APRs in Lottery Areas?

[96trigger]

changing the laws probably won't stop alot of cross tagging, but it would help, and probably would prevent some from doing it. If it was illegal, it would be very hard for someo people to shoot two nice bucks and not tell people about it. If it were illegal, it would make it tougher.

As for kids, I'd like to address that topic. I think saying we should go away from APR for the kids is a cop out. I teach kids, many of these kids are leading the way and getting their party hunting members to practice QDM. They are OK with not shooting a buck every year, and are just fine shooting a doe. I hate that argument. What do you do with the kid that catches his first walleye but its under the limit, keep it anyway? Or does the kid quit fishing right then and there forever? Almost everybody on here had didn't have the advantages of hunting multiple seasons and special youth hunts, but guess what, we kept hunting any way. These kids will be the hunters of tomorrow because of what we as parents and teachers teach them. If we teach them to let the little ones grow, they will.

I wouild like to add that this is not for lotto areas, only IH or Managed.

[MUSKY18]

Right on Trigger!!! The resillience of kids is amazing, and they will continue on doing "fun" things when they are taught properly.

Musky...I hear ya on the young ones. Nothing worse than listening to the fellas complain about never shooting that wall hanger and then in the next sentence tell you how good that spike they just shot is going to taste!

[Musky Buck]

That's just it Musky, they shoot 1 1/2 year old bucks and then in the next sentence talk about how there hasn't been a hog taken around here in years. They don't realize there are only so many antlered bucks to go around and with bow,rifle and now getting heavier muzzy pressure, car kills and etc. there just isn't a buck for everyone every year. I'm convinced after 26 years of rifle and muzzy the deer stands out number the bucks in the area I hunt in 3 or 4 to 1.

[NoWiser]

Good post Trigger, couldn't agree more! I think the first-time hunter thing is complete [PoorWordUsage]. I took a good friend out this year for the first time (he got his hunter safety certificate 2 weeks before season) and opening morning he let a 6 pointer walk right under his stand. Didn't see another deer all weekend, but when I asked him he said he had no regrets. He ended up shooting a nice doe third weekend and couldn't have been happier. He also knows there is probably going to be a nice buck waiting for him next year since we were in an area with absolutely no other hunting pressure, so he is that much more excited now.

[96trigger]

Just an FYI, if you have a kid and are trying to teach them to wait or practice QDM, trail cameras really help. A kid will wait forever if he knows that there is a nice buck in the area that they he/she look forward to possibley seeing.

Along with that, How old do you think most of these guys are that pushing to have the regs changed? I'm betting a large number are under 30 years old. These youth that you are talking about are already changing hunting as we know it, this type of discussion(QDM) won't go away, I only see it getting pushed for harder in the future. For better or for worse, we will just have to see. QDM is gaining steam on its own, but nearly impossible to practice publicly without some regulation.

[deerminator]

I agree totally 96trigger. Most kids are there to hunt, not to kill, to hunt with dad and/or mom and uncle Bob and so on. The experience isn't only about killing "A" deer. That's definitely part of it and makes it all the more exciting, but its about hunting and the woods and deer camp and so on. If taught from an early age, most will voluntarily hold out for a larger deer.

BTW, I just read the Star Tribune article on why Wisconsin kicks our butt in terms of deer harvested and big bucks downed. The article concludes its all about habitat, nutrition and overall population. I whole-heartedly agree. You get the population up and provide them with what they need to thrive and the big bucks will come APRs or no APRs. Unfortunately, Wisconsin will always have the advantage unless we revert much of our farmland to woodlands again, and make it so the northern third of the state is somehow warmer. : )

[ntrider]

how much fun would that be if everyone shot trophy bucks??? i see no pride in it at all...the fun part is trying to find the big one that was smart enough to dodge society for the last 5 yrs...aside from getting the numbers up in certain areas i like what the dnr is doing...

[96trigger]

Just because there might be more, doesn't mean everyone is going to get one. I know people that hunt in well managed areas with a good deer population, they have some very good years, but also some very down years. This year, 1 of 6 shot a nice buck. last year, they were 3 for 6.

If the DNR doesn't change a thing in my zone, I would be happy. Could things get better with bigger bucks? Yes, it would mean some people would have to possibly wait and shoot a doe if they wanted meat. I would much rather see the little guys go, and more does get shot, than end up with overpopulation and have to go to EAB in my zone.

[ntrider]

yeah i know what everyone is saying...it would be nice to see more larger bucks, i was just kinda being sarcastic in a way that if everyone got trophys everyone would just have an average deer...

[deerminator]

My point was that Wisconsin doesn't have widespread antler point restrictions, do they? I don't believe so and it is held up as one of the, if not THEE state to go when you're looking to tag a monster. The key to the state's success is lots of great habitat, climate, a booming deer population and some would say, regulations that encourage hunters to take does.

The better the first three are - habitat, climate and deer population - the more big bucks you're going to have from the sheer standpoint of more bucks being allowed to grow larger. The rolling hills and woodlands woven into ag land in Wisconsin offers more cover than the miles and miles of flag ag land in Minnesota. The milder winters throughout Wisconsin are easier than the harsh winters of northern-most Minnesota. And more deer means more bucks that are able to hide out from hunters and last the winter.

Granted more deer are taken by more Wisconsin hunters but it works out proportiontely in the end since there are more deer there than in Minnesota.

Habitat and climate plus a booming deer population is going to beat APRs every time in my books in terms of producing bigger bucks consistently.

Also, more big bucks doesn't mean everyone is going to get one or that everyone is going to get one overnight. That's why its called hunting.

[Bear55]

Lets not sell our habitat short to WI, sure they might have an advantage but the major difference between us is they let their deer get older. Not too long ago the deer population was booming, guys were seeing and shooting a lot of deer and our habitat was holding up just fine, even in the far north. I saw many nice mature bucks taken up north, even with so called poor habitat we can produce 125-170 class deer, we just have to let them get old.

You can make 100 excuses why WI is better but it really comes down to the hunters, we shoot a lot of young bucks, they let them grow. It really depends on the hunters mentality, like trigger said the younger generations are very open to QDM and new ideas.

[james_walleye]

Land access is a huge issue as far as hunter recruitment and retention. Having more large deer will make that even more difficult.

Here in the SE land access is tough because its the only way for people to ensure the little bucks running around their land won't get shot. I know alot of landowners who have 1 or 2 guys hunt with them and they practice QDM and they won't let other people on their land because they don't want them shooting the little bucks. They ensure by doing this that the 1 1/2 year olds get to 2 1/2.

Along those same lines i think if you talk to anyone who hunts IA and MN they will tell you that there are more big deer in IA. I have multiple friends who have gone and gotten permission to hunt NE IA and they have said its easier to get permission to bowhunt NE IA than SE MN. So will more big bucks really translate into more restricted access?

[jabug]

to all you think there should be a point restriction. what about the person who just doesn't have an area that produces nice eight pont racks. that person can't tell if it is an basket eight or six. is it not a little unfair to a person in an area like this to not be alowed to shoot a buck. one guys baskets is another mans trophy. then you have the issue of theres a nice eight and bang it is down just to find out a tine is broke and all of a sudden you have a nice heavy illegal seven pointer. you leave it lay so you don't get caught. that is a nice waste. and yes it does happen. shot more the one myself that was a nice heavy deer swore it was eight or bigger and then find a broken tine.

evryone is so quick to jump onto the yeah lets get bigger bucks band wagon. in some areas you could let them grow for 10 years and it will never be that trophy. if one is so caught up on getting that big buck then manage the land you have the way you want and leaves those who choose to shoot smaller bucks alone.

we don't need more forced on us rules to ruin the fun of hunting. we have enough.

LET THOSE WHO HUNT DECIDE WHAT THEY WANT TO SHOOT.

i am sure there are more then a few things that people in favor of this do that they don't want me to tell them no you have to do it this way.

tropy deer are out there you just need to use your hunting skills a little more. i hunt an area that is highly preasured and alot of small bucks are shot. with time and patience and scouting i am still able to tag a 130 or bigger buck most every year.

the bottom line is if hunter A wants to pass on a six and hunter B thinks it is a nice buck and shoots it more power to him. he has his personnally trophy and meat for the freezer. he should have that choice.

antler restriction will just get you small bucks shot and left lay instead of feeding someone. if yuo want to let them walk your choice. if you want to shoot should be your choice to.

just my 2 cents

[zzammon]

Agreed jabug.

[lakevet]

Which of the top trophy states already have APR's ? If so how long have they had it? Or is it more in states that have such low potential/ so far down in the record books they need any means possible to try to increase antler size? Just curious.

lakevet

[Arctic]

Jabug, You just reaffirmed my point near the begining of this thread that it would be politically impossible to get APRs in this state, beyond the few that are currently in place in a few small state parks.

I would hope you don't "leave" any deer you shoot. That's illegal and unethical in any hunter's book.

[deerminator]

Lets not sell our habitat short to WI, sure they might have an advantage but the major difference between us is they let their deer get older. Not too long ago the deer population was booming, guys were seeing and shooting a lot of deer and our habitat was holding up just fine, even in the far north. I saw many nice mature bucks taken up north, even with so called poor habitat we can produce 125-170 class deer, we just have to let them get old.

You can make 100 excuses why WI is better but it really comes down to the hunters, we shoot a lot of young bucks, they let them grow. It really depends on the hunters mentality, like trigger said the younger generations are very open to QDM and new ideas.

I'm not saying Wisconsin is so much better than Minnesota in terms of great habitat. I'm just saying there's more of it there, just like there's more deer there, and those are facts. I wonder if the reason Wisconsin hunters show more restraint is they know they'll see several bucks and can choose to hold out for a big 14 point versus a nice 8 point. So it comes back to population and the fact that there's a lot of deer thriving in habitat that can support them and then some. Compare that to the guy in a lottery area here who's lucky to see that nice 8 point once during the season and it's a done deal for him. So for me, it all comes down to a healthy population the land can support. Once you have that, then you can start becoming choosy toward what you want to shoot and that will happen with or without APRs. So why pass another law to make it happen.

[mabr]

WOW, I thought i had an opinion on this at the beginning now im not really sure. There are some great points made on here and its made me think big time.

Im in favor of APR for sure. I practice it, preach it to our gun season party of 5-6 every year. But with the ups and downs Ive seen In the area I gun hunt (273) I can understand some peoples concerns in doing APR. It was a tough season for our party only 2 deer taken and No mature deer seen. This is in an area with all the food and habitat a deer could ever want. Im fortunate, I hunt several areas throughout the state with Bow, Gun and Muzzleloader, so taken deer during gun season is not a Issue with me. But for the 4 guys that hunt with us only during the gun season. If they dont think there is going to be a chance of harvesting "A" deer there not gonna be going anymore. So we allow them to takes does,But if we start shooting all our does, how long is the herd going to last? I personally think our liberal doe harvest for so long, and coyotes are what is hurting my area (273) right now. But thats another issue, not APR debate

This is just one zone within this state. To try and manage the whole state? I'm seeing the dificulties the DNR faces.

I do hope they come up with something though. It is dishearting to know we have the genetics to grow huge deer just like Iowa, Wisc,Ohio, Kansas etc etc. but dont see the same amount of trophys they do. Yes we have them, Ive seen them and I love hunting MN. BUT go to Iowa during November and compare sightings. It makes the 3 year wait to draw a nonres tag worth it.

[ntrider]

Jabug, You just reaffirmed my point near the begining of this thread that it would be politically impossible to get APRs in this state, beyond the few that are currently in place in a few small state parks.

I would hope you don't "leave" any deer you shoot. That's illegal and unethical in any hunter's book.

sorry if i read this wrong but i don't think Jabug let a deer lay...i think the point was that it does happen where you think its an 8 and then one is broke off...thank goodness for no APR in this case or else it would of been illegal...next yr i am just gonna go deer hunting...

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I have to chime in on the referrences to WI hunters passing on the "small" bucks. Where does that logic come from? Do you have any solid proof that they all have that mentality?

I drove through a big chunk of Northern WI the Sunday of their opener this season and saw a lot of deer on peoples rigs. The majority of them were does and "small" bucks. Lots of spikes, forks and basket 5/6's. In fact the only "mature" bucks I saw on peoples vehicles this year were in my travels up and down the north shore of Laske Superior.

I just can't imagine that the mentailty over there is that much different the the mentality of Minnesotans. I think the vast majority of hunters like big racks, but don't want legislation telling them what they can and can't harvest.

[picksbigwagon]

I just can't imagine that the mentailty over there is that much different the the mentality of Minnesotans. I think the vast majority of hunters like big racks, but don't want legislation telling them what they can and can't harvest.

I completely agree!

[Bear55]

I never said WI hunters don't shoot small bucks. People have to look past their section and county lines to see the bigger picture. WI harvest a great many more mature bucks than us, its really not even close. Its not because of habitat, nutrition, or genetics, it is because more of their bucks are allowed to get to an older age class. I speak of mentality I am looking at the big picture, overall WI has more of a QDM mentality than us and it is easy to see.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I just can't agree with that. That's a BIG blanket assumption on your part, IMO.

[Heartman]

Would someone define APR for me? What do the letters stand for?

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Antler Point Restrictions