Sea Foam Forbidden!!

[Ufatz]

Holy Moly you guys. My engine mechanic just told my brother in no uncertain terms to STOP using Sea Foam in his 115 Yamaha; the same engine I have. He apparently has a couple of filthy injectors and the boat guy says is is because of the Sea Foam. He said "Sea Foam is fine stuff in TWO stroke engines but it is NO GOOD in these fine tolerance four stroke Yamahas." He instead recommended a Mercury product of some kind. No, he is not a Mercury dealer or a retailer of anything really.....just a full service repair and storage place.

I told him flat out that I was VERY surprised at his comments about Sea Foam because I have heard so much good for so long about it.

What do you think?

[blakeb]

i run it every other tank in my f115 no problems here,

[CAMAN]

I would be looking closer at the fuel he's using rather than the Seafoam. Never heard anyone have problems with seafoam in anything.

[LMITOUT]

Use Ring-Free additive which is made by Yamaha for Yamaha engines such as yours and you'll be fine. I'm not going to say that the Sea-Foam was the reason for the injector issues but Ring-Free is recommended by the manufacturer which might give you the peace of mind you're looking for.

I run Ring Free and non-oxy gas in every tank and my 90 Yamaha has been running like a champ so far (knock on wood).

[311Hemi]

I'm not buying it. I would be curious to know exactly how he thinks the seafoam is clogging the injectors??

Could it be that the people who are claiming to use seafoam (instead of ring free) are using the seafoam at an incorrect ratio and it's not really doing the job they think it's doing (thus clogging the injectors from lack of protection)? Some people will run seafoam at 1oz/10 gallons of gas like the Ring Free is labeled, when the seafoam instructions actually call for 1oz/1 gallon.

Or, maybe the injectors were dirty before they started using seafoam and the seafoam caused a larger chunk of sludge to fall off, but if that were the case I would guess the Merc stuff would do the same.

I would venture to guess this was caused by fuel and that these engines did not have an external 10 micron fuel filter installed......just a guess though.

I use Seafoam to stabilize fuel and use the Ring Free in addition to that, plus have the external fuel filter as well for my F115.

[boatfixer]

I've read that too large of dose will not completly burn away. Thats with most products though. Most people think that if the right dose works, a whole bunch should be really good, not true. These engines have been engineered to burn gasoline at a given air/fuel ratio, temperature, compression ratio and ignition spec. Little consideration is given to over the counter additives so by incorrectly using products like SeaFoam, you potentially risk "leaving something behind". I had the pleasure of talking with a fuel system engineer from Ford about my F-150 and he said its a never ending battle when it comes to gasoline formulation.

[Fish&Fowl]

I would have a hard time believing sea foam could be the cause of the problem, I've used it for years in every boat, motor, truck, sled and atv I've ever owned.

However, I have switched to the marine formula Sta-bil in my 2006 Yamaha 150 4-stroke...only time will tell how effective it is.

[harvey lee]

I switched to Sta-Bil about 5 years ago. I use it in all my small engines including the boat and 4 wheeler.

Never an issue with the Sta-Bil.

[cribbageboy]

I've been using it in my '99 Plymouth Neon for years. I've never had a problem with it. Would be kind of interesting to hear what his reasons for believing sea foam causes problems.

[muskymaniac4ever]

I just purchased a new motor, yamaha 4 stroke, and the mechanic at the dealership, said don't use seafoam , if the gas sits too long it turns to milky white and can gum up the injectors.

[Ralph Wiggum]

...if the gas sits too long it turns to milky white...

That I would like to see

[311Hemi]

Originally Posted By: muskymaniac4ever

...if the gas sits too long it turns to milky white...

That I would like to see

[Ralph Wiggum]

Maybe if the gas was compromised with water, and I would have to imagine a decent amount of water?

I could believe that, but I can't imagine it picking up that much water just by sitting there.

[311Hemi]

Originally Posted By: 311Hemi

Maybe if the gas was compromised with water, and I would have to imagine a decent amount of water?

I could believe that, but I can't imagine it picking up that much water just by sitting there.

I would agree, probably some other underlying issue there.

I have run seafoam in everything for years (not the truck) and in toys/equipment that sit 5-7+ months I have never seen milky white gas. Although I also fill my tanks to the top before storage to prevent moisture buildup in the tank during the offseason.

[delmuts]

Hmm! i drained the gas from my boat last year after it sat for 16 months. The fuel had been treated with seafoam before i stored it.The gas looked and smelled good, and my truck never missed a beat running it!

[BobT]

The thing I wonder about with additives is this. If I use a particular additive regularly all the time and never experience any problems, how do I know not using it would result in a different outcome?

[Ufatz]

A follow-up to my original post. I believe the reason for injector problems with my brothers motor may NOT be related to use of Sea Foam, as the motor tech said. I think instead the problem developed because (a) the product was not used properly i.e. "if a little is good a lot will be even gooder." and (b)the fact that motor was not run that much last year and the tank sat with a lot of OLD gas in it.

I was skeptical of the mechanic's original "diagnosis" although he seems to be a good enough engine man.

I believe an after-market filter/separator, like the Racor's we used on everything in Alaska in the good old days is probably the best way to go even down here in the civilized shallow water parts of the world.

[311Hemi]

The thing I wonder about with additives is this. If I use a particular additive regularly all the time and never experience any problems, how do I know not using it would result in a different outcome?

You don't.

The question is, what are you willing to do/pay to make sure your equipment stays running well and help decrease your chances at high dollar repairs, especially when we are aware of potential fuel and carbon issues in outboards?

You may very well stop using all additives and get by just fine for the life of your engine. Or, your engine may start idling rough one day out in the middle of Mille Lacs because an injector is plugged or your engine is all carboned up from all the trolling you do. Now you get to go home and start figuring out what may be wrong when there's a good chance the proper additives/filters could have prevented the issue in the first place.

[delcecchi]

The problem is that there is no reliable information as to which additives contain what and how well they actually work.

In general, cars these days run reliably and don't have injectors clogging all the time even if they sit for a month, or don't get driven that much. And they don't need a can of stuff added to the tank every time.

I realize a car is not a boat and cars aren't around water and so on. But it would be nice if there were some source of information that wasn't trying to sell me something.

I find it hard to believe that a modern 4stroke which is basically a car engine would need additives. Two strokes are another story, since they are basically kluges in the first place and they are running fuel designed for another application, so they need all the help they can get. But a source of information would still be nice.

Can someone point to such a source?

[311Hemi]

I find it hard to believe that a modern 4stroke which is basically a car engine would need additives. Two strokes are another story, since they are basically kluges in the first place and they are running fuel designed for another application, so they need all the help they can get. But a source of information would still be nice.

Can someone point to such a source?

A few thoughts come to mind:

1) First is that modern auto's IMO have better fuel storage that boats, thus a decreased chance at water in the fuel which IMO increases the risk.

2) Outboard engines don't have injectors clogging all the time either, the majority don't. It does happen in auto's and it does happen in outboards. Go to any auto forum and search for injector issues....my guess is you will see some. I think part of the injector issue goes back to my first point.

3) Look at the RPM's range in which your car engine runs for the majority of it's life, I would venture to guess it's not idling or running low RPM's very much. Now look at your outboard...especially for guys like me that troll a lot. Much better chance at carbon building up when the engine is idling or running low RPM's. Car vs 4strk outboard is two entirely different operating environments.

4) For the majority of people I would guess that the car engine gets used much more often than the outboard.....and that being daily/weekly.

As far as what in each additive you can look up the MSDS sheets and it may tell you the majority of what in it. As far as a place that rates how well they work, word of mouth is probably the best. There may be some articles out there as well.

[BobT]

I just wonder how much of the "word of mouth" data that is out there is really just trust in advertising hype and not based on real facts.

I rarely use additives. I admit that I will run a fuel injector/carburetor cleaner in a tank of gasoline once in a while. In my cars and boat, maybe once a year just to clean things up a little but in all honesty I don't know that it is cleaning anything. The only way to tell is to take it apart and do a microscopic inspection, run the tank with the additive, and then tear it apart again for an inspection to see the results.

I also never concern myself with gasoline storage and I've explained this on other threads as well. Only once in my 51 year life can I honestly say that I had gasoline go rancid and that was 10% ethanol blend of 32:1 2-cycle mix that sat in an old plastic anti-freeze jug for over five years.

I guess until I hear to the contrary I will continue to use the additives occasionally but I have never felt it necessary to use it regularly. I almost wonder if it is possible that used regularly it could actually do more harm than good. Our engines are designed to run on gasoline but I don't know if they are designed to run on Seafoam or any other additive.

[theoilman]

First of all, yes I am a sponsor and have a vested interest in selling my products, but I attempt to give accurate information in many posts I have put in these forums.

You have covered several subjects which really need to be answered separately, this is a long post.

Yes, 4-stroke outboards are similar to automotive engines, but not as close as you imply. The oil, the sump, and the way it is pumped is considerably different - because the engine is turned on its tail, and normal gravity in an automotive engine turned this way would flood the crank and pistons with oil which the outboard has to control differently. The engine is almost all aluminum to be lighter (which automotive engines are headed that way). The outboard revs much faster than most automotive engines and the outboard needs far superior foam control than its automotive counterpart. The outboard is subject many times to longer storage intervals than your car and needs different storage protection additives. Most of these problems are addressed by the NMMA FCW spec, so you should always use this spec in the outboard 4-stroke.

The fuel system, fuel tank, vapor and water control are totally different between the outboard and the auto systems. The auto/truck fuel systems today use a nearly sealed gas tank / fuel system - the tank is vented back internally through the engine where the water from the atmosphere problem is nearly eliminated. Auto/trucks use fuel at a fairly fast rate, most people typically use a tank per week, and fuel oxidation/varnishing/octane loss/ethanol breakdown are minimized. The outboard uses a vented tank that as fuel is used will suck water vapor with the air directly from the atmosphere. In the outboard fuel will sit sometimes for months without being used or used completely causing a multitude of problems. Today's auto/truck engines - the gas companies claim how good their additives are - most of the time they are really saying they contain the government required 120 ppm (parts per million) of detergent. For most of today's highway use gasoline engines this is not good enough to maintain a good clean efficiently operating fuel system. They need a periodic system cleaning - whether you pay a mechanic $59 to $150 (typical fuel system/intake system cleaning prices) or use a really good quality cleaner - Seafoam is a favorite of many on these forums, I have never used it. I prefer AMSOIL's PI Performance Improver - The AMSOIL PI will take you to over 4000 ppm of cleaners - the strongest on the market today (do not use more than once every 4000 miles).

The government has forced this ethanol blended gasoline on us, and when doing so it is designed to work where the vast majority of fuel goes - highway use. But when used in any small engine with a vented fuel tank it really causes a lot of problems. The ethanol has a very light bond for the gasoline, but has a potential very high bond for water. When water gets vented into the tank it combines with the ethanol, separates to the bottom and starts causing problems. AMSOIL has just introduced a new product for all small engines with vented tanks - Quick Shot gasoline additive. It chemically keeps the water from bonding with the alcohol, keeps the water in tiny droplets so it can burn through the engine as it needs to do. It also contains cleaners, detergents, decarbonizer and short term (2-month) storage protection.

As to what additives contain, yes you can check out the MSDS sheets, but most are written to not really reveal what is there, and written in technical terms that we don't understand. Most of the time they reveal the "contains petroleum distolates" which says very little helpful information to compare them. They are all proprietory blends that this is done deliberately - they don't want us to know and do a good job of concealing it.

[caseymcq]

SeaFoam is good stuff. I use it in everything, truck, SUV, outboards, lawnmower, auger, chainsaw, snowblower, tiller, cornflakes, etc. It keeps everything running smoothly.

[propster]

Oilman is right, MSDS won't list ingredients unless it's a hazardous material. That's the only thing that's required to be listed, so if it is a proprietary formulation you won't learn much there. Are there any consumer reports or anything like that out on the various stabilizers - kind of a neutral test of sorts? Of course they probably don't run the gamut of all the possibilities there are for how an engine is used or cared for or all the different types of fuel, etc.

[BobT]

As to what additives contain, yes you can check out the MSDS sheets, but most are written to not really reveal what is there, and written in technical terms that we don't understand. Most of the time they reveal the "contains petroleum distolates" which says very little helpful information to compare them. They are all proprietory blends that this is done deliberately - they don't want us to know and do a good job of concealing it./quote]

Seems like a good reasonable explanation, Oilman. Your last sentence though, I think is not entirely correct. It's not us average Joe's they are concealing the proprietary recipes from, it's the competition. We have a conspiracy mentality in this country and in some cases fully understandable but not everything kept in secret is a conspiracy.

For example, would you be willing to dig up the recipes for your products and post them here on this HSOforum for all to see? I'm sure the answer is no because you need to protect your company's proprietary information from your competition.