Why aren't smallmouth bass abundant in MN?

[MNcz]

Hey,

season is closing on like September 14th I think for smallmouth. I know a couple spots where I can catch one, but wondering why it is there's so many lakes with largemouth and so few with smallmouth. I know they like the St. Croix and pretty sure other rivers with swift current and big lakes, such as Minnetonka, where there's lots of channels and current.

Thx

[slipperybob]

stocking...not the christmas kind. Lol's

[Cecil]

Its about where in the state you live. Ask the guys in the north part of the state and they will tell you there are plenty of smallmouth. We are pretty blessed for smallies actually. A LOT of other states only have a few lakes.

[eyeguy 54]

You can still catch smallies after sept 14th but the need to be released pronto. CPR the big ones.

[reinhard1]

i was talking to a dnr supervisor yesterday about a lake i fish and to give him information from a diver that would interest him. the subject of bass came up and you might be interested to know both largemouth and smallies are are more prominant now more than ever before. largemouth are now found in lakes in northern mn were none were found before. and smallies are getting more numerous also. if you want some smallie action try the rivers as you mentioned or lakes such as mill lacs and lake vermillion. there are a ton of smallie lakes in this state. go to the dnr HSOforum and you can find all the info you need. good luck.

[RK]

Hiya -

Smallmouth are more abundant in MN now than they've ever been. A lot of lakes which had marginal or essentially remnant populations in the past now have thriving populations. I can think of several lakes off the top of my head where smallmouth were never recorded on DNR lake surveys until the last 10 years.

The lake my cabin's on is a good example. There have always been smallmouth present. Growing up we'd catch a few by accident every summer. When I was a kid they all spawned in one area of the lake and I'd go watch them on their nests. Now, there are beds all over the lake in the spring, and I get to spend the summer watching YOY smallies under my dock. There's a pretty healthy population in there (ask TonkaBass... )

Why the increase on that lake, as well as several others across a pretty wide geographic range?

I've had a lot of conversations about it with some biologists I know (some from MN, some not). I think there are a few reasons for the increase in populations, each of which are at play to varying degrees depending on the lake.

One factor in MN at least is the fall C&R only season. Smallies really, really concentrate in the fall, and my local paper used to have pictures every fall of stringers of big smallies when some walleye head stumbled on a school of them. They probably didn't realize that in some cases literally every smallmouth in the lake was in one spot, and it was pretty easy to clobber them with a jig and a redtail chub. Now those fish are being released. I'm sure some are kept during the summer but harvest is probably nowhere near what it was in the fall before the C&R rule.

Another factor is that the DNR is trying to develop the populations. On several lakes in my area the DNR has put in smallmouth spawning structures (split logs anchored with cinder blocks) to help the smallies spawn. (Not sure how much they help the smallies but the rock bass seem to like them - heh.) Add to that special regs on a lot of lakes and rivers, and you're getting less harvest overall as well as better spawning habitat.

Finally, there's climate change. Without turning this political, every biologist I've talked to about it has mentioned it as a factor in increasing smallmouth populations. This is true with biologists from Eastern Ontario to Washington state. The length of growing season is critical to smallmouth recruitment. YOY smallmouths MUST reach 1.5" long by the time the cold water period hits to have any chance of survival. On lakes with marginal smallmouth habitat to begin with and only occasional spawning success, low recruitment year to year kept overall populations low. But increase the YOY survival by even a few percent annually due to a longer growing season and you have population growth instead of just maintenance. If a lake has a strong year class even every 3rd year vs every 5th, you are talking about a lot more smallmouth relatively speaking. (From what the same biologists tell me, the same is occurring with some natural muskie populations, but the news isn't so good for lake trout, ciscoes and walleyes in terms of the effects of climate change...)

So combine all those factors on a single body of water with the "right stuff" for a smallmouth to thrive (which many MN lakes have) and all of a sudden, you have more smallies by far than even 15 years ago.

Cheers,

Rob Kimm

[reinhard1]

i was also going to state what you did about climate change as a reason the dnr believes the spread of largemouth in lakes further north. these bass were not stocked and found there way there somehow. they are also increasing in population with a longer growing season as to the reasons you mentioned and the dnr. thank you for your post. good luck.

[luckycrank]

You can still catch smallies after sept 14th but the need to be released pronto. CPR the big ones.

cpr em all!!

[NTW]

On the whole climate change part...

I went to Canada (NW Ontario) for a week this year and was treated to the unbelievable smallmouth action (I was ready to quit reality and live in a tent on the lake). Anyway, I'm curious on the climate theory because that growing season is much shorter than ours and the SMB fishing has been that good for 25yrs according to the lodge owner. Off the subject, he (and the other locals) hates SMB and looked at me like I was crazy when I told him that was my target species.

[reinhard1]

the only reason climate change was brought up was to answere the original question of this thread and the dnr's opinion of it. i too have fished lakes in northern minnesota were smallies have been there in great numbers since i was a kid. but why largemouts are moving up in lakes up north and starting to flurish and have never been stocked there can be a number of reasons. i think they had to come from somewhere obviously-other water sources[creeks,rivers]or fertilized eggs transported by birds[ducks,geese,cranes] and then adapt and grow in numbers. could be that simple. good luck.

[T-water]

It's also important to note that Smallmouth are not native to most of MN. Perhaps it took time for them to take hold in some areas.

[reinhard1]

thats right and the same with walleys. thank god they are all here. good luck.

[RK]

Hiya -

I asked a biologist friend of mine from NOW Ontario the exact same question...heh.

Obviously there are places that have had thriving SMB populations all along.

Some of the field observations and research going on right now though is showing behavioral changes that are varying from behavior observed over a pretty long period of time. A lot of this research has been done by Dr. Mark Ridgway on Lake Opeongo, and the SMB population study there is the longest contiguous study of an animal population anywhere in the world (it started in the 1930s).

One of the observed behaviors is shallower movement in fall and increased feeding activity into the cold water period as fish try to gain enough energy reserves to overwinter. The theory is increased activity is becoming necessary because higher recruitment is causing increased competition for forage. I talked to Gord Pyzer about this a while ago (when I have a smallmouth question, I ask Gord...) and he said they've observed it on Lake of the Woods. 10 years ago in mid to late fall they'd find smallies stacked in wintering locations, but now they're catching them shallow where you'd find them in early summer. There's a deep to shallow migration in fall they didn't see in the past, and the deep wintering areas that were previously loaded with schooled up smallies are empty until right before ice up. They're also, based on telemetry studies, seeing increased movement under the ice which may indicate the need to feed during the winter. Basically, it's possible that the bioenergetics and energy requirements are changing in pretty significant ways.

Climate change can also, according to Ridgway, have other implications. Changes in thermocline depth, for example, have already been shown to affect nesting success - thermal stability changes caused by NAO (North Atlantic Oscillation) and EN/SO (El Nino/Southern Oscillation) that increase with climate change can make those changes more profound. It can also affect forage species like ciscoes, etc... Brood survival rates change, and that, according to some recent research, also changes nest guarding behavior in some pretty amazing ways. (Really amazing, in fact...) So there are a lot of unknowns in how climate change will affect populations over time, but it's already manifesting itself in some pretty significant behavioral changes.

[reinhard1]

thank you for your post. i respect your opinons and views, so in the spirit of this thread-how in your opinion do bass,[or any species of fresh water fish in mn] enter lakes without being stocked? you seem to have good sources, and i was wondering if they ever have shared any ideas or facts with you. i gave my thoughts on an above post but i just have always wondered if there is an exact answer. thank you. good luck.

[TonkaBass]

Good stuff!

[Jig Master]

I disagree with the whole climate change theory, but still interesting to read and see other peoples thoughts on issues like this. I think water quality and bait bucket stockers have more to do with it than anything.

[mn_bowhunter]

Just because a lake is not stocked does not mean it is not "stocked". Lots of people think they know what's best for a lake and put fish in waters they did not inhabit. Fish do not have legs so they have to get spread somehow. Getting a viable population of a species from birds carrying eggs is extremely unlikely. More likely is flood events temporarily connecting waters or people spreading fish.

[reinhard1]

yes, people do those things i agree. but i know lakes up north were there are no creeks entering and fish that are not stocked apear. and i have talked to dnr people who agree that birds do transport fertilized eggs. so that's the thing. i am no fisherie biologist just a fisherman and that has always puzzeled me. i go to lakes that are remote at times and there is no record of stocking. bass as talked about in past posts are not native here. they are eighther stocked or just appear is the best way i can put it. good luck.

[matthothand]

You're off your rocker if you think smallmouth aren't abundant and there's not many places to find them in MN. Maybe you forgot about the BWCA and the rest of northern MN.

[mainbutter]

Just because a lake is not stocked does not mean it is not "stocked". Lots of people think they know what's best for a lake and put fish in waters they did not inhabit. Fish do not have legs so they have to get spread somehow. Getting a viable population of a species from birds carrying eggs is extremely unlikely. More likely is flood events temporarily connecting waters or people spreading fish.

Tornadoes

[reinhard1]

your probably refering to my last post. no, i'm with you, if you read my earlier posts i do say there are tremendous smallie populations. the arrowhead was and still is my stomping ground. i know the area well and have fished it all my life and will continue to do so. good luck.

[RK]

Hiya -

I suppose you can argue the causes of climate change, but if you doubt whether it IS changing, all I can say is ask a fisheries biologist...

As far as how fish get into a system, it takes a surprisingly small number of individuals to establish a population if conditions are right. There was a small lake not too far from where I grew up that got full of carp and bullheads, and the DNR killed it off with retenone so they could re-stock it with bluegills.

I asked the DNR guy how many bluegills they stocked to get the population re-established. I was assuming I was going to hear "300" or something like that. He said "6." I said "WHAT?" "Yep. 3 males, 3 females." Fast forward a dozen years and the lake is full of gills - from a starting point of six individuals.

Cheers,

Rob Kimm

[Nick Kuhn]

You would think they would have used more just for genetic diversity's sake. I agree that it doesn't take much. The limiting factor isn't the number of fish available to spawn, but rather the conditions in the lake for the fry once they hatch (food availability, cover to avoid predation, water temperatures, bacteria levels, etc). As far as smallmouth are concerned they do best in mesotrophic lakes, and many lakes in MN and WI are eutrophic (and we are turning them more and more eutrophic every year).

[NTW]

Great post, thanks RK

[Jig Master]

. As far as smallmouth are concerned they do best in mesotrophic lakes, and many lakes in MN and WI are eutrophic (and we are turning them more and more eutrophic every year).

I agree with this completely, and that's why that whole climate change theory doesn't fly. If the climate is changing to make certain bodies of water more hospitable to smallies, there would also be certain bodies of water that would have their smallie habitat marginalized or eliminated, making it a wash.