illegal baiting

[Big Dave2]

Same with shooting deer from helicopters, or from the middle of a highway while sitting in your truck, or chasing them with atv's or snowmobiles until they are too tired to run anymore, and then shooting them. A line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm glad in Minnesota they drew it at baiting.

There are many who would like to draw the line at hunting.

[DaveT]

There are many who would like to draw the line at hunting.

Exactly.

How does baiting deer paint us in the eyes of the antis? How does it paint us in the eyes of the average non hunter? It makes us look like lazy, ignorant slobs who can't shoot a deer without training them to come eat at a certain place at a certain time. Food plots are not the same as baiting, and the only people who claim they are, are the ones who have never tried to disc, lime, fertilize, plant seed, pray for rain, mow, spray roundup, and incur all of the costs, time, labor and disappointment that food plotting actually requires.

/thread

[eyeguy 54]

I don't think antis give a rats behind about baiting or food plots. They want you to have a hunting accident cuz you are killing an animal. Thier minds are mixed up. A far as non hunters go they probably don't even know about the subject.

[Basseyes]

The biggest difference with a food plot and baiting is the square footage of the actual area being baited vs the size of the food plot. A limited, very condensed area, is usually what most are dealing with, when baiting or feeding deer. Most baited or feeding areas are at most a 10'X10' piece of dirt or a small food trough. That's 100 square feet at most. A small 1 acre food plot is 120'X120'. Roughly 44,000 sq. ft.. That's a substantial difference when the DNR looks at it. With CWD, deer rubbing noses and swapping saliva, in that close of a proximity, it's not good. I understand looking at food plots no different than bait piles. Both are food. But it's like comparing a compound bow, to a recurve, to a center fire rifle, to a shotgun slug, to buck shot, to a cross bow. All are tools used to shoot deer. But they are vastly different in the nature of how and when they are used or should be allowed. Just because a bow, is a tool used to cull deer, inside city limits, doesn't mean a 300 win mag, should get equal treatment to a bow. They are similar in their goal. But very different in their uses and functionality. There's a lot of different traditions and habits when looking at the sociology, political and ethical ideals of baiting, feeding and food plots in the way a department manages and deals with regulating such issues. Look at a hypothetical situation. A group that has become very successful at food plots and has started to really develop their property for wildlife. Critters of all kinds are utilizing the habitat created. Then baiting gets legalized. Now with food plots and good habitat they are also allowed, to not only feed deer outside of deer seasons, they are also allowed to hunt over it. They buy multiple feeders, with timers and use them during late summer through out all the deer seasons, through winter and into spring. Feeding deer with an unlimited budget and knowledge, of how and when to do it, to the height of its efficiency, along with their food plots. I doubt the majority of average deer hunters, myself included, understands what the scenario could do to "natural deer patterns". I doubt the average person, who thinks we should legalize baiting, because there is no difference between food plots and baiting, has any idea of what will happen if we legalize it. We'd have bait in the woods from mid September to December 31st. 3 1/2 months of bait piles in the woods, by X number of deer hunters.

Baiting and feeding. Should we make it illegal to feed deer? Or should we legalize baiting? I understand the thought process. But there is a huge difference between feeding deer and watching them out your window vs holding on to a high power rifle, while watching a pile of bait, with the intent to kill one. I can totally understand the idea of making it illegal to feed deer. But then again, the legality nightmare of bird feeders, comes into play.

Some questions;

1. Do you really think baiting should be legalized?

2. Should food plots be made illegal?

3. If legal, would you bait?

4. If you would bait, how much would you bait and how often?

5. Would you be concerned about others out baiting you?

6. Should baiting be allowed on both public and private property?

7. Should there be a limit on how much you could bait if legal?

[Gordie]

How would you define "fair chase"? I have a feeling that you could ask 5 different people and get 5 different answers.

Would you say that using elevated stands are in the spirit of "fair chase"? How about high powered rifles? High powered scopes? Scent locker? Doe urine? Trail cameras? etc, etc.

If baiting violates the rules of "fair chase" should bear hunters feel bad about harvesting bear using the method? How about fishing? Isn't it unfair to lure a fish in using food?

I dont think baiting is ethical but thats Me.

I do hunt out of a evelvated stand a climber, I use a high powered rifle I use a scope thats for a ethical kill. I dont use all the sents and such I think its over rated along with the sent lock stuff.I play the wind I hunt on puplic land.

I dont have private land or the money to put in a food plot or hunt over a corn field. much less put a pile of corn on the ground or better yet some type of timed feeder that you can control and when it sounds the dinner bell the deer come runnning and then you look at your kid and say wait for the big one. I dont get it thats not hunting thats well you might as well put a a high fence.

As for bear hunting thats Apples to Oranges there are only a couple way to successfully hunt bears if you didnt bait for them you would need dogs and if you couldnt use either one of those you would really not see any bears shot during a so called bear season.

[Big Dave2]

Some questions;

1. Do you really think baiting should be legalized? YES

2. Should food plots be made illegal? NO

3. If legal, would you bait? Probably not because of the area that I hunt but wouldn't mind the option to do so.

4. If you would bait, how much would you bait and how often? Haven't really thought about it.

5. Would you be concerned about others out baiting you? NO

6. Should baiting be allowed on both public and private property? YES

7. Should there be a limit on how much you could bait if legal? I can't say I have an opinion on this but if limiting bait amounts would be all it would take to make it legal again, I would support that.

Again, The arguement that baiting spreads disease is dead in the water until all recreational feeding of deer is ended. Most everyone I know that has land that holds deer feed them. There are a lot of people all over the state feeding deer in small feeders or piles. If disease control were really the issue here, this practice would have been ended a long time ago but we both know that is not the real issue here.

[Big Dave2]

Exactly.

How does baiting deer paint us in the eyes of the antis? How does it paint us in the eyes of the average non hunter? It makes us look like lazy, ignorant slobs who can't shoot a deer without training them to come eat at a certain place at a certain time. Food plots are not the same as baiting, and the only people who claim they are, are the ones who have never tried to disc, lime, fertilize, plant seed, pray for rain, mow, spray roundup, and incur all of the costs, time, labor and disappointment that food plotting actually requires.

/thread

The anti's and non hunters would not even know this issue existed if we didn't raise awareness to it ourselves. The anti's don't care HOW we kill the animals only that we DO kill animals.

[Big Dave2]

I dont think baiting is ethical but thats Me.

I do hunt out of a evelvated stand a climber, I use a high powered rifle I use a scope thats for a ethical kill. I dont use all the sents and such I think its over rated along with the sent lock stuff.I play the wind I hunt on puplic land.

I dont have private land or the money to put in a food plot or hunt over a corn field. much less put a pile of corn on the ground or better yet some type of timed feeder that you can control and when it sounds the dinner bell the deer come runnning and then you look at your kid and say wait for the big one. I dont get it thats not hunting thats well you might as well put a a high fence.

As for bear hunting thats Apples to Oranges there are only a couple way to successfully hunt bears if you didnt bait for them you would need dogs and if you couldnt use either one of those you would really not see any bears shot during a so called bear season.

Gordie, with all due respect, my point is that fair chase can mean something different to everyone and it is a personal issue. It is great that you have drawn the line at baiting and that is your right. Others may draw the line at high powered rifles and only use muzzleloaders, others may draw the line at guns of any sort and only use archery equipment.

What is "ethical" and constitutes "fair chase" can be different in different people and we should respect that difference instead of trying to make everyone conform to what "I" like.

[Gordie]

Dave I understand that and I also respect your views but the bait thing just rubs me the wrong way as if you look to the southern states with feeders and fences is that what we want . I for one say NO I dont and dont say it cant happen cause it already has in other states.

Its all about hunting not about who's bait pile is bigger and thats what it will come to.

[Big Dave2]

Dave I understand that and I also respect your views but the bait thing just rubs me the wrong way as if you look to the southern states with feeders and fences is that what we want . I for one say NO I dont and dont say it cant happen cause it already has in other states.

Its all about hunting not about who's bait pile is bigger and thats what it will come to.

It has already come to be about who's private land is bigger or who's food plot is bigger so what's the difference?

BTW, baiting being legal or not legal will not have an effect on the increase of high fenced hunting areas. The quest for large antlers will however.

[arrow]

The true anti hunters will always despise us. We represent a minority of the population now, I believe less than 15% nationwide but I may be off a little on that. What we need to be respectful of are those who don't hunt but are not antihunters. These people are being lobbied everyday very hard by the anti crowd. Scenes of deer being shot over bait piles will not sit well with many of these people. Everytime someone does something stupid like shooting a trumpeter swan or a horse like this fall in Pine River we lose these people to the antis. Eventually if enough join there cause we will lose our rights or have them severely restricted like what you see in Europe.

The fact that a food plot involves a ton of work does not make it right. Thats similar in saying the crime took me a lot of planning and time so its not a crime. I understand the benefits of food plots I'm just being honest in saying they represent a form of legal baiting. How does a pumpkin patch growing in a one acre plot of land in the middle of northern minnesota woods vary from a pile of pumpkins dumped there. I realize it took a ton of work to get that soil prepared, fences built around the patch to keep away rabbits etc but its still there to attract deer to shoot.

Concentrating deer according to the DNR is what causes the spread of CWD etc. So many people feed deer recreationally now and sometime unintentionally with waste from bird feeders that ship sailed and can't be stopped. I'm against the baiting practice but again look at food plots as just a legal version of baiting though granted a very expensive one as you must procure land, till the soil, etc.

[Basseyes]

Big Dave 2 and Arrow,

I appreciate the dialog and think it's interesting. The lack of name calling on a post like this is refreshing.

I for one see a large difference between baiting and food plots. I have done both. Just curious if you have been involved with either one?

The main issue, as I read both your guys posts, is they are both food, meant to attract deer. I don't disagree with you there. I don't think currently, it is just a CWD issue for the DNR but it's going to be eventually. And agree with you that if it was, any feeding of deer would have been made illegal years ago. The legislature and the DNR has to think about Joe Blow general public and their desire to not only feed birds but also watch wildlife. That's a hard line to draw if you are feeding birds or feeding deer. It gets to be a slippery, regulatory slope.

The issue as I see it is this. Food plots are meant to attract, as well as feed wildlife. Bait piles, for hunting purposes, are meant to attract wildlife not feed them. The difference could be debated infinitely. From a regulations stand point the DNR is not going to make food plots illegal. There are way to many benefits for wildlife on the whole. Food plots not only supply food, un harvested they also supply cover for all kinds of birds, bugs, frogs and wildlife. A bait pile, used for hunting purposes, plain and simple does no such thing. It has one concentrated purpose. It does not benefit wildlife, in any other way, than to lure a deer into position for a shot. I doubt few, if any, would keep a supplemental feeding regiment going all winter, to feed deer, after baiting them for hunting purposes was over. A bait pile for bears is not meant to help supplement their dietary needs or give them access to a good, quality food source to help them survive a winter. It's main, ending objective is to lure them in and kill one over it.

I think there is a large division within the ranks of hunting. That will be the anti's biggest tool, divided and conquer. I don't disagree food plots seem a bit border line. But once we've gotten involved with them, the over all well being of herd health comes into play. Habitat, habitat, habitat! I like big racked bucks. We have pictures of them on our trail cameras. I have yet to see one or shoot one. I get more fun out of knowing we are helping deer out, than the actual harvesting of them. We spend way more time working the land than hunting. We have more fun without a gun in our hands than with one. And I see that as a growing trend among guys who get involved with habitat development and creating food plots.

I respect and actually appreciate differing opinions. But I do hope baiting does not get legalized.

[Basseyes]

Dave I understand that and I also respect your views but the bait thing just rubs me the wrong way as if you look to the southern states with feeders and fences is that what we want . I for one say NO I dont and dont say it cant happen cause it already has in other states.

Its all about hunting not about who's bait pile is bigger and thats what it will come to.

Great post! I can't imagine, with how competitive things are now, with hunting in MN and how big bait piles are currently, when they are illegal, how big and numerous would they get, if they were made legal?

[mnviking28]

So that is the axe you are grinding? Who has more private land? Is this supposed to be the "cheaper way out" for guys that didn't/can't buy their own property? The way to level the playing field for everyone is to allow someone to dump a truckload of sugar beets on a forest road? If it is your bait pile and someone else is sitting on it when you get there, does that mean they have to leave? Your comment about recreational feeding being still legal is correct. But, I believe that we are definitely headed down the road towards a ban, as we find more and more of these areas that it is fueling the spread of disease. Again, look at the areas that have had disease outbreaks in the last few years, it has been banned there.

[Big Dave2]

Great post! I can't imagine, with how competitive things are now, with hunting in MN and how big bait piles are currently, when they are illegal, how big and numerous would they get, if they were made legal?

Why does it matter how big and numerous they get? Boats keep getting bigger and more numerous, so are fish houses. I don't understand the logic?

[Big Dave2]

So that is the axe you are grinding? Who has more private land? Is this supposed to be the "cheaper way out" for guys that didn't/can't buy their own property? The way to level the playing field for everyone is to allow someone to dump a truckload of sugar beets on a forest road? If it is your bait pile and someone else is sitting on it when you get there, does that mean they have to leave? Your comment about recreational feeding being still legal is correct. But, I believe that we are definitely headed down the road towards a ban, as we find more and more of these areas that it is fueling the spread of disease. Again, look at the areas that have had disease outbreaks in the last few years, it has been banned there.

So, your position on this issue is that the main reason baiting should be illegal is because of the threat of spreading disease? You are saying that if there were no threat of disease spreading you would be in favor of allowing deer baiting?

[mnviking28]

No, not at all. My point was and still is, that the spread of disease is just another byproduct of baiting. In addition to all the ethical questions, it is another huge reason not to have it. Your biggest argument for allowing seems to be because people are allowed to recreationally feed. Again, the worst areas that concentrated feeders are seeing more restrictions and bans, so yes, I still see it as a huge problem. I have numerous friends that used to hunt that Grygla/Fourtown/Skime area and virtually every cabin in the area used to have a feeder...How did that work out? How many deer do you see up there now? And my question still stands-If you have a big bait pile on some forest road somewhere and you walk in to someone sitting on it, you are going to just walk away?

[Jim Uran]

Baiting vs Food plots argument...

What if the baiters were to spread there bait over a few acres of woods, would it be ok then? A couple of handfuls of corn here, a few apples over there, etc... What is the argument then? Besides the ethics argument.

Because lets be honest here, people don't plant food plots just to "feed" the wildlife

[monstermoose78]

Way to go leechbait!

[Big Dave2]

And my question still stands-If you have a big bait pile on some forest road somewhere and you walk in to someone sitting on it, you are going to just walk away?

Yes, if I put a pile of bait on public land and am not smart enough to be the first one out there and stay there, I would have no choice. It would be no different than putting up a stand on public land.

[Big Dave2]

Your biggest argument for allowing seems to be because people are allowed to recreationally feed.

No, My biggest argument is that nothing should be illegal just because "you" don't like it. There should be a good reason. I am just trying to get from you what that reason is and all I hear is is that baiting causes disease to spread and I don't buy it because deer feeding practices are still allowed.

What's the REAL reason?

[NoWiser]

What's the REAL reason?

The real reason is that the DNR, and the majority of hunters in Minnesota find it unethical, and think it will have a negative effect on our sport. I don't understand how hard it is to see that. If the majority of people wanted baiting to be legal, there would be a push to change the law. The ONLY place I have heard from hunters that want to be able to bait is on this site. When I talk to hunters in the field, they all feel the same as I do on the subject, which is that they should keep it as far from Minnesota as they can.

I just have to say this. Watch the VS Channel on a Saturday morning when they are "deer hunting". If you can honestly say that is what you want Minnesota to be like, well then you are no hunter. Simply someone who wants to kill an animal the easiest way possible, and then brag about it. (Not aiming those comments at you specifically, Big Dave, just people in general)

[Basseyes]

Baiting vs Food plots argument...

What if the baiters were to spread there bait over a few acres of woods, would it be ok then? A couple of handfuls of corn here, a few apples over there, etc... What is the argument then? Besides the ethics argument.

Because lets be honest here, people don't plant food plots just to "feed" the wildlife

I don't think I have ever read or heard a food plotter saying they are not trying to attract deer. It is a part of it. But not the only part. It also supplies cover through a food source and the vegetation from it. There is no vegetation from dumping harvested off the stock grains or fruit sources on the ground. And if the DNR was to deem that a legal option for sportsman I would respect that. But I do believe they should error on the side of caution when dealing with a situation that could deteriorate and escalate as fast as it has, being it is still illegal.

[Jim Uran]

But who's to say whether or not little baby raccoons and squirrels aren't benefiting from the little piles of corn laying in the woods? Just think of how many baby raccoons and squirrels we could help

In all honesty I think that the people who are mad at the notion are the ones that are putting their blood sweat and money into this massive food plot, but gets aced out by the guy down the road that dumps a pile of corn on a trail and shoots the big booner that was supposed to be feeding in that big green leafy food plot!

The ones that need to err on the side of caution are the deer

I'm seeing this from both sides, and it's hard not to see it this way tough. Thanks for keeping it respectful guys, that's what this is all about! A decent conversation that doesn't need to get too personal!

[Gordie]

No, My biggest argument is that nothing should be illegal just because "you" don't like it.

What's the REAL reason?

It not just that Its a YOU dont like it issue the numbers will prove that its a WE dont like it and I beklive that what the laws reflect.

Someone has alway got to disagree thats why we have laws in place .

like 60 day waterfowl season in

Minnesota I dont like it but thats what I have to abide by.

Why should it be legal becuase You like it!!!

The real reason Is"

: ITS NOT HUNTING Just because they puit out feeders down south shoulod we allow it hear ?