Zone 3 APR

[psepuncher]

I'd say after ....

the DNR decided to pass out tags like candy....reducing numbers

the winter was severe and very prolonged....reducing numbers

the Bluffland Whitetaile Association's primary goal of wanting bigger bucks along with Lou,.."It's probably the best deer habitat in Minnesota," says Lou Cornicelli, .... Still, he's supportive of regulations aimed at protecting young bucks. ...

reducing numbers.

I can see at this time the implementation of an APR rule as being very untimely. Not only did the whole conglomeration of unhealthy management fail. But so did hunter recruitment last year. I liked the fact they attempted to give tags to those who never took a hunters safety course. What they also failed to do {as noted above} was to have forethought to speculate future severe weather with the APR rule. At a time when by traditional means of hunting, the deer herd population goals were met all across the board.

What that means is, for the past few recent years of liberal regulations, it put a huge dent in the overall population….reducing numbers and a severe record breaking winter to boot…not so good.

Research has shown that deer have the ability to withstand very cold temperatures. Deep snow is the most critical factor with 15 inches as the threshold. Extended periods of deep snow combined with cold temperatures, especially in mid to late winter, lead to deer mortality. It is estimated that about 10 percent of the deer herd typically dies in an average winter. Now what would the mortality number be with 10 times above average?

{it's been in place on public land there for well over 2 years.} And in other states including Utah that failed with APR rules.

At this point I would change the season especially on public land and close it during peak rut. In future years I would provide limited special lotteries for public land during the rut.

It has been well enough to offer hunters the opportunity to hunt mature bucks in the past. Nothing has changed except commercials on tv. and notions of how to grow big bucks on your land.

It's called hunting folks. Get off your lazy man chair, and enjoy your God given right to hunt.

For those that want APR's staewide..ok.

2009 Deer Hunting Season Preview

Posted by Melissa Burlaga

That means changes for the 2009 season.

"The main change this year is we're cutting back on permits because we've been hitting our deer population hard for several years and we've had a little bit of winter the past year that reduced the population especially further north." said Rich Staffon of the DNR Wildlife office in Cloquet.

The DNR reports most Minnesota deer management zones at or slightly below ideal population this year due to last year's harsh winter and predators like wolves, coyotes and humans.

How about inferior bucks?

Article by

T.R. Michels - 2008

By letting the young bucks grow, and taking does, you not only keep the herd below carrying capacity, you increase the buck to doe ratio in favor of bucks. Eventually you will have more older-class bucks, which may translate into more larger racked deer.

{this will happen within a 3 year span}

[going beyond three years, with apr’s]

scientific studies have shown that antler point restrictions, whereby hunters judge the approximate age of a buck by the number of points it carries, may actually lead to smaller racked bucks in the future. In other words, antler point restrictions alone, used to increase the size of the racks on the bucks in the herd, may not work.

These smaller racked bucks may be genetically programmed to grow small racks, and pass on that trait to their offspring, resulting in the yearling bucks producing smaller than normal racks (for the herd, or as opposed to previously harvested bucks) at 2 or 3 years of age. They may also pass on their small-rack genetics to their future offspring, resulting in smaller racked bucks in future years.

I’m just sayin.

[nonteepical]

Absolute civil post and a legitimate question. The ignorance comes in when the question: "why do you feel it's your right to kill any, and as many bucks you want during deer season?" Theres always an ignorant answer like: "theres plenty of big bucks out there, HUNT for them, look at outdoor news". My answer is: shoot your own buck, and let your hunting party and your neighbor, HUNT, and they can shoot their own.

Heres another one, "it will deplete the gene pool, thats why i should be able to shoot any buck i want". Absolute B.S science, like i posted earlier, the mother also passes on her fathers genes, meaning if her father was a booner and she dies of old age, she passed her fathers genes to her fawns all her life, and all her offspring did the same if they bred.

[PEATMOSS]

Heres another one, "it will deplete the gene pool, thats why i should be able to shoot any buck i want". Absolute B.S science, like i posted earlier, the mother also passes on her fathers genes, meaning if her father was a booner and she dies of old age, she passed her fathers genes to her fawns all her life, and all her offspring did the same if they bred.

B.S. science?

Deer, like humans, get HALF of their genetic material from each parent. It is very true that even the mangiest of bucks could father a future Booner if the mother passed on that trait from her father. The point I have been trying to make is that the more we high grade the buck population, the more we will deplete the gene pool. This will take a long time to play out, but it will happen.

If twin sisters that are both 6' tall each get married and each have 5 children, which sister is likely to have taller children, the one that marries a jockey or the one that marries an NBA center?

[PostFrontal]

I am so sick of people throwing out there that hunters that want to shoot trophy deer don't want the meat. Or, "you can't eat the horns"...hahahaa that is really funny...whatever. Or somehow if a Booner was walking with a spike that all meat hunters would shoot the spike.

Somehow it has turned into people implying 50% of hunters go for meat, and 50% go for antlers. Us against them. The trophy hunting you see on tv shows represents a tiny percentage of people in the real world in Minnesota. To paint that picture of all hunters who like the opportunity for a trophy deer in MN is simply wrong. And the same goes for people tyring to pigeonhole others that want to shoot a deer for some venison.

I just got back from a family reunion in St Charles, and my cousin said they shot 12 deer on the family farm by Whitewater and surrounding farms, and a Booner was shot on another of our farms south of St Charles. Like I mentioned before I don't hunt there, I hunt in zone 343 by Rochester.

I would like for everyone posting going forward to say what zone they hunt in so there is disclosure on whether their views are from actual experience in zone 3, or from a different part of the state.

I would also submit that 98% of hunters would like the opportunity for both venison and an opportunity for a trophy deer. It may be different in other parts of the state, but if you hunt in SE MN like I do, I know for a fact that if you put your time in, you have the opportunity for both. And the current APR restrictions do not hinder anyone from doing it.

I don't know any hunter or group that's ultimate goal or intention is to make our hunting experience worse as has been implied in some of these posts. Like was mentioned before, the hardest year for APR is over. Let the regulations go for 3 years like the DNR planned out, and quit trying to manage natural resources through the legislature. It's like a doctor saying you will need 3 rounds of chemo to get rid of your cancer. And after 1 round you say it didn't work, let's scrap the plan. Makes no sense.

If after 3 years APR doesn't work, let's get rid of it. But we should see if see it through before we make judgements.

[Getanet]

PostFrontal, I will agree with you that it seems this debate has become characterized as purely "brown its down" versus "trophy buck" when in reality it's not nearly as cut and dried as that for most hunters.

However, it doesn't matter where anyone hunts. This has become a political issue, and people have to follow political issues, form opinions and and make their voice known well before it hits home for them. Hunters in Zone 3 have the spotlight on them and they will just have to get used to it.

I would also submit that 98% of hunters would like the opportunity for both venison and an opportunity for a trophy deer. It may be different in other parts of the state' date=' but if you hunt in SE MN like I do, I know for a fact that if you put your time in, you have the opportunity for both. And the current APR restrictions do not hinder anyone from doing it.

[PostFrontal]

How's this sound for when there were no APR and the roles were reversed:

"Hunters in MN already have the opportunity to get a deer. Certainly not every year, but the opportunity is there. Not having APR restrictions doesn't hinder anyone from doing it, but they certainly hinder the hunter who is interested in a trophy buck or doesn't have time for whatever reason from taking a trophy buck."

If we agree that the opportunity for a trophy buck and to shoot other deer for meat already exists in zone 3, then we can put that disucssion behind us and move onto the reason for APR which is a well balanced age structure for our herd. And if non-APR regulations, or the for-APR regulations are a better way to do that.

Noone is disputing that the 1st year is the hardest of this, and some hunters that hunted in Zone 3 had legitimate problems. But what is supposed to happen by year 3 is totally different than year 1. Year 3 is only next year! If we get to the end of next year and everyone hates it, then we can all get rid off it. But we won't ever know unless we let it run through next year.

[jkcmj]

I only hope the bill in the legislature passes as is, and alas I don't have to worry about aguing with people about it, at least till next time

[james_walleye]

Your in the minority when it comes to zone 3 hunters on that thought.....

[96trigger]

I hunt Zone 342 and zone 344. I hunt Archery, Firearm, and ML season. I have hunted relatives family farms since I could walk and have hunted Whitewater public hunting land. I agree 100% with PostFrontal's post.

I will respectfully agree to disagree with anyone that doesn't believe in APR on every issue except that it is their "right" to shoot the small buck. Sportsman are constantly being regulated, it happens with almost every game animal and fish. Deer should be no different.

[Getanet]

Your in the minority when it comes to zone 3 hunters on that thought.....

Only 47% of those surveyed were for APR.

PostFrontal, when it comes to APR and mature bucks, I believe deer hunting is and should be a tool of population control, not trophy development. If someone wants to manage their private land for trophy bucks that's wonderful and I wish them all the best. But I don't feel laws should be made to make everyone conform to that standard. From the DNRs deer density population data there are plenty of deer in Zone 3 and if that data is anywhere near accurate the population is large enough that people can choose what style of hunting suits them best.

[PostFrontal]

Are the laws before not set up to make those that would like more opportunity to shoot a trophy deer conform to others standards when I let that young buck go, they get shot on the neighbors property, and it never had a chance to grow up to its potential.

Seems like you can apply your logic to both sides, so how do you choose your way at the detriment to others?

[Getanet]

The pre-APR laws may have hurt someone's chances of getting a "trophy buck" but hunters were certainly allowed to try. There was no law forbidding them from shooting a buck over a certain size.

You said yourself a trophy was possible in Zone 3 for those who put in the time.

Ultimately the only control a hunter has over a buck is whether they will shoot one they see. If they decide to let it pass any number of scenarios could happen. It may or may not be shot by the neighbor, it may be shot at and missed, it may get hit by a car, it may walk past their stand next year, or may die of old age.

[james_walleye]

.....the majority of hunters wanted some form of protection for young bucks. So again, your thoughts are in the minority......

[Rippinlip]

Just keep it in Zone 3.

It amazes me to look at the Outdoor News I get weekly and see all the big bucks in it from the Zone 3 area. If there is so few "trophy bucks" in that area, everyone and I mean everyone must send in a picture to that paper.

I thought we would have to wait a couple of years to see this pan out, but all those bucks looked to have made it through the past no APR seasons.....

Just an observation.

[DHost21]

I agree with APR completely but thats just me. The one thing I would like to see though more than anything even if they dont implement APR in all zones or other zones i would love to see some sort of restrictions on public land to make that more appealing to people. Just my thought on a way to make public land more appealing and giving people that cant manage their own land a better chance at shooting a nice deer

[PostFrontal]

Does anyone actually read the other posts before they write something?

Or do they just take the part they want, act like the rest of the sentence was never there, rewrite the same thing in a different way so they continue to rehash the same things that have already been said when everyone else is trying to move the discussion forward?

If you did read just a couple posts up, you would have saw that those of us that actually hunt in zone 3 said there is an opportunity for trophy deer and to shoot a deer for meat even without shooting young bucks.

So once again, the question has now moved on to the actual intent of APR...what is the best way to have a healthy age structure to our herd in ZONE 3, non-apr or apr?

[psepuncher]

Just keep it in Zone 3.

It amazes me to look at the Outdoor News I get weekly and see all the big bucks in it from the Zone 3 area. If there is so few "trophy bucks" in that area, everyone and I mean everyone must send in a picture to that paper.

I thought we would have to wait a couple of years to see this pan out, but all those bucks looked to have made it through the past no APR seasons.....

Just an observation.

I agree keep it in zone 3.

Speaking from getting actual facts on apr's. research has shown that even after 14 years of apr's, it lead to alot of high grading. Didn't leave much to be desired from a trophy hunter's POV.

This will be good for zone 3, and thankfully my wall...I mean freezer, does not reside there.

[james_walleye]

Real curious as to where you got the info. As to my knowledge APRs have not been in place anywhere for even close to 14 years.

[Jameson]

...So once again, the question has now moved on to the actual intent of APR...what is the best way to have a healthy age structure to our herd in ZONE 3, non-apr or apr?

What is the best way? Biologically, most deer experts agree a buck lottery is far superior to APR's in creating a healthy age structure to our herd. Socially, hunters prefer APR's.

[psepuncher]

Does anyone actually read the other posts before they write something?

Or do they just take the part they want, act like the rest of the sentence was never there, rewrite the same thing in a different way so they continue to rehash the same things that have already been said when everyone else is trying to move the discussion forward?

If you did read just a couple posts up, you would have saw that those of us that actually hunt in zone 3 said there is an opportunity for trophy deer and to shoot a deer for meat even without shooting young bucks.

So once again, the question has now moved on to the actual intent of APR...what is the best way to have a healthy age structure to our herd in ZONE 3, non-apr or apr?

what age structure are you referring to?

does this mean young antlerless deer should be restricted too?

[james_walleye]

I've made a few calls the last couple days to a few people in the know regarding gene grading. A common thread has emerged. With the whitetail population in se mn as well as the esablished genetics we have, its almost inconceivable to have high grading occur. Someone brought up the decline of p&y and b&c entries recently and how possibly APRs and high grading has contributed to this. Pennsylvania's b&c entries have increased 500% in the past decade since the statewide Apr reg was implemented. They also all said the same thing in another regard. If they thought gene grading was at all a potential issue, they would have raised their hands and would have never let this be implemented. Basically this issue is brought up through fearmongering.

Genetics aren't. as simple as "well if you have a couple of 3 year old 6 pointers that you don't shoot out of the herd that in 10 years, or 100 years your going to have a bunch more 3 year old 6 pointers running around". Talk to anyone who knows their stuff and they will tell you that genetics are way to complicated, and there are so many factors involved, to say that yes, APRs will cause gene grading. For all we know about that 6 pointers background genetics, his background genes might be better than the 10 pointer next to him. You can't judge a deers background genetics by physical appearance.

[matchset]

You can't judge a deers background genetics by physical appearance.

well said.

i was a small as a adolescent, but i'm not small anymore! i grew up

[bottom-bouncer]

The biggest thing that alot of you are missing is that the apr is supposed to help increase the doe harvest I understand that did not happen this past year but it needs to play out. jameson you keep talking about a buck lottery that would work but first the herd needs to be put in balance buck to doe ratio. Yes there are those two tracts of land that dont have enough does. one were they just killed 1200 deer and one by reeds landing. but there are also those area,s were we are overrun by deer. from my house to my in-laws it is exactly 4.5 miles on the north side of the road it is wooded the south side of the road is cropland. I travel that stretch of road about four times a week not uncommon to see 70 deer in that stretch that is alot of deer. and I know of other places that are the sameway. its to many! Last year I hit one and two months later the wife hit one they are like rats. There are people who wont shoot a doe if it has fawns because they want to protect the fawns. I say kill every deer that does not have antlers they all breed eventually and then we have more rats. and if its 140" or better kill them to.

[psepuncher]

let the immature deer walk, it's nothing new.

And I totally agree with it.,... let the immature deer walk,

but improving age structure does not mean improving trophy status as the end goal.

Talking about gene defenciencies and improving rack quality {again the majority of apr people fail in this catagory} and improving age structure is totally different.

Some people even try to mix the two up. This leads to high grading,

and has been proven by many more states than Penn. And is why more states are consistanly changing their APR regions and or restructuring apr guidelines.

[psepuncher]

I've made a few calls the last couple days to a few people in the know regarding gene grading. A common thread has emerged. With the whitetail population in se mn as well as the esablished genetics we have, its almost inconceivable to have high grading occur.

And again what you have is only a legal buck to shoot.

High grading is referencing legal staus to legally harvest.

It doesn't have anything at all to do with maturity.

I've proven this on this HSOforum a few times.

The reason and it's the only reason, some say it's not high grading is because two things that happen in SE MN.

You have good soil to grow big ol' bucks , and as a side effect, bigger racks.

Does not have anything to do with age structure.

A Trophy Hunter by all means, needs to know what his animal is capeable of producing per region.

Private-land hunters, however, have more freedom to be selective and are more willing to pass up legal bucks that barely meet the minimum requirements as they wait for a mature, heavy-antlered buck. So after 14 years of point restrictions, the MDFWP has scrapped the four-point rule and instead adopted a measurement scale. Now, hunters have to judge either a buck’s antler spread or main beam length. In two management zones, which cover about threequarters of the state, bucks must have at least a 10-inch inside spread or a main beam length of at least 13 inches.