Muzzle-loader shot placement

[CANOPY SAM]

Over several seasons of muzzle-loader hunting I've only had this happen once, and I don't want it to happen again. Last season, on the last day of the season, sitting outside, in sub zero temps, I punched a hole in a large doe at about 45 yards. I know for certain it was a solid shot directly thru the vitals. When the smoke cleared I expected to see the animal laying there, but it was gone. There was plenty of snow, so I wasn't alarmed, and I quickly took up her trail confident I'd find blood quickly, and subsequently find my last deer of the season piled up within a few yards.

Long story short, I followed her trail for perhaps 150 yards, deep into a red willow swamp, thru 2 ft. of snow, and found not one drop of blood. Her trail eventually blended into many deer trails, and after several hours of looking I had to give up. I was nothing short of dejected. I hit this deer perfectly in the vitals, standing mostly broadside, but slightly quartering away. The tell-tale sound of a softball hitting a brick wall at 200 miles per hour was audible.

I have many friends that hunt with muzzle-loader, and a few that have had this same issue happen multiple times. Nearly point blank perfect shots with absolutely no blood trail. Earlier in the season I dropped a nice buck that did the same thing, although he only went about 70 yards before he piled up. But he also left not one drop of blood in the snow during his retreat, but when I rolled him over he was laying in a large pool of blood, having been hit directly thru the heart.

Over the years I've talked to dozens of hunters that have lost deer this way, that they are certain they hit hard. I can only imagine how many deer are lost statewide due to this same problem.

This has probably been a discussion on this thread numerous times, so please forgive me if I'm bringing up an old topic, but with muzzy season right around the corner, I'd like to proactively head this issue off at the pass...so to speak.

I've been seriously considering just "spineing" my deer, instead of shooting for the vitals. A well placed neck shot will drop them in their tracks...end of discussion, but this can be a tricky shot depending on the animal's stance.

Do any of you have any kind of recommendations, or experience with correcting this issue? Should I change my bullets, or change my shot placement?

[fr0sty]

I use 250 grain t/c shokwaves in my ml. Huge, spraying blood trail on both sides of the deer.

If you don't want to put it through the heart lung, a shot in the scapula will drop the deer right there.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

Do any of you have any kind of recommendations, or experience with correcting this issue? Should I change my bullets, or change my shot placement?

I would stick with the vital shot. What I've done in the past is experiment with some different bullets and loads by shooting into a block of wood, then recovering the bullets. It's really surprising how much difference there is between different types of bullets. There's also a difference in rifles - especially in muzzleloaders..

[Archerysniper]

Shoot for the vitals and maybe look into a diffrent bullet.

I have killed a lot of them with my Omega and a 250 grain Hornady Sts. I have never had a problem with no blood trails and most are down either on the spot or within 50 yards.

Are you shooting powerbelts buy chance? Those are the only bullet I have heard bad things about.

[K_Josh87]

The only deer i have shot at with my muzzy I had this issue... I trailed her for at least a quarter + mile... tiny tiny TINY far and few between blood specks... and had a guy run a dog on the trail the following morning with a mile and a half trailed and no dear...

I was using powerbelts in a 45 cal... I Am thinking of hunting with this again this year, so I am interested in this as well... as maybe I didn't screw up as bad as I thought I did and maybe the bullets are bad... I figured I clipped him in a leg or such... but its possible that bullet hit the shoulder blade and blew up, or caught a twig and fragmented... I do not know...

Also would be curious an suggestions on bullets to try, I was planning on cleaning my muzzy up and shooting it this week in case I get the itch...

[candiru]

I have also had a bad experience with a Powerbelt. It was a 295 grain being pushed with 100 grains of powder at about 60 yds, so you can't say it was going too fast.

I recovered the deer but the bullet just disintegrated with no exit. I had shot deer prior where they performed well. I am done with them.

[swamptiger]

I've been muzzleloader hunting for elk in Colorado several times, and you can't use sabots in Colorado, so the choice of bullets gets limited.

I've shot one elk with a 385 gr. Powerbelt over about 90 grains of powder with good results. This was in a 1 in 32" twist inline barrel.

Never used any sabots because most of my shooting with MLs has been out west, although I have shot a couple of whitetails here with a ML using a T/C Maxi-hunter bullet.

Overall, with various rifles, I've had good luck with T/C Maxi-hunters in 275 and 350 grain weights over about 90 to 100 grains of loose powder.

My experience is that there's a lot of factors that come into play with muzzleloaders - you just have to find the right combination of bullet and powder for your rifle. What I've seen generally is a lot of guys try to use too light of bullet and too much powder. Heavier bullets will give you better knockdown and penetration, and of course your range will be limited with a heavier bullet.

[Whoaru99]

While I've only taken one deer with muzzleloader (one shot, one kill), the 250gr Barnes Expander MZ piled her up real good. Don't remember if it was 90 or 100gr behind it.

[monstermoose78]

I use powerbelts in 50 cal 245 grain for weights and 3 50 grain triple 7 pellets and my bullet preformed perfectly. It was on stuck on the skin on the exit side of the deer it used all of its energy inside of the deer. I have heard of people not liking powerbelts but I have shot 2 deer so far and they worked very well both times for me

[Whoaru99]

I've not used Powerbelts so I can't relate personal experience. That said, my choice not to use them was driven by what I read as inconsistent performance.

[Moose-Hunter]

Stick with a vitals shot, but as mentioned, maybe look into a different projectile. I'm shooting a T/C Encore 209 x 50 and she has found a new love!! The Speer Deep Curl 240 grain handgun bullet. It's a bonded, jacketed hollow point. I use the .429 diameter with the matching sabot. My starting load was (2) 50 grain 777 pellets. Simply a laser beam!! And dialed in even better with a switch to loose powder! Best accuracy was 3 grains shy of "max" for my gun.

Minute of deer accuracy out to 200 from a rest. However, I'd limit my shots on live targets to around 100 and less. I'll be out at the range shortly with the chrono which should prove VERY interesting!

I've "tried them all" as they say. This round is by far, the most accurate to date with my T/C Encore!

[NAMASafetyDirector]

T/C Encore w/ 250gr. Shockwaves and 150 gr. powder. Out of the 8 deer i've taken with it to this point I've never had one make it past 40 yards post shot. I would have to say though if your looking for a shot to quote "put em down" I would try for the high shoulder shot. Might not be a direct kill shot but at least it will cut your tracking down! As mentioned above, I have had more than one occasion of not getting a pass through shot. Typically find the bullet lodged in the cape on the opposite side when this has happened. Lots of good info out there on the net so try to find a good reputable source with thier findings on loads and experience and go from there. Started with my gun from a reccomended load from the well known Larry Weisun and found it to work well so never had a reason to switch.

[Boar]

Well in my case earlier of bullet tumble due to to much powder with too light of a bullet. I was using 150 with a 200 gr bullet.speed is not everything. if ur bullet is tumbling, could be the reason fro lost deer. even if yur bullet is under the skin on the other side the bullet has done its job to the vitals. if ur tumbling an hit bone, good luck. spend time at the range. if u insist on 150 frains of powder use a heavier bullet 250 min. find out what ur gun is doing. one should have no problem killing a deer with 2 pellets an a 200 to 250 grain bullet at 50 yards.

[swamptiger]

I'd say also don't be afraid to sling a little heavier slug out there. To put it in perspective, a 12 ga. slug weighs 1 ounce to 1 1/2 ounces. One ounce is 437.5 grains.

[CANOPY SAM]

Thanks everyone for the good information.

I've seen several times where a vital shot animal had the fragmented bullet lodged in the cape on the "exit" side of the body. The bullet had indeed done it's job, with profound trauma to the vital organs, but in most cases this had resulted in an easily tracked animal via a prominent blood trail. It's this seemingly rare animal that doesn't leave a blood trail that I'm most concerned about.

I am, and always have been, shooting Powerbelt .50 caliber 245 grain hollow-point bullets, Copper Series. I project these with 3 triple seven 50 grain equivalent pellets. Is this an adequate load? Like I originally said, I've shot and recovered numerous deer, and made some pretty long shots with very good accuracy.

I'd imagine most, if not all muzzle-loader projectiles begin to tumble after losing a given amount of energy. But I'd think with enough inertia they all spin pretty well out to 100 yds?

I'm just concerned about losing another "dead" deer.

Is it possible that taking the final shot so late in the season is part of the problem? Perhaps the animal itself has laid on so much fat, and such a thick, heavy winter cape, that blood escaping the entry wound is nominal?

I was just baffled by the loss of that big doe last year. It still doesn't sit well with me. I hate the idea of killing a big game animal only to lose it. I teach my children to take as much time is as needed to carefully make a clean kill shot, and if the shot doesn't present itself, don't take it. Two of my children made perfect heart shots on deer this year. Two bullets = two deer in the freezer.

[swamptiger]

Happen to have some ballistics available for the Powerbelt bullets...

With 150 grains of pellets:

.50 cal 245 gr. HP: Velocity @ 100 yds. - 1681

Energy @ 100 yds. - 1533

Drop @ 200 yds - -6.1" (zeroed @ 150 yds.)

.50 cal 348 gr. HP: Velocity @ 100 yds. - 1491

Energy @ 100 yds. - 1718

Drop @ 200 yds. - 7.7" (zeroed @ 150 yds.)

The Aerotips will boost the energy a little, and probably give a little better penetration than the HPs. Also slightly better trajectory.

[leechlake]

I was going to type what I thought but was unsure if I was correct I copied the following from the net which is the gist of my opinion:

"With the velocity limitations of muzzleloaders there is not a lot of secondary wound channel caused by hydrostatic shock. The new generation of highly engineered expanding muzzleloader bullets on the market has changed the dynamics of this somewhat, but muzzleloaders are still low velocity hunting firearms and dramatic kills are not the norm."

I think that is why you have little blood loss sometimes rather than laid on fat/fur. You don't get the shock like a rifle would produce aka less blood loss at or near where you took the shot. I believe with an arrow or a muzzleloader you are looking at a more similar thing that kills the deer vs a rifle that is that the animal has to bleed to death from the bullet or the broad head. In my thoughts a rifle bullet goes in the deer and the shock or "explosion" can destroy organs or cause bleeding even though the projectile didn't actually touch the organ or vein or artery.

The above is both my opinion and I believe some factual things of muzzy bullets, broad heads, a high velocity rifle bullet. Just trying to throw some thoughts out there and I will fully admit I could be incorrect on facts, aka don't jump my post pointing out all my errors...

[TruthWalleyes]

Shoot a lead ball.....SPLAT!

Never had a problem killing deer with my muzzy. 150 grains of powder. I think last two years i shot the 300 gram platnum. Vitals.

[CANOPY SAM]

swamptiger.

So based on your ballistic information the load I'm using should be more than adequate when compared to other options, correct? Could gain some knockdown power with a different bullet type (heavier bullet)?

Forgive me, but what are Aerotips? Are these the plastic tipped hollow-points? Honestly, I haven't done a lot of homework on different ballistic options. I've always had good success with what I'm using...with the exception of an occasional hang-fire. They suck, but I think I'm pretty much to blame for those = breach plug not quite clean enough.

[swamptiger]

The Aerotips are a polymer tipped version of the same bullet - not a hollow point. They should give you more penetration in the same weight, but less expansion.

Personally, I would go with a heavier bullet with the same charge. You could compromise between the 245 gr. and 348 gr., and go with the 295 gr. in the aerotip.. If you don't get wild shots with the 245 gr. bullet and 150 gr. charge, the same charge should work fine with a 295 gr. bullet. Of course you will need to re-sight your rifle.

You will definately gain knockdown power with a heavier bullet.

[Musky Buck]

I use a 370 grain maxiball and the 3 bucks I've taken with it have been really messed up, I also use original blackpowder and none were hit exactly where I wanted but none of them staggered off more than 25 yards before going down. The shock value of a 370 grain chunk of lead, man.

[cavalierowner]

I use 295 gr hollowpoint Powerbelts in my traditional ML over 80 gr of loose powder. I finally got my first deer last year. All I could see was the middle of the deer, 50 yards away, so I shot high, trying to take out the spine rather than take a chance on a gut shot. Big doe went about 30 yards and that was it. I hit about 2" below the spine, with a 1/2" hole in and 1/2" hole out. There was just a few drops of blood here and there. Turns out I hit a main artery and the body cavity was full of blood. I will be interested in seeing what a Powerbelt will do if it hits bone. Hopefully in a couple weeks!

[flipper]

When I bought my first muzzleloader the clerk sold me powerbelts. I hit a rib on a nice doe with a 295 grain PB at 85 yards and two 50 grain 777 pellets. The bullet fragmented badly and I was lucky to recover the doe. I haven't shot a powerbelt since but if I did it would be one of the heavier ones with a moderate powder charge. In my opinion there are many superior projectiles out there, in fact most anything is superior to the powerbelt.

[lakevet]

Think more like a bow hunter for how you recover animals. Depend on blood loss a lot more. Seen lack of blood trail many times with a wide variety of projectiles. Our experience is best results with .54 round lead ball for blood trail. Have seen a deer double lunged with a 30-06 in snow at 200 yards. Bullet entered between ribs. Passed thru air filled lungs and out between ribs on other side. Dead deer at end of 250 yards of tracking with not a drop of blood the entire way. Usually see at least fine mist at impact site or hair, but there was none (very windy day). Can happen with any rifle occasionally. Definitely more with a muzzleloader. Have not seen projectile failures. Have seen fatally shot deer running but no blood for 200-300 yards. Especially if hit higher in chest. If past that likely bad shot/wounded. Our rule of thumb is if it goes over 1/4 mile w/o bedding, normal track patterns and no blood then let it go. If lose trail then comb area/ drive area multiple times.

Saw doe come out of a drive into snow covered open field. Relative shot at it with a .54

power belt. It never flinched or gave any indication of being hit. Ran up over hill out of sight. Checked trail . No hair, no blood. Followed trail good 200 yards, nothing. Thought better check over the hill another 150 yards of deep snow. Trudged to top of hill. Just over the crest lay a very large dead doe . Blood all over. Hit high in chest, and just took a while to bleed out. Bullet did pass thru, large holes.

Definitely can be difficult to follow up in high deer population areas with a lot of fresh tracks. Or poor snow cover.

Be willing to let it sit a while.

Could be projectile failure.

Also could be a bad hit. Never know for sure you hit where you aimed unless you are able to examine the deer.

Usually aim for chest. Wider margin of error, least damage to meat. Usually don't go far with the .54 hole, but don't bank on blood trail. Will do neck/head shots, but need to be close.

Good job working towards 100% clean kills.

lakevet

[Archerysniper]

Just get rid of your power belts and shoot something diffrent.