Poachers

[HellP]

So my brother and I grabbed our ultra/lites yesterday and went on a ice out tour of the local lakes.Prior was open 2 boats, Bush was open so then we popped in to Hyland lake to fish of the dock.Drove down to the landing and to our surprise there was a Blue bass boat with 2 younger guys throwing Large spinnerbaits,when they saw us they dropped thier rods sat down.Then a green pickup pulled in next to us a guy jumped out with 5 bait casters tied up with crankbait,buzzing frog,senko,spinnerbait.We asked him what kind of crappies hit that stuff,he went on the defence saying big crappies and trying to convince us.We showed him what crappie rods look like, took a pic of his truck and boat told him we called T.I.P and went to fish the shore.They were gone in sixty seconds.I know we through this every year and it becomes a hot topic on F.M.But REALLY the day the ice goes out!2 months early come on guys!

[bassfshin24]

Bugs me that people think they can do what they want. If they have the itch to get out bass fishin go hit pool 2 of the Miss or something.

[Craigums]

Meh, Crappies are aggressive this time of year. I'd throw crankbaits and spinnerbaits for them.

[mrklean]

I think the correct term is fish harassment, unless they keep them then there poaching

[JP Z]

I believe Mr. K is correct, it is "just" fish harrassment, but still bad nonetheless.

[Stick in Mud]

Yeah, it's that time of year. I've seen it already on the river, too. Just keep that TIP line handy and call them in when you see it.

[hockeybc69]

Hopefully we will see an earlier C/R bass season in not too long!

Then we can all join in the fun!

[goblueM]

Hopefully we will see an earlier C/R bass season in not too long!

Then we can all join in the fun!

there's no real biological need for closing bass season, even in the northern areas. Mostly its just remaining to be traditional bass opener because that's the way its been for so long. I'd be clamoring for a C&R season if I was still in MN, I know that much.

[CrowWingBasser]

Hmmm! So if your release bass prior to season it is harrasment and if you keep them it is poaching??!!?? As simple as that?? If I remember right bass season was always set a little late to protect them during the spawn. In late spawning years when it was legal I have seen in our northern lakes dozens of boats with in 10' -15' of each other in spawning bays trying to take fish... they had no respect for the resource and whether or not you believe it or not - a lot of the folks are not catch and release. In addition to this of course they drive the fish off the beds.... Fast forward to your open season year round with C&R during the normal off season? What would you call pushing bass off the beds - harrasment or poaching? What would you call temporary destruction of spawning areas - harrasment or poaching? For you folks that want a year round season - be careful what you wish for!!! I don't think any of us wants to destroy the resource.

[TonkaBass]

Its a talk law anyways. Not saying I fish early, but some laws are WAY past due. I would pay an extra $100 for an "early bass C&R season" to my license. The goose hunters get one...

[hockeybc69]

Crowwingbasser,

You need to check with the biological experts on the topic of early season C/R.... Ya cant be going with "gut feel" on this stuff.

Smalliehawgin,,,,

You out there???????

[TurnUpTheFishing]

Its a talk law anyways. Not saying I fish early, but some laws are WAY past due. I would pay an extra $100 for an "early bass C&R season" to my license. The goose hunters get one...

Yeah but they are trying to control goose numbers. We dont want to cull the bass population.

This gets brought up every year and every year I have the same opinion. If a C&R season was put in place then yes I would fish 'em but Im not demanding one either. There are other fish to chase, or places to go to get my fix in.

I personally don't see how having an open season on spawning fish or even just a C&R season has no impact on the population.

[goblueM]

Crowwingbasser,

You need to check with the biological experts on the topic of early season C/R.... Ya cant be going with "gut feel" on this stuff.

Smalliehawgin,,,,

You out there???????

I'm not smalliehawgin, but I do have some background in fisheries biology/management.

From what I understand, there is quite a bit of research indicating that stressors from C&R angling of nesting black basses results in lower basal activity than pre-angling levels, which may affect nest-guarding and reproductive success. Additionally, predation of eggs and fry have been observed in a handful of studies where they angled bass off their nests.

However, I am not aware of any studies that have produced evidence of reduced recruitment to age-1 fish as a result of pre-spawn and during-spawn angling. Additionally, studies haven't shown much correlation between number of spawning adult bass and the number of Age-1 bass the next year, which would suggest that the factors driving overall population levels are survival of older fish, rather than hatching as many fry as possible. This isn't terribly surprising, given the fecundity of black basses is high enough to sustain populations with a small amount of spawning fish, and since harvest pressure on them is pretty low.

An informative read

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/Bass_on_Beds_Final.pdf

According to Indiana, Minnesota is the only state with a statewide ban on fishing for bass.

Come to think of it, it'd be some high-class research if the DNR were to monitor bass population numbers and size structure for a few well-known bass lakes in different regions of the state following a closed season for bass, and through the transition to an open C&R season. Especially when combined with nest-predation and stress studies on those same lakes

[HellP]

give them a chance to grow

[jalberg]

I'm pretty sure I saw the same guys in the blue bass boat on a different lake. It was 3 guys though. The one on the troll had Pete Maina hair. They had Duckett Micro Magic baitcasters and covered up the baits with their hands as I came by. After I passed them I saw one of them had a crankbait tied on. They were definitely bass fishing. I didn't see them catch anything, but it still drives me crazy. If they would have been chasing panfish they probably would have done well. I caught and released over 100 crappies.

[hockeybc69]

Nice video hellp.... Its got treehugger feel start to finish. Give me the scientific data and not propaganda to support the reason to not change the current seasonal structure.

How many nests does it take to provide enough eggs/fry to successfully maintain a population of bass in an average lake?

Anyone know? Or is gut feel driving the opinion that we need to protect bass with the current season structure for bass in MN?

Anyone want to comment on the reason the northern part of the state opens earlier than the southern part of MN for bass? Gaurantee every year the bass spawn is in full swing during the open season up there, and I have yet to hear anyone crying on forums such as this that we need to protect those poor bass up there.

[goblueM]

Hockey, read the link i posted above, Indiana has some math on bass spawning and lake size. It's really hard to generalize anything on number of spawners per lake, since habitat, predation, survival, and other factors are variable between lakes, between years, etc

edit:

"Estimates of the density (number per

acre) of 8-inch and larger bass in Indiana

natural lakes average 24 per acre. Of these,

nearly half (47%) are 12 inches or longer.

Assuming these figures include a 50:50 sex

ratio, a typical Indiana natural lake likely

has at least six sexually-mature female bass

per acre. Even if half of these female bass

spawn in a given year, average annual egg

production would be nearly 100,000 eggs

per acre. That represents one million eggs in

a 10-acre lake, 10 million eggs in a 100-acre

lake, and 100 million eggs in a 1,000-acre

lake. Furthermore, bass populations with as

few as six adults per acre have been shown

to produce excessive numbers of bass

fingerlings."

(bolding mine)

they go on to talk about electrofishing results an densities in some states, in cluding Minnesota and Wisconsin ... but you have to be careful with those since field procedures differ greatly among agencies, on top of environmental differences

[RK]

Hiya -

Hockey69 - the nothern bass opener is when it is because it's been that way for years. When it was set, nobody really cared about bass up there one way or another, and bass wasn't a management priority for the DNR on that area. Still isn't. Nothing more to it than simple tradition, and, as you rightly point out, nobody's pushing for it to change.

The fact that angling - even catch and release angling - has an affect on the spawning success of largemouth and smallmouth bass isn't much in dispute. It does. It affects mobility, nest and fry guarding behavior, and can lead directly to higher levels of nest or brood abandonment, especially when combined with nest predation. What isn't always clear is how that affects or doesn't affect adult populations. Most studies that look at spawning success do acknowledge that. But you have to note they don't say it doesn't, just that the scope of the research conducted didn't address it. Researchers are rightly cautions about speculating too broadly on that sort of thing.

From Factors Affecting the Vulnerability to Angling of Nesting Male Largemouth and Smallmouth Bass (emphasis mine)

"Male largemouth and smallmouth bass were quite vulnerable to angling while guarding their nests, 70% of nesting male smallmouth bass and 54% of nesting male largemouth bass being hooked during the experimental angling trials. The level of aggression shown by nesting males of both species towards the brood predator model was significantly influenced by the quantity of eggs in his nest. This relationship was true regardless of male size, although larger males of both species typically received a greater quantity of eggs during a reproductive attempt. Furthermore, vulnerability to angling correlated positively with the quantity of eggs in a male’s nest. Thus, the males that had the largest broods and the greatest potential to contribute to annual recruitment were the most likely to be caught by anglers, indicating that angling for nesting bass during the brood-guarding period has the potential to negatively impact bass populations."

Some relevant research on the subject:

The Effect of Catch-and-Release Angling on the Parental Care Behavior of Male Smallmouth Bass; Suski, Svec, et al; Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 132:210–218, 2003

Exploring Population-Level Effects of Fishery Closures during Spawning: An Example Using Largemouth Bass; Gwinn and Allen; Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 139:626–634, 2010

Locomotory Impairment of Nesting Male Largemouth Bass Following Catch-and-Release Angling;Cooke, Philipp, et al; North American Journal of Fisheries Management 20:968–977, 2000

Factors Affecting the Vulnerability to Angling of Nesting Male Largemouth and Smallmouth Bass; Suski and Philipp; Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 133:1100–1106, 2004

Effects of Catch-and-Release Angling on Nesting Male Smallmouth Bass; Kieffer, Kubacki et al; Transactions of the American Fisheries Society, Transactions of the American Fisheries Society Vol. 124, Iss. 1, 2011

Predicting the Effects of Angling for Nesting Male Smallmouth Bass on Production of Age-0 Fish with an Individual-Based Model; Ridgeway and Schuter; North American Journal of Fisheries Management Volume 17, Issue 2, 1997

There are some unknowns in all this, specifically the relationship between survival to age 1 and adult population levels. Some of the research does suggest strongly that spawning success or lack of it can have greater implications for populations that are less productive (lower numbers and slower growth rates) typically found at northern latitudes compared to high productivity populations further south.

Personally, I won't fish for bass on a nest. I prefer they stay there and make more little bass. Besides, with smallmouths at least, there are more fish NOT spawning than spawning. Personally, as much as I'd like to fish bass before June, I'm not sure I want to see an early season here. There seems to be enough research to indicate a high vulnerability during spawn to affect nesting success, and with low productivity waters here in the North, I just don't know that it's worth the potential risk, especially on high use waters, and especially when it comes to smallmouth.

The comments in the paper quoted above are pretty interesting. I've always thought nesting smallies are far easier to catch than nesting largemouths, and this seems to quantify that. I was talking to a friend of mine who used to live here in MN but now lives on Sam Rayburn about the differences between southern and northern bass, and he was adamant that northern strain largemouths are generally easier to catch than southern bass, ESPECIALLY Florida strain, and he said that's especially true with bedding fish.

Anyhow - take a look at some of the research. As you can see it's a pretty complex picture that has to take in not only the science, but the social aspects of the question. Certainly no simple answer one way or another.

Cheers,

RK

[smallie_hawgin]

RK and GoBluem... Nice job citing the research. I also have looked at the dynamics and research on survival of nesting fish after capture etc.. There is evidence to suggest that time out of water and displacement from nests does have an impact. BUT, it is also important to note that there is high variability in habitat quality, predation, and young of year survival among many of the systems that have been studied. Some of our own researchers in MN observing spawning success have documented recruitment on years when no visible nests were noted on a given lake (Central MN).

Generally speaking in MN we have an abundance of bass. Both largemouth and smallmouth. And the regular monitoring work the DNR does has shown that range expansion has occurred and is likely still occurring. Within central MN, we have consistent year class production on lakes and rivers with adequate habitat and water quality. In short, there is no shortage of bass, nor is there any evidence that catch and release angling could potentially change that. On the contrary, MNDNR has conducted annual electrofishing on several lakes in the state (statewide database approximately 12 lakes since 1990) for many years during spring where males (and females) were removed, measured, scales samples taken etc, then returned.... No evidence of year class failure was observed under nearly the most harmful conditions(other than all out harvest. Environmental factors such as flows, water levels, temperatures and severe weather have had greater impact on any level of year class production that any angling or electrofishing (My own observations from the research on bass I have done in rivers and data reviewed from lakes).

It is a sticky subject and one with many opinions. One could argue that (as was suggested previously in the thread) there are idiots that choose to not obey the current law already. And, that this practice has been going on for years. That probably lends itself well to suggest that there is currently impact, yet, we still have thriving bass populations throughout most of the state. We know that centrarchids have high nesting success rates overall. Why wouldn't we simplify the law and offer up some additional angling opportunity, rather than saying well "if it aint broke don't fix it?"

If a C&R season was offered during March-June15 where there was some actual biological benefit to the seasonal structure, would that be a consideration? OR perhaps an option to preserve bass fisheries that are more sensitive to angling disturbances from that early season "harassment" as was suggested. I would argue we may need to consider allowing a simple instant catch and release season to help our angling community and actually prevent harvest of bass in their potentially most vulnerable time (on the beds).

Just my thoughts... Having been in this field since '86

In any case, it may show up as an option if enough bass anglers are truly interested in protecting the resource (by allowing less harvest during potentially vulnerable periods).

[RK]

Thanks for the info Smallie_hawgin. Very interesting stuff. So sounds like an early C&R period if it's instant C&R (no transport, no reducing to possession as it's currently defined) might be ok in some cases? If the evidence is there saying it won't have a negative affect on the fishery, bring it on... I don't like walleye fishing that much anyhow

One side question - you mentioned continued expansion of bass. Any theories on that? I know in the area my cabin is at (Detroit Lakes area) some lakes that have had historically marginal smallmouth populations (based on not only personal observation but survey data) have developed into good to very good smallmouth fisheries over the past 8-10 years. In some cases it's been at least partly by design (spawning habitat improvements) but in some cases it seems there are other factors besides? Is it climate change (higher survival to Y1 as some Ontario research suggests), are we seeing the benefits of the closed season in the fall? (Personally, I think that's at least part of it. Used to see a lot of stringer shots of smallies in the paper in the fall). Wondering if you have any thoughts there.

Again, thanks for the info.

Regardless though - as it is now, and to the original post...I call TIP on 3 or 4 guys every spring. Drives me nuts. Muskie fishermen "pike fishing" is just as bad if not worse.

[goblueM]

Rob,

interesting that you note those small lakes around Detroit Lakes going from marginal smallie fisheries to good ones.

My family has a cabin in northern Michigan, and growing up it was an excellent largemouth fishery. Caught a smallmouth maybe once a year or every other year. They'd always been in the lake in low numbers, but didn't get that big or numerous.

In the 1990s there was an invasive crayfish boom on the lake (I'm assuming rusty crayfish, I didn't know or care at the time), and within 3-4 years it became a phenomenal smallmouth lake, and suddenly you couldn't buy a largemouth for at least 6 or 8 years.

Now, 12-15 years later, the crayfish have all but died out for whatever reason, and it seems about 50-50 LMB/SMB

There weren't any regulation changes or stocking of the lake during this entire time period, leading me to suspect it was almost entirely due to the crayfish. So I'm wondering if invasive crayfish don't play a big role in expanding smallmouth ranges in Minnesota, as big a leap as it is, going from anecdotal observation in Michigan in the 90s to postulating a theory for MN today.

[DTro]

Very cool to poke my head in here and see some thoughtful posts, thanks for taking the time to put together those good posts!

The way I see it is that people just want to get out and fish. Should we discourage folks from doing what they love and spending time in the outdoors. Should people feel like criminals and that they have to hide their crankbaits when they are out to have a few smiles and release everything anyways? I guess I don't have an answer to those questions, but it sure seems to me that a harvest season and a non harvest season makes a lot of sense.

[RK]

GoBlueM -

In the case of the lakes I'm fishing, there are very few crayfish at all. In fact, on the lake my cabin is on, growing up there (family has had the place since the late 60s) we used to catch crayfish, you'd see their burrows under rocks in the shallows, and you'd find dead ones washed up on the beach all the time. They were the ultimate weapon in fights with my older sister - nothing made he run faster than a dead, stinky crayfish.

But since then, I hadn't seen one in years - I mean, had not seen a one, until my son found a dead one last summer. Most of the smallmouth lakes I fish, the smallies are fish eaters, and they're looking up most of the time. Fish something on the bottom at certain times of year, and you won't catch much. Very rarely do they cough up anything but fish parts.

Been meaning to ask the DNR guys in the area if they know anything about the crayfish and whether they've noticed any decline in their numbers. Have no idea if they even pay attention to that stuff.

When my son found the dead crayfish, first thing he did, without ANY coaching from dad, was chase his older sister with it.

Proud of the little fella

Cheers,

RK

[st.crioxfishin]

Interesting read on the expansion stuff. I'm noticing the same thing on the lake my family has a cabin on. I've fished it since I was in diapers and had never caught a smallmouth there until last year. Landed about a half dozen and saw many fingerlings along the bank each time I was up there - will be interesting to see what happens to the lake in the next 5-10 years...

[Stick in Mud]

This thread is one reason I love this site....for all the people who spout off with opinions that are either unsupported by research and/or contradictory to the research, there are also people who know much more than I do about the subject who are willing to share their knowledge in ways that allow me to 1) read and evaluate the evidence for myself, while 2) remaining civil and respectful. Thanks to all for the references to articles that I can look up if I so choose, articles that will also have a reference page that I can ALSO look up if I so choose. Should I be paying you fellas tuition?