illegal baiting

[TonkaBass]

I hear you arrow. Good points you bring up. However it will never go back to the "good ole days" when people had no idea what bucks lived on their land. Technology has no doubt made fishing and hunting more productive. However, I still wouldnt go to the lake ice fishing without a flasher, just like I wouldnt go deer hunting without a my scope on my rifle. Im sure back in the really old days, some tribe saw the next tribe over was using bows and arrows instead of just throwing a spear. My point is that things do and will continue to evolve, you can either do it your way or follow the latest trends.

[eyeguy 54]

if ya don't enjoy it anymore, don't do it anymore. :>)

[mnviking28]

No amount of evolution in our sports are going to guarantee your success (unless you go to a game farm and shoot someone's livestock). Game cameras don't do it; food plots don't do it; rangefinders, scentlock, better optics, better guns, bows or camo won't do it either. Only time in the field will do it. You may think that food plots give guys with private land an unfair advantage, same with trail cameras. I am pretty fortunate to have access to a large tract of private land. It was partially a family farm, partially stuff we bought about 15 years ago. We have several food plots on it, the last couple of years we have had several trail cameras out. We have been doing the food plots for about 10 years or so. Number of what I would consider big bucks actually shot in a food plot-ZERO. Number of big bucks shot because of a trail camera photo-ZERO. I will admit, the plots have increased our deer numbers exponentially. But, these are small bucks and antlerless deer. The big boys feed after dark. Very few of our party hunts over food plots anymore as we have evolved to realize this. We now hunt the staging areas and travel corridors that these deer follow to get around our property. As was stated earlier, the food plots are just supplements to their regular browse and help the health of our entire herd. The cameras show you that they are there, they don't tie them up and hold them until you show up. There are some disturbing trends (canned hunts, poaching for antlers, antis, etc)in our sport and we, as sportspeople, have a lot of enemies out there. Food plots and trail cameras are not them.

[Quackaddict9]

are you 85 years old? Just kidding!

[monstermoose78]

+1 and i am only 33

[arrow]

I still enjoy hunting just not over food plots which is just another form of baiting. I have successfully harvested every big game animal in Minnesota without the aid of any of these high tech devices. Many of these hunts involved portaging into the BWCA and other wild areas of the state. I use a 35 year old bow and also an old rifle and typically camp. Successfully harvesting game is secondary to the experience. Yes I'm an older hunter but if I can do this in my 50's there is no reason you younger guys can't.

I think we need to be honest as Sportsman as to what we are doing here. We also need to start making decisions not just on what is legal but what is ethical. I realize ethics is tough to pin down but I think a lot of people are just not considering it at all or rationalizing around it.

The outdoor marketing of today has created some wonderful products but they have also created a great deal of shortcuts to being a hunter. It has also created a trophy culture which I find distasteful, just the phrase "its a shooter" makes me sick. Every animal harvested should be considered a trophy.

Finally I'm not telling anyone to go back to the days of throwing spears. What I'm saying is consider what your doing and whether its really ethical. Has the push to be successful, to bag that giant buck, clouded your judgement.

[Musky Buck]

Is your baitpile helping the deer make it through winters/springs no. Is a farm field or food plot helping thousands of animals and birds survive winter/spring yes. There's your difference. If it wasn't for farm fields and what's becoming more popular somewhat food plots kiss the deer goodbye in about 1/3 of our state or at a minimum with much less browse options some I guess would survive. Just think arrow when you portage the BWCA if legal you could weight that canoe down with corn, if you don't the next jon boats will be and they'll be loading there spots before season. So those in favor are calling for competitive baiting which we all know would start asap in Minnesota. My Wisc. relatives say watching a pile of food isn't really hunting so after a 1 year try at it they quit, but the neighboring properties are super competitive about it keeping the bins full 24/7. If legal I could decimate neighboring properties by baiting, dad and I own the cover, the field hunters, etc. might as well sell off and hope the Vikes are good. I might just bait those areas we don't bother hunting also to "hoard" as many deer away from you as possible especially if I connect opening day, just keep baiting through muzzy season. My neighbor sells all kinds of foodplot seed etc and has 1 10 acre field. Do you think I like seeing a lot of deer in January having something to forage on you bet, can baiting deer in November help out in the toughest of months um not likely. Guess what in the spring thaw the deer start digging up the field and it gets them to EZ time. You know what every food plot guy I've talked to the thing lacking in conversation is the words big bucks. None of them talk that way, they're hoping if the seed grows they'll have some animals to hunt come fall, there not oooh that rape seed man yearling 12 pointers runnin wild etc. thing that us non-plot guys know is we'll have some deer to hunt regardless if we plant a field or not, we're saving our $. I think they should've just called food plots field and leave it at that. If you don't have the cover for deer to bed in what's your field really doing ? Maybe draw some deer in likely at midnite. Lets simply put baiting up for a vote statewide and end the conversation for good.

[Musky Buck]

Let's see deer need daily.....cover,water,and food. It's why baiting is the final step to just opening the floodgates. We can't squabble about cover or water, but food we can. I could blow a grunt tube for decades and not get a deer, I could put out a deer decoy and it may scare as many as may actually investigate it, I can put out a salt block that never gets licked in November or December, I can cover my scent somewhat, I can use a scope and high powered artillery, I can sit,walk,stalk,rattle or whatever, apparently with a normal 38% success rate these gadgets maybe work for some, likely not that many in MN with it's pressure, simply with gun in hand we're going to get plenty of them having 478,000 of us after them. Let's see, a pile deep in the tamarac swamp or the neighbors picked cornfield that's 880 yards long by 440 yards wide, I can't shoot that far so guaranteeing in range is the pile of corn in my shooting lane. 28 years of field hunting and when I get my first deer in the neighbors corn I'll post a monster thread on here. My dad's last deer, 1991 and has hunted field alfalfa or corn since then. Man field hunting is such a slam dunk. They get so close to you at 800 yards it's a cakewalk especially in that last 5 minutes of light when you maybe see shadows yet your supposed to know for sure what your shooting at so if you want to hunt these fields give me a holler, you may connect once every 3 decades putting your deer kill at 2 or 3 for your lifetime. If we could bring the food to them now........we're bangin. You'll all be happy that's my final baiting post, I'm with the CO's baiting is unfair chase so you're gonna get all giddy in your sleep, your dream starts out can't wait to tunnel vision the cornpile in the morning hee hee hee then the dream shifts to reality hey the neighbor seems to be holding all the deer now with that gravity box full of pumpkins,apples,acorns,corn,black oil seed, then it's well I wasn't in favor of baiting in the first place and the song changes its tune. You want to bait hunt a state where you can, we got it right for once, they don't.

[eyeguy 54]

I just used an arrow, a piece of twine and a raspberry stem this year. Blue jeans and tennis shoes, no shirt. Forgot to shower and filled my tag. I am the most ethical hunter on earth. ;>) lol

[noodlerod]

AWESOME +1

[arrow]

Funny that pic on the one post looks like a brand new compound bow with all the high tech features. Bottom line is its a free country and we can all do whatever we wish within the guidelines of the law. However we are all capable of considering the choices we are making and how far we are deviating from what might be considered "fair chase". In my opinion the lust for a trophy has caused most hunters to either push that line or just plain obliterate it. I'm all for a respectful dialogue and will consider any and all educated and considerate responses.

[TonkaBass]

I agree with your points arrow. Although I dont really care when people call a deer a shooter, I do get annoyed when people name every deer they ever see. "Get ready, I think it's renegade!" "I never thought I would pump into excalibur again" Whatever floats your boat, but I think they could get away with just calling it how many points it is. (plus it is so nerdy sounding i wanna puke)

[Basseyes]

Here's my take and take it for what it's worth.

I have baited in WI and created food plots in MN. They are different but have the same intent. People are competitive by nature. Baiting is much easier to be competitive at than food plots. The baiting I did in WI was years ago. A friends brother-in-law wanted us to bait an area he had been baiting. Dumping the bags of corn made me feel dirty. We didn't hunt over it. The friend felt the same way I did about it, even with him being a native of WI. Deer stood in the woods, during legal shooting hours, in the firearms season. We just sat and watched as they waited for us to leave. I have never had a deer do that at a food plot when it knew I was there. Food plots suffer from the fact of diminishing returns. To do a food plot right requires tons of work, tons of time and a lot of money. With little guarantee that the moisture and weather will be ideal. There is no risk in baiting. With little limiting factors, other than how many bags of corn you can afford and get to the bait site. There is little to no effort to create better wildlife habitat, by chronic, illegal baiters in MN. Most who do food plots are also involved in creating better habitat for wildlife on the whole through a habitat strategy plan. With bedding cover, fawning areas, native browse, mineral licks and food plots all being considered for the benefit of all wildlife. Food plots are just a small percentage of that. Not just creating ideal situations, to harvest a deer as easily as possible, with the smallest square footage as possible. I have 5 kids who help with creating long, narrow, winding food plots on the edge of easy escape cover. We do this over the whole summer. It is also time they get to spend with their 78 year old grandpa, as well as the rest of the family. It gets them in touch with the earth and growing things. Teaches them about cultivating the soil, planting seed and watching the weather patterns to see if we are going to get enough rainfall for anything to grow. To say this younger generation is all bad is a terrible error in judgement and reflects poorly on the generation that taught them. There is no "instant gratification" in food plots. My kids have harvested bear over bait and deer over food plots. As well as waterfowl over decoys and upland game over dogs. I understand the line between baiting and food plots. I will not deny, one of the ending goals, with a food plot, is to attract a deer to them and hopefully get a shot at a deer during deer season. But it is not the single goal, as with a bait pile. I have no problem with baiting being legalized if it is registered like a bear bait site. And is replenished from mid summer till the middle of December to benefiting wildlife over a longer period of time, if it is to be compared to a food plot. But if it's one sole purpose is to dump tons of food in the woods, in a short period of time, with no other purpose, than to harvest a deer, it should remain illegal. Or make it legal only on public land with no limit on amounts. Deer urine, rattling, high powered rifles, scopes, compound bows, are pieces of equipment that will continue to improve. That is a given and I am glad for it. But a tool is still just a tool. To say we shouldn't be improving things is an interesting concept. We obviously believe that with habitat issues in MN. I am an avid waterfowl hunter. Older people are the ones who have taken a large dump on waterfowl habitat. So I have little respect for a generation that has destroyed waterfowl habitat on such a grand scale that only 5% or less remains. If anything I think this generation is already at least trying to take better care of the habitat that remains. If they legalized bait, most who want it would be the ones barking about the size of the bait piles in the woods. I will not argue that bait and food plots are food. But I will debate habitat issues and the difference between a good habitat strategy plan, that include food plots and an individuals right to dump piles of corn on public land to one up the guy 100 yards down the ridge or swamp. Can you imagine if you could legally hunt deer over bait and what Whitewater, Carlos or Mille Lacs WMA's would look like? No thanks, I'll pass.

[arrow]

I really enjoyed that post, well written and thought out. I have hunted in both Michigan and Wisconsin and I would hope we never give in to the baiting faction of the sport. I agree and have stated earlier that food plots have a more lasting effect for both game and non game animals. I think that is great that your grandkids have an interest in maintaining this land and improving on it. My experience with most but not all of the younger generation of hunters is they want the easiest way possible to fill their tags. I think part of the maturation of a hunter is you start to value the experience more than the kill. I disagree with the premise that the older generation of hunters has spoiled the land. Actually if we had not started duck stamps, BWCA, pheasant stamps, turkey stamps, Pheasants Forever, Pitman act, Wildlife Management areas, walk on areas, Ducks Unlimmited, Rock Mountain Elk Foundation, Minnesota Deer Hunters Association, etc. there would be very little left for the upcoming generation. Business interests including farmers, ranchers, loggers, miners, etc are motivated by profits and would have not been able to reign themselves in. Just look at western Minnesota for an example of what farming interest have done to our state. 100 year floods are now common, rivers flowing cesspools, and our wetlands are a mere remnant of what they were. If it were not for WMA's and waterfowl production areas there would be nothing left for wildlife. So for that I can say it is beneficial that local private property owners have come up with food plots which have become an oasis for wildlife. I hunted in one such area this fall and was astounded by the number of deer that were using it. I saw one deer in four days of hunting near Togo and in one morning saw over 30 deer on this 160 acre parcel. I look at this honestly though as what it is legal baiting.

[Big Dave2]

Great post Surface Tension

I just want to add something if you bait for deer is that considered fair chase? In my eyes NO

How would you define "fair chase"? I have a feeling that you could ask 5 different people and get 5 different answers.

Would you say that using elevated stands are in the spirit of "fair chase"? How about high powered rifles? High powered scopes? Scent locker? Doe urine? Trail cameras? etc, etc.

If baiting violates the rules of "fair chase" should bear hunters feel bad about harvesting bear using the method? How about fishing? Isn't it unfair to lure a fish in using food?

[Big Dave2]

Is your baitpile helping the deer make it through winters/springs no. Is a farm field or food plot helping thousands of animals and birds survive winter/spring yes. There's your difference.

What is there to keep a farmer or foot plot owner from plowing the plot under as soon as the season is over? What is to keep a farmer from leaving corn in the field until his hunting season is over and then harvesting it? Where is the difference now?

[InTheNorthwoods]

MuskyBuck"Is your baitpile helping the deer make it through winters/springs no. Is a farm field or food plot helping thousands of animals and birds survive winter/spring yes. There's your difference."

What is there to keep a farmer or foot plot owner from plowing the plot under as soon as the season is over? What is to keep a farmer from leaving corn in the field until his hunting season is over and then harvesting it? Where is the difference now?

Frost, snow, and profitable farming practices all make it impractical for a farmer or food plotter to "plan" to remove crops after the hunting season. Does it happen, or could it work? Yes, but it goes against logic, and when it is done, it is usually done as a result of unforeseen and unintended consequences.

Finally, using an argument about what "could" be done is really weak. There is no benefit, and really no point, for food plotters or farmers to till under their crops after deer season in this region. I think it is a stretch to claim a similarity between bait piles and food plots/farm fields outside of identifying them as "food to deer". If we are going to regulate against food plots/farming practices we might as well regulate against everything (logging, burning, deer scents, tree stands, deer drives, high powered rifles, modern weapons, etc.) as everything "could" give someone an un-nature advantage, provide an un-natural food source, whatever...

[Basseyes]

InTheNorthwoods great post!

How many that feel, a food plot is the same as a bait pile, have ever done a bait pile or a food plot? If we mow our oats, after they have a seed head on them, we can not hunt deer over them, that would be considered baiting. A rolled corn field, for waterfowl, is considered baiting. If we are allowed to bait, there would be so many legalities, that it would make it a CO"s night mare. I would love to see what we could do, with taking a corn or oat food plot and mowing it. If baiting gets legalized in MN, food plot guys, could make into a science, like the south does. Compared to just throwing a few bags of corn on the ground by a stand, come deer season, like some want now. It seems innocent enough now. But if it gets legalized, it would be off to the races, to one up the next guy and no one would be happy. If food plots were made illegal, all the corn fields on WMA's would have to go away. The main purpose for many of those, is food plots for wildlife, not farming. If baiting was legalized, would it be better or the same for wildlife if we, instead of plating food plots, just piled up 50-100 tons of corn in their place? Pheasants benefit greatly from food plots on WMA's. Should those go away as well? Or is it the same to just dump a pile of corn in the middle of a field and call it good? Food plots are legal and I doubt that will change. They are used as a tool to help benefit wildlife over a long period of time. The DNR and its managers know that. There would be very little good, that would come out of making it legal to hunt over bait or making food plots illegal. Farmers and the DNR could no longer leave sections of fields un harvested to benefit wildlife over the winter, on public or private land. Or we'd have constant complaints about piles and piles of bait all over the woods by the instant gratification generation, if baiting was made legal. Food plots can and do fail miserably because of drought, heat, cold and a host of other problems. I have never seen or heard of a bait pile failing, I like that idea. The issue boiled down to its core, for me is this, food plots are legal, baiting isn't. You bait, you get a ticket and a fine. You don't like it, go to your elected officials and get it changed. If baiting was made legal I doubt many realize what guys with food plots could do to enhance their food plots, giving them an even more unfair advantage, that many would grip about. If it was legal, our group, would probably at least look into taking advantage of it on some level. Morals and ethics are fun topics. I doubt few, don't use some sort of advanced technology, to enhance their hunting, in some way, shape or form. Be it an automobile, a scope, a piece of modern day clothing, ammunition that has been tweaked, LED flashlights, gps, batteries, a smart phone, gortex boots, heat packs, tree stands, bows, rifles, etc, etc, etc.. If you don't like food plots from an ethics stand point, I understand that, so don't hunt over them. If you like the idea of baiting so much, try to get the law changed, simple as that.

[mnviking28]

Plowing it under once the season is over? Are you kidding me? I think I speak for a lot of guys that plant food plots for wildlife that it is about the overall health of your property and animals, not a "guaranteed way" to kill a deer. We spend a lot of time, money and effort to maintain them and help our herd year round. It is NOT intended to just be there for "bait"...If humans are going to continue to basically allow the predator population to run unchecked, it helps the deer to level the playing field. You have a small minority that believe that all the wolves, coyotes, bears, etc. have the right to eat as many as they can catch and that nothing should be done to regulate their numbers. Well, the food plots help the deer stay healthy in the tough months of the year. It allows the does that make it through the winter to have healthier fawns. It allows the bucks that get run down during the rut to put on some weight and survive a tough winter. You don't see these guys that are baiting go out and refresh their corn pile or sugar beet pile in January and February. They take what they can, when they can, and don't really care about the resource as a whole. I, for one, have an issue with being compared to these guys. That's like saying that "if I can legally shoot 5 deer, I am going to do it. Regardless of whether or not my property can sustain it." These are the same guys that strap them to the top of their Navigator and drive them down I94 to show everyone how much of a "man" they are. There are many years that the guys I hunt with only fill about half of our tags. The deer herd couldn't sustain itself otherwise. We see the deer, but know that if we shoot that many, we will be setting back the population for years to come. It is the experience and the comradarie. It is all about being good stewards of the resource, not just the kill.

[Big Dave2]

You don't see these guys that are baiting go out and refresh their corn pile or sugar beet pile in January and February. They take what they can, when they can, and don't really care about the resource as a whole. I, for one, have an issue with being compared to these guys.

Isn't that being a bit judgemental? There are plenty of people who feed deer all year long with corn piles or feeders instead of food plots. If I set up a feeder and keep it full all year long, how is that any different from a food plot?

[arrow]

That is a good point. There are many people who feed the deer and other wildlife year round. Cabelas sells feeders with timers for those that are not onsite all week. The food plot versus a feeder is really just a matter of legalities.

[Big Dave2]

That is a good point. There are many people who feed the deer and other wildlife year round. Cabelas sells feeders with timers for those that are not onsite all week. The food plot versus a feeder is really just a matter of legalities.

Exactly!

And every other argument against baiting legally has absolutely no foundation at all. It is just one opinion vs. another.

[NoWiser]

Exactly!

And every other argument against baiting legally has absolutely no foundation at all. It is just one opinion vs. another.

Same with shooting deer from helicopters, or from the middle of a highway while sitting in your truck, or chasing them with atv's or snowmobiles until they are too tired to run anymore, and then shooting them. A line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm glad in Minnesota they drew it at baiting.

[mnviking28]

You are kidding me right? Is that the reason that there was the TB outbreak up by Grygla/Skime area? Because they had planted food plots and it helped to spread the disease? Or was it because the people that had their cabins up there were baiting/feeding the deer year round? That is why feeding is banned up there now, right? The food plots caused the outbreak of the disease, not the deer eating out of the same feeders as cattle that were infected or infected each other by eating out of the same feed pile/trough in the back yard of someone's cabin. Is that why they banned feeding in the new CWD area? Because they were afraid someone was going to shoot too many deer? Or because they were afraid it was going to the spread disease? Most of these diseases are spread by the transfer of bodily fluids. There is a whole lot more transferred from animal to animal in a bait/feed pile than deer feeding in a food plot. Instead of basing your case on biology and the facts, this is starting to sound like some liberal debate that I would hear down in St. Paul or worse yet Washington. Give me a break!

[Big Dave2]

You are kidding me right? Is that the reason that there was the TB outbreak up by Grygla/Skime area? Because they had planted food plots and it helped to spread the disease? Or was it because the people that had their cabins up there were baiting/feeding the deer year round? That is why feeding is banned up there now, right? The food plots caused the outbreak of the disease, not the deer eating out of the same feeders as cattle that were infected or infected each other by eating out of the same feed pile/trough in the back yard of someone's cabin. Is that why they banned feeding in the new CWD area? Because they were afraid someone was going to shoot too many deer? Or because they were afraid it was going to the spread disease? Most of these diseases are spread by the transfer of bodily fluids. There is a whole lot more transferred from animal to animal in a bait/feed pile than deer feeding in a food plot. Instead of basing your case on biology and the facts, this is starting to sound like some liberal debate that I would hear down in St. Paul or worse yet Washington. Give me a break!

As long as recreational feeding of deer is legal throughout the state of Minnesota, the arguement that baiting is illegal for the reason of disease prevention is totaly invalid. There are many more people feeding deer recreationaly than there are people baiting during deer hunting season.