assult rifle, and if a pepper shacker is used to kill someone now that item has become an assult weapon.

What happens to all the ruger 10/22's that have been converted to look like a black gun?

The Shooter in the latest shooting (Spangler, the ambush shooter in New York) had some other person buy a gun for him. How does this law stop that?

IT WILL NOT.

[Moose-Hunter]

Just so ya know...

On the left... A CLIP. On the right... A MAGAZINE.

Confusing the two, honestly make you look quite uninformed. Kind of like that "barrel shroud" and "shoulder thing that goes up" comments.

Next... Can you tell me the difference in these two rifles?

If you said, "one has a scope"... You're RIGHT!! Both are chambered the same. Both operate the same. And before you talk of ammo capacity, BOTH have the ability to hold as few as five and as many as you could dream of with the proper modification. I even have a bolt action .22 that holds 20+ rounds. You could have said color, but that would have been racist!!

Banning certain firearms is useless since criminals by definition will continue to break the law. Banning high capacity MAGAZINES will do nothing except further regulate lawful sport shooters. The whole debate is a tactical face palm at best since more laws WILL NOT STOP ANYTHING!!!

[Fishinguy40]

But the "Black Gun" in your picture is not "AS" dangerous because it doesn't have collapsible stock

[Moose-Hunter]

But the "Black Gun" in your picture is not "AS" dangerous because it doesn't have collapsible stock

You don't mean that ominous looking "shoulder thing that goes up"? The HORROR!!!

(Bwahahaha... I crack myself up... )

[simple1]

Shoulder things that go up are scary, speak of them no more!

[Ray1]

Moose- Can you clean some of your pms out. I would like to use your post.

Very well explained.

[Moose-Hunter]

Moose- Can you clean some of your pms out. I would like to use your post.

Very well explained.

Done! Fire away! I mean... Go ahead and contact me if you'd like.

[nobody05]

So what's the deal with the permit to purchase? I had somebody try to tell me the other day that you need a permit to purchase an Ar-15. Myself and 5 other buddies of mine have all bought them without permit to purchase over the course of 3 years. So obiously you dont need one.

[LMITOUT]

Yes, you do need a "permit to purchase" card to buy an AR-15 unless it is a private party transaction and the seller doesn't want to go through the transfer process.

[nobody05]

Well the two dealers that i bought from never even asked. Just filled out the regular form. And out the door I was. There must be a loop hole or something that he is getting around it being I'm sure he knows what he is doing otherwise you could be knee deep in [PoorWordUsage] really quick.

[nonteepical]

a permit to purchase is for handguns wich came about when the gov't decided to try to outlaw handguns.

[LMITOUT]

It's also required for AR's in MN.

[LMITOUT]

Well the two dealers that i bought from never even asked. Just filled out the regular form. And out the door I was. There must be a loop hole or something that he is getting around it being I'm sure he knows what he is doing otherwise you could be knee deep in [PoorWordUsage] really quick.

I'm thinking he better start asking for the card...

I didn't know the card was required either until a gun dealer I had been talking to said I needed one. It didn't sound right because I always thought it was only needed for handguns (it even says so on the little card) and an AR is a rifle, so I started calling around to a few shops including Cabelas and they all said it's required, per MN state law.

[Huntin&Fishin]

Options for Obtaining a Permit to Purchase/Transfer

Option 1

Fill out a the Minnesota Uniform Firearm Application/Receipt Permit to Purchase/Transfer. Submit the application to your local police chief, or if your municipality does not have a police department, to your county's sheriff. The law enforcement agency will conduct a series of background-related checks to assure you meet eligibility requirements established in state law.

Once those checks are complete, a one-year permit to purchase a handgun in Minnesota will be issued. If you are applying for a permit to transfer the law enforcement agency must notify you of its status within seven days of receipt.

If you are selling a handgun and the buyer has not obtained a permit to purchase, you must notify the local police department or sheriff's office of the potential transaction. Once the law enforcement agency receives the transfer/purchase agreement, the agency has five days to determine the potential buyer's eligibility to possess a handgun.

Option 2

If you want to make a one-time purchase of a handgun from a dealer and you do not have a permit to purchase, you may apply directly at the gun shop where you will purchase the handgun. The gun shop will require you to complete a consent form that allows them to conduct a name and date-of-birth background check to determine your eligibility to purchase a gun. The gun shops are entitled to charge a fee for this service.

This is straight from Bureau of Criminal HSOforum, I only see it states "handguns", not long guns which the tatical rifles would fall under. Dont quote me on this but from my understanding it seems only need permit to purchase for handguns

[LMITOUT]

This is straight from Bureau of Criminal HSOforum, I only see it states "handguns", not long guns which the tatical rifles would fall under. Dont quote me on this but from my understanding it seems only need permit to purchase for handguns

Nope, need a card for AR's too.

624.7131 TRANSFEREE PERMIT; PENALTY.

Subdivision 1.Information. Any person may apply for a transferee permit by providing the following information in writing to the chief of police of an organized full time police department of the municipality in which the person resides or to the county sheriff if there is no such local chief of police:

(1) the name, residence, telephone number, and driver's license number or nonqualification certificate number, if any, of the proposed transferee;

(2) the sex, date of birth, height, weight, and color of eyes, and distinguishing physical characteristics, if any, of the proposed transferee;

(3) a statement that the proposed transferee authorizes the release to the local police authority of commitment information about the proposed transferee maintained by the commissioner of human services, to the extent that the information relates to the proposed transferee's eligibility to possess a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon under section 624.713, subdivision 1; and

(4) a statement by the proposed transferee that the proposed transferee is not prohibited by section 624.713 from possessing a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon.

[Fishinguy40]

I purchased an AR lower receiver on line in November so that I could build my own. Had to have it shipped to an FFL. When it arrived at the house of the guy that did the transfer I had to fill out some paperwork and then he made a quick phone call to complete the background check. I'm not sure if this paperwork is intended as a permit to purchase or not.

Also, I believe an AR lower receiver can be used to build not just a long gun but a pistol.