Minn. could see antler-point restrictions in 2010

[buckhunter21]

From what I have heard youths will be allowed to still shoot any deer. And lets not forget that all of these 1.5 year old deer that you have to let go the first year are all still going to be there next year with maybe a few that die from other causes.

Ok these are just some number i pulled out of my head but lets say we have 1000 1.5 years olds, 500 2.5 years, 250 3.5 years, and 250 4.5+ year olds for a total of 2000 deer if my math is correct. Lets say that half of all the deer 2.5+ are killed and none of the yearlings, next year we have 1000 new 1.5 year olds, 1250 2.5 years, 375 3.5 year, and 375 4.5+ years. Now we have 3000 bucks total, thats 1000 more than last year! and not only are there more but there are more mature deer. So saying it will take away opportunities to shoot a buck just isnt true. Sure maybe you will have to suffer for one whole year but after that all those deer are still gonna be there only older and bigger. The next year the cycle will continue, not gonna do anymore math but theres gonna be even more older deer and still gonna be those yearlings to replace the deer that were killed the year before.

[james_walleye]

Thats why the MO approval percentage went from 40 to 90% in 3 years.

[ARROW 1]

[Note from admin: Please read forum policy before posting again. Thank you.]

(do a search for Hill view management)

QDM WORKS!!!!!

Read the mission statement then look at the pictures WOW!

With more bucks running around they do more breeding which means more deer bucks and does. WIN WIN. So if you don't care about the rack apply for a doe permit and shot only a doe. The DNR will have to award more doe permits because there will be plenty of them running around.

I pass on many small bucks during the bow season and the last two years I have taken does. Which is ok with me I like the meat. But Im both a trophy and meat hunter. I would like more to show for my many hours in the tree. I have two on the wall and still have room for more

Bring on AR or at least push out the season past the rut. Fishing opener and bass opener is after the spawn. Why not give deer the same respect.

[Pickelfarmer]

[Pickelfarmer]

Well pickel if you've read anything about the DNR they don't manage our deer herd for trophies meaning the reason AR are coming up is because they think biologically something needs to be done, not because myself or anyone else on this site wants something done.

Just because a single deer is healthy doesnt mean a herd is healthy. Any wildlife biologist will tell you that when 90% of the buck harvest is yearlings that something is seriously wrong with the age structure of the bucks within the herd.

I don't think that 90% of the buck harvest is yearlings. Who says that??? No Really who says that??? Show us proof!!!! You want to throw out numbers then prove it.. I'm really tired of all the numbers. I hunt deer and shoot what I can. If it makes you unhappy then prove why I should change my hunting style.. My thought is that when you kill anything for Pleasure YOU ARE WRONG.. Maybe you guys that have the "Trophy mentality" should talk to your grandfathers a little. To hunt for fun of Killing the biggest is a joke, and its sad. That in my mind is not sportsmenship and you should be ashamed of yourself.

[tednugefan]

i like your style Pickelfarmer

[vister]

heres a thought. why not switch the muzzleloader and rifle seasons around. since MN is pretty much the only state that allows rifle hunting during the rut. I would sure think that this would introduce much less hunting pressure during the breeding season. afterall, we can't fish till certain times of the year to allow the bigger, breeder fish to spawn.

by switching the seasons, i bet a lot fewer bucks of all ages would be taken out. If the seasons were switched, then we wouldn't need AR

I'll combat the argument right now. those who are against AR, this should be just fine for you. you would still get to shoot whatever you wanted to. just later in the year. however, those who wanted to hunt during the rut still can. afterall, the rut is what makes almost all bucks vulnerable to harvest. if you don't care what sexed deer you shoot, then why would this pose a problem?

if you can't hunt during the rut, why get mad? afterall, the anti AR arguements make it clear the antis don't care if they shoot a buck of size or not. the only deer activity that slows after the rut is bucks. usually just the mature ones, as they have spent all their energy breeding and fighting. does keep on doing their same thing.

If you disagree with this, then deep down you too are part trophy hunter, like it or not!

[Musky Buck]

Have talked to my grandfather's and 25 years ago they said don't shoot little bucks. Time to save a few bucks, some areas are almost void of bucks after opening weekend because the squirts get gunned down or driven out and gunned down at least in my area. The breeding stock is mostly 1 1/2 year olds in that area so what's the difference if it's a spike or a Y, some day with age they'd be a somebody.

[Bear55]

Bear- have you talked to your neighbors??? have you tried to persuede them to your way of thinking??? is it just one group or all of your neighbors????

James- I've seen that glow, along with the eyes getting as big as pieplates, shaky hands and heavy breathing etc. I sat with both of my boys their first season hunting and witnessed their first deer. Both deer were what you guys call "scrubs". They were the two most beautiful deer I have ever seen. My boys are both into hunting, but with other activities and interests. I'm not sure they'd be so interested if they hadn't had that initial success.

PEAT I have been talking to them for years. Some of them are interested but they are afraid if they pass up a buck the next guy will get it, others don't want to give it a second thought and they want to shoot as many deer as they see.

[Bear55]

I guess in my neck of the woods ( One of the most popular places to hunt for BIG bucks) I will challenge you to find a 2 year old 8 pointer...I really wonder where you guys get your age Vrs points info??? I think your full of bull. You guys look at a buck and say,"Oh thats a 2 1/2 year old buck". Or "Theres a 12 point. Must be a 4 year old". Its all bull. You don't know you just say that. you have no idea what that deers genetics or nutration is.. BULL, all of it and your trying to change a season to match it???? I would be willing to bet most on here wouldn't be able to tell the age of alot of the deer in there area(including me), but I bet they still would throw out a number just to look good..

Pickelfarmer it is fairly easy to identify 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks by their body and rack size, sure their might be a genetic freak in there but I'd say most of your 1.5 year old are going to be your spikes, forks, small six's, in general your 2.5's are going to be basket 6, 8, or 10's. After they reach 3.5 everything gets a little cloudy and I don't think anyone can consistantly nail the age of a buck.

[PEATMOSS]

So if you can't convince them, force them?

[Pickelfarmer]

Have talked to my grandfather's and 25 years ago they said don't shoot little bucks. Time to save a few bucks, some areas are almost void of bucks after opening weekend because the squirts get gunned down or driven out and gunned down at least in my area. The breeding stock is mostly 1 1/2 year olds in that area so what's the difference if it's a spike or a Y, some day with age they'd be a somebody.

Not sure about what area you and Grandpa hunt in but 25 years ago in my area it was lottery doe tags and over the counter bucks. I'm not saying that hunters should go out and shoot a small buck.. I'm just saying that to make it against the law to do so is not right in my eyes.

[candiru]

I wish the QDM guys would give it time to let things work themselves out and give people time to embrace it on their own. It takes time to change attitudes. Releasing of large walleyes and muskies voluntarily didn't happen overnight. QDM is a relativly new concept. At least in MN. For some reason it appears that many QDM advocates are in some kind of crisis mode. I want my big bucks and I want them now.

If you want to use the slot limit analogy and follow some outdoor reporting it appears that many can't measure a walleye properly when they have it in their hand. I don't want to have to worry about counting points on a moving animal, during low-light, and in the woods. I want to enjoy my deer hunting and that is about much more than how much bone is on an animals head.

If you exmept young and old hunters I believe the DNR is opening themselves up to discrimination complaints. Isn't our Gov't. supposed to treat everyone the same? We would also be placing AR on people that may be laid off or had their hours reduced in today's economy. Maybe the chance at bringing home some meat can justify the expense of getting away from it all and spending some time outdoors.

[PEATMOSS]

I read thru the entire Hillview Management HSOforum. I did not find one item about lobbying or forcing their practices on anyone else.

All I gathered is that this is a group of free men in a free country acting in accordance with their own values, without government regulation, assistance or interference. What a concept. This just seems so doggone......AMERICAN.(cue Lee Greenwood music)

[candiru]

We would also add to the list of things our depleted conservation officer force would have to do. While still having to worry about all the stuff they do now, which is plenty. They would have to be looking at deer and deciding - is that a point or isn't it? and responding to calls of folks possesing undersize deer or deer being shot and left. I would rather have them going after baiters, trespassers, road shooters, shiners..........etc.........

[Musky Buck]

I don't care what other states have going but it makes some sense that they are enjoying having the chance at a mature buck every year because when you have 1 buck tag you will be more selective and it's AR without the name and it's not just gunning down decent sized deer because you have enough tags for them whatever they are. Aging deer in OT county is simple for 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year olds, anyone's guess after that but you can put a large % of the harvest at those 2 age levels because our age structure is a mess in some areas. For what is it like 28 dollars some guys can shoot as many bucks as tags allow, that isn't right anymore and it keeps those slaughtering attitudes in the stand for 9 days instead of 2 or 4 or multizone 6 days.

[candiru]

Good for the Hillsview management people. They went and did something instead of just complain to Gov't. Unlike some of the groups in the SE. I haven't heard of them trying to use gov't to impose their standards on others.

I do not hunt in TV land where deer are calmly feeding in a manicured food plot, or at a timed feeder, I am in a heated box-blind with a solid rest to shoot from and all the time in the world to judge the deer and take the shot.

[candiru]

Can you tell me what state it is where everyone has a chance at a mature buck every year?

[Bear55]

So if you can't convince them, force them?

What if Minnesota never started enforcing slot limits? How many less walleyes would be swimming around right now?

Someone mentioned in another thread that when polled 70-80% of hunters in Minnesota want to see bigger bucks. Many of these people don't have the resources, time, neighbor cooperation to let the small bucks go to grow the larger deer they want to see so they feel they have to shoot the first buck they see to get a deer. Its a vicious cycle that repeats itself every year.

Not everyone is happy with our deer hunting and why should they be, this state is certainly below average when it comes to deer hunting in the midwest, it has the potential to be so much more than what it is. Many of us realize that (probably more than many of you think) and we will do what it takes to improve hunting. Maybe some day you will thank us, maybe not but I don't see too many people complaining about the hunting in Iowa, Wisconsin, and Illinois.

[Boosey]

Sweet. I just took some time to read these posts. I am 100% for it. As an avid bowhunter and a recreational rifle hunter, I truely believe many MN laws are backwards. I won't re-hash those details as they have been discussed many times on this forum. I am however hunting Missouri for the first time this fall because of what they are doing in that state with Anter Point restictions. It started out in a few counties and very quickly gained acceptance and is now in about 80% of the state. Full support is sweeping the state (or a least willingness to try something new). I'm excited for the future of my home state of MN.

[Getanet]

I've grown tired of any poll figures about what percent of hunters in Minnesota want to see bigger bucks. Anytime you ask people if they'd like to see a favorable outcome you're going to get a high response. You can't correlate that to mean they support what it takes to get there.

If every buck in MN looked like Bullwinkle you could still ask hunters if they'd prefer to see bigger bucks and you'd get the vast majority saying yes.

I'd like to see the statistics on a follow-up question of if that 70-80% approval of AR. That would be a statistic with some relevance.

[candiru]

I hear the Wis. guys complaining alot. At some advisery meetings recently EAB was given a big thumbs down.

The other states don't have 500,000 deer hunters to try to please, or harsh deer killing winters. I definitly have heard complaing from those other states about the $$$$ that land is getting leased for in the quest for those big bucks.

Slot limits are in place to protect breeding females and keep the walleye population up in popular lakes. You have to carry a rule book with you and precise fish measuring equipment. There are those of us that feel it detracts from the enjoyment of fishing. I hate trying to spear on slot lakes. Fortunatly not all lakes have slots. When you mess with deer hunting many get the feeling that you are messing with the winter meat supply.

[Musky Buck]

That would be any state meaning just the hunters are more selective without party hunting which gives the future mature bucks, the young stock a chance to get mature. Here it's a lot of shoot first look second, we should look first and shoot second. My whole thing is this. Years ago this was in our hunting party to, but the reason is you had 2 days to rifle hunt. Then multi-zone came into play and you had 6 days and then all-season which allowed muzzy's after rifle. Now the season is 9 days + you can muzzleload for 16 days which is scopeless rifle hunting basically. Our party that likes venison as much as anybody went to antlerless or mature buck only in about 1995. We still have plenty of meat to go around. Our crew gets just as much satisfaction as we used to and now our meat pole looks a lot like it did in the 80's. I wish they could poll the hunters maybe by doe permit zone to see what the wish is. I like the guys that feel enough will never be enough. Of course there's a limit. What's your fear that you won't be able to drag bigger bucks out from where you hunt. We practice go-grow and I still have relatives that haven't seen a decent buck in many years now and at the current system they maybe never will again and here we get an extra 7 days of rifle compared to the past, I said that's just 7 more days of young bucks getting pounded. I told all my relatives and there are 23 in our party to start bow hunting, that's their best chance to get a mature buck. They just wish we could go back to 2 days again, times were better then and a more even age structure.

[candiru]

I know where I hunt the expanded seasons and multi-season hunting has taken down the whole population to where you are lucky to draw for a doe permit. I don't know if it is going to get better until the multi-season hunting is restricted.

In MN there is a lot of hunting on small plots of land. You got you're stand and that is about it. You sit there and if nothing comes by you are S.O.L. In the other states the land is more open and access to private land is much easier. If you have a tag you can go after a deer and not just wait for it to come to you, not knowing if there is even one around.

[Getanet]

Only speaking for myself, but I fear AR will be just the beginning, not the end. I don't see us trying it for a few years, and if it doesn't work ending it. Instead I fear it will only lead to more restrictions. No party hunting, no hunting during the rut, a 2-day hunt, etc.

I also don't think we should poll hunters and act according to their wishes. I want wildlife experts making those decisions - but with very transparent and publicly available information on what they are seeing and the rationale for the decisions. Plus input from hunters in a public forum before any decisions are made.

Despite what we think, very few of us are wildlife experts and most of us have no idea what we're talking about.