law of the land

[wildernessbob2063]

As I was reading this post (what timing!) I received a call from a neighbor who lives 2+ miles away wanting to track a "small doe" through our place he shot this morning. I give him credit for calling but opted to not let him in since we are hunting this afternoon. As stated before, if someone shoots a deer, it runs 2+ miles through severl 80 acre fields, a 40 acre wood lot, it was not a killing shot and probably will not die, if at all, anytime soon. ...At least he called though. I've never met many rifle hunters who have the decency to do that! Hopefully we will find it tonight for him.

[tealitup]

If you find the doe - you will call your neighbor and give it to him... right?

[MikeYager - Suzuki]

Pac

[BobT]

Wow! Hardnosed attitude. I agree with you, Mike.

I can just imagine how understanding Suzuki would feel if the situation was reversed.

Bob

[Basseyes]

First off lack of shooting and knowing your gun is a huge issue. Many shoot their rifle at most 6 times a year. Usually 4 of those are at deer that are at a bad angles and not positioned right for a good shot. But that's hunting.

I know my rifle and have no problem with shooting deer/elk in the head. If you can shoot a squirrel in the head with a .22 at 30 yards why not a deer with a .270 at a distance you are comfortable shooting at and hitting a baseball? Responsible shooting in the vitals is all up to the individual. Some people are just better shots than others. No matter how hard some try a pie plate at fifty yards is the extent of their accuracy. Others can routinely hit grapefruits at 300 yards with little effort.

I've shot deer and elk in the head but wouldn't suggest it unless you've put a lot of rounds through your gun and know it well. It's a clean efficient way to end an animal. Just as I wouldn't suggest most average MN shooters shoot a deer past 175 yards.

No matter good shooters make bad shots in the heat of the moment.

Killing or fatal shot whatever you want to call it most shots will be fatal to a deer eventually and none of us have studied it enough to make more than an educated guess at a deer's life span after getting hit by a bullet.

There's a bigger picture here. The ethics of making a good shot, the responsibility of trailing a bad one. The trailing of a wounded deer on private ground that is not yours with out a gun and missing a chance at ethically and quickly as possible killing the animal.

There's no way I could take credit for shooting a world record buck or even a fawn that already had a bullet hole in it and a hunter on it's trail. I understand the killing shot vs first blood but would feel no pride knowing that the deer would have not come my direction was it not for that first shot. Agree that tagging something I did not make a clean un aided kill on would have no satisfaction and I would only put my tag on it if it wasn't being trailed. Plus the animal has been through a tremendous amount of stress and more than likely the meat is going to be skunky and tainted.

My question is if you kill a deer that had a decent hit on it and some one is trailing it do you take any pride in putting your tag on it and saying "ya I got my deer"? That's the type of guys I don't hunt with. They'd tag the deer if they had to but that wouldn't be their first choice.

Much of it also depends on the guys involved. You can size up the guy doing the trailing a lot easier than he can size you up if you're in a stand on your property. If he's on my land with a gun without permission and starts getting mouthy it might be more a stance on principal to not let him keep the deer if I've made a killing shot. If he comes up trailing the deer and is right off the bat decent about it I'd help him gut it right were it died to help aid in cooling the already stressed muscle tissue. Then I'd get a wheeler out and give him a ride back to were he needed to go. I shot a deer over a gut pile last year and see no reason not to gut the deer right on the spot. Who knows this guy could have a pheasant field, duck slough or goose field that all of a sudden opened up next fall.

Bitterness and lack of compassion for others is a long winding path to unhappiness.

[fishandshroom]

Kill shot

[bigbucks]

I'm in the camp of give it to the orginal shooter if they want it unless it hadd nothing more than a flesh wound & even then in most cases I would say have at it. I would personally expect someone to trail a wounded deer with a firearm so they could finish it off if they jump it. In the part of the country we hunt there's a lot of hunters in a small area. People hunt close to fences. Many times I've sat where there were 2-3 hunters from other parties & 1-2 from my own within 150 yards. The chance of a wounded deer going by one of them is quite good. I can only think of a few cases when it's happened, but not many.

[TNFL]

TTT- this is a good read for anyone trying to get the on-line certification. As it is a required essay question to answer. Nice though, a question with no hard true answer

[Musky Buck]

I'm with neighbor guy and you better get permission before following one on someones land, my cousin is lucky to be alive, 1st year hunting without pa he wounded one, tracked it onto the neighbors without asking, and he was watching the bloodtrail/tracks when it was just 50 yards ahead and kaboom, the neighbor shot it and here's my cousin straight in line with it just below a little hill, he could've took one in the melon, the neighbors with posted land didn't expect to see someone where they shouldn't be and now that 1 incident has ruined what neighborly relationship they had.

[Musky Buck]

Nice theory Basseyes and I agree, but once a deer comes out a lot of hunters with limited range simply are firing anyway. I've polished off maybe 5 wounded deer in my life and at least 4 of them I'm sure the neighbors were doing drives. I didn't keep any of the 5, but I drug them to the fence and said there you go, worst part was I had to flag someone down so they knew they even hit it. It's the wild west in some areas.

[InTheNorthwoods]

So for those people that firmly believe it is the "killing shot", how do you determine the "killing shot"? Is it automatically the last person to shoot?

For example, if hunter A shoots a deer through the guts and tracks it too soon and pushes it to hunter B who shoots out the front two legs and the deer goes down due to the impact trauma, who gets the deer? The gut shot deer is a dead deer without being put down by hunter B - its just a matter of time, but conversely, the deer with only hunter B's shot, is likely not a dead deer without some form of follow up.

Personally, I think every situation is different, but I also think that stating the "killing shot" gets the deer is probably the hardest factor to determine when there are multiple wounds. In my opinion, I would let the first blood take the deer unless it is painfully obvious that the deer would have survived. Even then, I would probably have a hard time keeping the deer if the original hunter came down its trail out of respect to the hunter making the effort to find the deer. But then again, I don't hunt, and don't have any desire to hunt, where people are driving deer all over the countryside shooting at everything that comes by or on war zone public lands - i.e. places where these instances are more likely to occur.

[luckey]

I think each case has to go on it's own. Some are easy (guys trailing close behind an obviously mortally wounded deer. Goes to the guy who wounded it.) Or a deer goes by on three legs you kill it and later the who wounded it shows up. (goes to the guy who killed it. Also, anytime you kill a wounded deer and no one comes tracking (lack of blood etc) it's yours. However there is a larger amount of area inbetween. Basically it should go to the killer if there is little chance the person who wounded it would be able to recover it. And to the person who wounded it if there is a good chance he would recover it. I know this is not a clear as first hit gets it, but I have followed wounded deer for miles and never got another shot at it.

[RIPN LIPS]

i would say who ever makes the final kill shot it is his deer. we had this problem in wis. when some locals were trailing a wounded 13 pointer with no fatal shots in it at all. my buddy when out to his stand, turned around and shot it dead. the locals didn't think it was are deer until i advised them of the tresspassing laws, then they had a change of attitude. just remeber no deer is worth injury or wrecking your hunt theres plenty of deer out there. have a great season and be safe.

[harvey lee]

If I had a wounded deer walk by and finished it off and then the guy that shot it first came by, I would give it to him.

Its only a deer.

[InTheNorthwoods]

i would say who ever makes the final kill shot it is his deer. we had this problem in wis. when some locals were trailing a wounded 13 pointer with no fatal shots in it at all. my buddy when out to his stand, turned around and shot it dead. the locals didn't think it was are deer until i advised them of the tresspassing laws, then they had a change of attitude. just remeber no deer is worth injury or wrecking your hunt theres plenty of deer out there. have a great season and be safe.

But herein lies my point, how do you know it had no fatal shots in it at all? Did you do an autopsy? All you know is that it was not dead when your hunting party shot it. I am not saying that your party didn't make a great, instant kill, shot. I just think its very difficult to state with certainty that "x hunter" made the kill shot. I will revert to my gut shot example. A gut shot deer is a dead deer walking, but that said, it can take a while to expire - thus, any follow up shot or subsequent kill shot is just overkill in actuality (even though it may prevent it from being lost).

[Harmonica Bear]

10-4 harvey. I'm with you. That's exactly how I would play it, and I would think everyone in our party would do it the same way.

[RIPN LIPS]

i agree with you but if the second shooter drops that deer then its not suffering any longer. ie.. the kill shot. and yes i do check every deer i clean for what killed it. this info will suprise you. i've shot deer in the lungs and they flip right over and ive shot deer with the heart completely gone and have trailed them for several blocks.

[InTheNorthwoods]

i agree with you but if the second shooter drops that deer then its not suffering any longer. ie.. the kill shot. and yes i do check every deer i clean for what killed it. this info will suprise you. i've shot deer in the lungs and they flip right over and ive shot deer with the heart completely gone and have trailed them for several blocks.

I know what you are saying, and I am really only arguing theory, but again you point out that a blown out heart shot deer can go several blocks. If I were to shoot it through the guts and knock it over a couple hundred yards after you blew out the heart, I have neither made the initial killing shot or put it out of its misery (a heart shot deer is running on adrenaline and muscle memory and is dead on its feet) but I did knock the deer over with a lethal shot (guts). At that point, many would then argue over who made the heart shot and who made the gut shot. And without ballistic tests no one can be sure of who made the heart shot (what if my scope got bumped on the way in?). My point is, its really hard to make a determination of who made the killing shot.

For the record, I'm not trying to argue with you specifically. Just pointing out the difficulties of the "kill shot" gets the deer mentality.

[luckey]

All good points. It could be difficult to tell in some cases. I have to argue the point of a heart shot deer going blocks or a couple hundred yards. I have never seen or heard of this. 40 to 50 yards with a massive blood trail would be the norm. Gut shots leave enough to track but not much more.

[InTheNorthwoods]

All good points. It could be difficult to tell in some cases. I have to argue the point of a heart shot deer going blocks or a couple hundred yards. I have never seen or heard of this. 40 to 50 yards with a massive blood trail would be the norm. Gut shots leave enough to track but not much more.

Obviously a heart shot deer going more than 40-50 yards is not the norm, but it has happened (big deer will amaze you when they are going on adrenaline). Also, you are right, a gut shot deer will not leave much of a trail in most cases (especially with a gun shot deer) but that does not mean it won't be laying dead a couple hundred yards away if you give them time to bed down and expire. I have, unfortunately due to poor shots, found several gut shot deer within a few hundred yards dead after following faint trails many wouldn't have found, by giving the deer enough time.

Some times extreme examples are the best way of getting a point accrossed (I could have used a liver shot deer which can go hundreds of yards with a decent blood trail, or a high double lung that may have gone a few hundred yards). That said, my initial points remain the same.

[Wes Ellis]

many years ago my dad , grandpa, and i were hunting in a big woods , no roads but ours , its a mile long . someone shot a doe a mile north of us , ( our road comes from the south ) I herd my grandpa shoot one shot. 2 hours later i went to see what he shot and he said he killed a deer some one shot in the leg. I said where is it, he said it was the guy that first shot it. this was a low leg shot , the guy proubly wouldnt have got the deer. but thats the way we roll!!

[luckey]

Hey, if everyone is happy, so be it. It would be a rare feat to actually catch up to a deer with a leg shot off. Usually it would involve the right tracking conditions and a couple guys. One or two circle ahead and the other follow the trail.

InTheNorthWoods, I guess it's possible. My point is with enough experience, you can usually tell if the guy tracking (I say tracking because someone who shot at a deer, then hears a shot in the direction the deer, and then just goes there is not tracking) would have been able to recover the deer. That said, I'm sure there are cases that would be too close to call and then I just hope the two can come to some agreement.

[fr0sty]

I have not heard this before and am not an expert. This is what I found in the dnr reg booklet. Looks to me that if you are on foot with no dog, you can lawfully enter unposted land with your firearm to retrieve wounded game.

Exceptions

• A person on foot may, without permission, enter land that is not posted to retrieve a wounded animal that was lawfully shot, but may not remain on the land after being told to leave.

• A person on foot may, without permission, enter private land

without a firearm to retrieve a hunting dog. After retrieving the dog, the person must immediately leave the premises. This exception does not authorize the taking of the wild animal.

That being said, my policy would be to follow this suggestion from the same dnr handbook.

Hunters and trappers: Always respect private lands. Ask first before entering lands not posted as being open to hunting and trapping. You will improve relationships between landowners and recreationists, and you will have a more enjoyable time in the field.

The law does state that you can cross property lines to retrieve downed game, without your weapon.

[walleye101]

First killing shot. that kinda cuts out all the other b.s.

Rather than the second killing shot??????

Sorry, couldn't pass that one up!

[deerminator]

Ditto Harvey, its hunting not killing. So maybe you don't go home with the big buck someone shot first, perhaps several times and that would likely have eventually died. It's kind of amusing to get that worked up about it.