Wolves at my shack

[Duffman]

Quote:

Last week I only saw one moose track and maybe four deer tracks. usually, you see much much more.

Easy there, you are starting to sound like the walleye guys who say stuff like "We used to take home a limit every night until those dang muskies started eating them all".

With the yearly deer harvest totals being broken almost each consecutive fall, you are going to have a tough time convincing me and probably others that the wolves are eating up all the deer. Sure, the wolves might push the deer around and effect some local populations, but overall, they aren't doing squat to the overall population.

[SkunkedAgain]

Tedl - you did say that there were "too many wolves" and that they are attacking humans.

Croixflats is right that this can and always seems to get into a heated issue.

My true feeling is that we (humans) continually mess with mother nature and ignore the repercussions. Over the years we eliminated the wolves and cut down the forests so the deer population has blossomed.

There was a great show I watched a few weeks ago about Yellowstone. Among many things, they talked about the ecology of reintroducing the wolf and the unexpected benefits. I'm paraphrasing but essentially the reintroduction of wolves sent the elk higher into the mountains because they were now being preyed upon. The lack of grazing by elk at the lower altitudes allowed the vegetation and forests to grow back to where they used to be, which somehow brought back beavers, who then modified how the waters pooled and flowed through the land. All of this from bring back the wolf.

I agree that wolves can scare the heck out of you, but I disagree with trimming back their numbers. Nature will find the right balance for them - but more than likely human development and reduction of habitat will do that instead.

[shedantlerguy]

My cabin is just south of Brimson. During the 1995-96 years, I was lucky to see a deer. Everybody insisted that a season be put on wolves to control them and get our deer herd numbers back up. We never did have a season on them. What eventually happened to our deer herd? Exactly! I am getting my fill of bucks, again. Remember:

We don't like mother nature (bad winters) killing deer.

We don't like wolves killing deer.

We like when we kill deer.

That's it!

[Thorn]

My mother grew up in WY. There weren't to may wolves then, today more than the DNR really wishes to confirm. The count back in 1997 was 3000. Today in 2008 the population is still 3000. I have to laugh every time I try to find real population data.

But I have been doing some research and have found that most attacks and threats are merely shoveled under the rug. The State does have restitution for depredation upon livestock and most Cattlemen still find it difficult to obtain relief under such wolf killings. There's about 50/50 in confirmation and the ones that were confirmed, were from just wolves doing what they do best when killing livestock. Just waisting it as they have done before they became protected. So in reality nothing has changed for the better under their protection. They aren't useful in controlling deer, nor can they be domesticated...LOL.

[harvey lee]

The wolves have been here forever and they seem to control themselves. Better if man stays out of the picture and let nature take its course.

[Thorn]

Don't worry Harvey as long as you stay in that boat them little pretty fury cute puppies are harmles. These animals are not Salmon, controlling them is done best through hunting. Otherwise just keep on paying the man. Seems to be the norm in Minnesota for just about everything. Friggen animal right advocates have no regard in consequences on unchecked animals and should have never been a consideration to management practices in MN.

The livestock depredation from wolves is now 48% in MN.

The annual restitution and sharpshooter culling is well above $400,000 in total economic taxpayer loss anually just for wolf control!

So how is it that we should leave them alone and let nature take it's course when actually...you're payin someone to kill 'em?

-----------------------------

Maybe I'm off course...maybe not. This is a study done by L. David Mech a MN Senior Scientist that has studied MN wolves since the early 50's.

Concurrent with the increase in wolves and wolf range, the number of wolves killed for depredation control has increased dramatically from 6 in 1979 to 216 in 1997. Projections show that a conservative estimate of the number of wolves that may need to be killed for depredation control by 2005 might exceed 400/year (Mech 1998), a serious concern to wolf advocates and environmentalists (Anderson 1999).

[walleye101]

Excellent points Thorn, supported with some actual facts.

The point is the wolf population is being controlled to tollerable levels by depradation killing as well as the local 3S rule of shoot, shovel and shut up. So a magnificent animal is being treated like virmin. Wouldn't it be so much better if it were treated with the respect of any other big game animal where a hunter or trapper could legally harvest one and utilize it as a true trophy.

[Thorn]

Excellent points Thorn, supported with some actual facts.

The point is the wolf population is being controlled to tollerable levels by depradation killing as well as the local 3S rule of shoot, shovel and shut up. So a magnificent animal is being treated like virmin. Wouldn't it be so much better if it were treated with the respect of any other big game animal where a hunter or trapper could legally harvest one and utilize it as a true trophy.

Hunting is a necessity and a proven one at that. If it weren't, there again they wouldn't need to be killed. Keywords folks...

As far as treating them as vermin it's the MN DNR's fault. To many tree huggers and AR's step in the way as usual. It was very funny to watch the legislation about the AR's trying to get a bill signed to ban dove hunting too. Numbnuts

I've seen a few deer killed by wolves in the Chippewa Nat Forest and my wife and I have been fortunate enough to see a couple. It's part of nature. It hasn't detered me from still bagging a couple of deer there every year either.

So what constitutes something as being verminous?

I'll answer that, an animal thats population has reached a capacity beyond natural balance. It's now competing for un-natural habitat and easier food sources.

And then if it weren't allowed to get to that status then what would have happened? I'll answer that, a natural flow of management, instead we have wolves [yes they're a magneficent animal] acting verminous.

and as far as where MOM grew up...Thank God the news finally broke. At least there, the verminous elderado lopopis pupis can have it's support by Sportsmen. Can you imagine the funds being allocated to wolf habitat from hunters?...I just did.

May 30, 2008

Wyoming Trophy Wolf Hunt Planned For October

From the Sublette Examiner:

A total “harvest quota” of 25 trophy-game gray wolves, in a hunting season suggested to open Oct. 1 this year in northwest Wyoming, is a new element in this year’s Wyoming Game and Fish (G&F) annual release of proposed hunting season changes.

General licenses will cost $15 for Wyoming hunters, $150 for nonresident hunters.

May 30, 2008 in General | Permalink

[tealitup]

Deer on this land rarely see another group excpet for us. We have 200 ac. that is landlocked by Superior National forest. Its not from other hunters.

[vitalshot5]

tealit...your basing all of this on an hour 4 wheeler drive and a 20 minute walk?? How many deer did you expect to see in an hour and 20 minutes in the woods.....get real.....I think it would take more time than that to make an accurate observation.....you are only on 200 acres....deer and moose both move around....maybe they weren't in your area cause there is a better food source down the road....ridiculous!!!

[walleye101]

[quote name="Thorn

And then if it weren't allowed to get to that status then what would have happened? I'll answer that, a natural flow of management, instead we have wolves yes they're a magneficent animal acting verminous.

Thorn

The wolves are not "acting verminous", they are simply being wolves, and doing what wolves do.

My point was that the methods of taking wolves by depredation trapping, or worse the illegal taking by (shoot-shovel and shutup) is treating a magnificent animal like vermon.

A much more noble (in my opinin) method of controling the population within tollerable levels would be by a sport hunting and/or trapping seasons.

[tealitup]

tealit...your basing all of this on an hour 4 wheeler drive and a 20 minute walk?? How many deer did you expect to see in an hour and 20 minutes in the woods.....get real.....I think it would take more time than that to make an accurate observation.....you are only on 200 acres....deer and moose both move around....maybe they weren't in your area cause there is a better food source down the road....ridiculous!!!

Vital,

Thanks for your opinion - and maybe I should clarify. Our land is "locked" around superior national forest. There nothing around my shack for 20 miles or so.

From the family owning the property for 80+ years; seeing the effects of fire, drought, wind, rain and logging gives more then an educated guess.

There has always been moose and deer on the property; as well as wolves. The last three to five years there has been a change in the amount of prey vs. wolves. Three weeks ago we counted a pack of 12 on our 2 mile driveway.

This weekend I am going back up north to do some work. I will keep my camera on me

[walleye101]

Yessiree, sure as I'm a sittin here, 22 wolves, right there on the driveway.....

Who could doubt anything you say after that!

[tealitup]

THAT SHOULD BE 12..... I WILL EDIT -

[vitalshot5]

stirring the pot....thats all your posts.....just stiring the pot.

[tedl]

Why are wolves put on a pedestal, yet coyotes can be taken by any means even at night? Really what is the difference? I have both in my back yard. If you had mangy animals bedding down in your back yard spreading disease and coming very close to your wife or children with an aggressive demeanor, would you feel the same? Yesterday I had a coyote in the back yard at 1:30 pm that was missing hair and had a limp that I could not scare off. A few days ago I let the dog out and a timber wolf was about 25 yard away.

P.S. I live two blocks from the school!! This is not normal behavior for these animals.

[walleye101]

That's an easy one, Tedl

The difference is that timber wolves were nearly eliminated from most of the lower 48, except for a relatively small population in Northern MN. In contrast the coyote has florished over the same time period and now habitates places it was never seen before.

I don't think any reasonable sportsman/conservationist wanted to see the timber wolf totaly eradicated, and supported some protection, as we would with any other species reduced to these levels.

What is troubling is now that recovery has been successful they still remain on that "pedistal" you speak of in some peoples eyes. Rather than celebrate the successful recovery and restore them to some limited game status, extreme environmentalists insist on continued extreme protection.

It certainly causes one to question their true motive. Was recovery of the wolf population the real objective, or just an excuse to further restrict hunting? It seems that motive is better achieved by a species lingering in endangered status than a restored population.

That is one reason I advocate every chance I get against any illegal taking of protected wolves. Deer hunters and local residents practicing 3S, (shoot, shovel, shutup) may think it is smart, but it plays right into the protectionist hand. Significant undocumented illegal taking may be the most significant source of wolf mortality, and is helping to stabalize current population levels. Protectionists point to a "natural stabilized" population to argue that there is no justification for regulated sport hunting to manage the wolf population.

[tednugefan]

the road that my cabin is on in brimson had the black wolf that would come out to the road when a car would drive by and chase it.

[Brownie77]

Also yotes can be trapped hard and never be trapped or hunted out. Guys out west will take 1000 yotes form the smae area every year with no sign that the yote population is being harmed.

[D.Boedigheimer]

If there is sustainable population and lots of public interest in lawfully harvesting them, Why not!! The minute you do that you are going to see the formation of groups dedicated to wolf-hunting and conservation. Just like every game species. It seems to me that once you allow the public to take an active role in any game species management you immediately see a skyrocketing level of appreciation. I am personally not going to fight for something I don't value or have no hopes of ever possessing. And gosh darn-it, they are beautiful, let me make a jacket out of them!!

[Early Riser]

The amount of wolf sign at any one point in time, in any particular area doesn't mean they will be there come deer season. We have noticed that the packs move a lot within a 30-50 square mile area. If you are hunting and happen to come accross a place where they have been ranging, their sign will be everywhere. When you are very fortunate you will see one or more of them during your hunt.

I have also noticed that the deer move around a lot, being pushed as they are by the wolves. I would imagine that the recent winter conditions favoring a lot of deer up north, have also favored more wolves. That cycle will likely change again as soon as we get into a different wheather pattern that causes the deer to yard up winter after winter for a number of years. During that time the snow will be very deep, and in March there will be an icy crust on top of that snow at night. The wolves can run on top and deer will break-through allowing easy pickings for the wolves. We had winter like this 1995/1996, but it was followed by a mild winter the next year, and the deer rebounded quickly. Once we get back to back winters like this again the deer population will go down, followed by a decrease in the wolf population.

Speaking of wolves trailing, checking out dogs, etc., I've got a few stories to share. When we lived and raised our three children within the Grand Portage state forest one of us was always in proximity to where they were playing in our yard and woods, especially when they were very small - not in a paranoid way, but mindful nontheless.

There was one time when my brother Joe and I doubled back on our trail while hunting only to catch a glimpse of a wolf moving quickly off to the side. It was trailing in our tracks within about 30 yards.

Another time my wife and I watched a pair of wolves come into our yard within 30 feet of our living room window while drinking coffee in the morning. We also watched as our dog (chesapeak/lab mix) stood her ground right next to the house, silently, with her hair on end until they passed. I was ready to jump up and out the door if she started moving toward them, but that was a smart dog that would bark and chase bear, or any other critter that came into our yard, but knew enough to not challenge the wolves.

One of my hunting buddies had a wolf come in during deer season and sit down on the ground, look up at him in his stand and start to howl! That was an awesome experience for him that he loves to recall. That wolf sat there after letting out a few howls and watched him for several minutes before wandering down the deer trail. We hear them howl all the time during deer season which allowes us to determine roughly where they are located.

One more; our neighbor was walking with her two smaller dogs down the old logging road and when she turned back she saw two wolves standing in the trail. After she had passed the area where they were standing, she noticed that at least two wolves were paralleling her just off the trail the whole way down to the road (about a mile). She was a bit un-nerved by this. She not only felt personally threatened, but she feared greatly for her dogs that were of the type that would chase and bark at any movement. As the wolf population grows there will be more encounters such as these, being the opportunistic and dominant animals they are. They are smart, which means they are also curious and do like to check things out a bit it seems.

Everytime I find their sign, see them or hear them, I always stop and think about what it means to be priviledged enough to live in an area that affords us the opportunity to share the woods with them. They need big woods and a lot of prey, and we have both, which is good.

[walleye101]

I also share an appreciation and respect for wolves, and am glad they are still a part of our wilderness areas. That said, one of the things that makes them special is that they are, or should be rather rare in occurance. When they become over abundant and conflicts increase between people, pets, livestock, and wolves the luster kind of wears off.

The situations you describe were all close encounters with positive outcomes. Those who have experianced different outcomes have a considerably different perspective on wolf encounters.

[Early Riser]

Walleye101, Do you know of any specific incidents of bad outcomes? I have heard bits and pieces of stories from Canada and Alaska, but the information seems a bit scant and nothing ever seems to be substantiated.

I know of several specific incidents of wolves attacking and sometimes killing people's dogs in Hovland and Grand Portage.

Here is another story I just recalled of an encounter that a friend of mine had who lives just a bit west of Grand Marais off the Pike Lake road; as he was working under his truck he noticed the blur of motion as one of his free range chickens was snatched by a wolf about 15 feet from his head. It never stopped, and was out of the yard with the chicken within seconds.

[walleye101]

There was an article in outdoor news a few months back that described an incident where a wolf pack attacked a pack of bear hounds while the hunters waded in and tried to drive them off with sticks. A pretty graphic and disturbing story.

That article gave some statistics on the number of hounds killed in Wisconsin and Michigan in recent years. I cannot recall the exact number but it was alarming. Certainly not an isolated incident.

I have also heard first hand from a hound man in Ontario that just lost two good beagles to wolves last week while running snowshoe hare. I know when I am running my hounds and things go quiet for a while the anxiety level rises. The more wolves, the more close encounters, which will eventually result in more bad outcomes.

I have no problem with maintaining a reasonable density of wolves in their prime range. But how many is enough and how far do they need to expand before the advocates are satisfied?

[delcecchi]

"how far do they need to expand before the advocates are satisfied?"

If I read the most recent federal court decision correctly, it is until they have repopulated their "historical range" which probably includes the twin cities. :-)

See the bottom map at http://www.fws.gov/midwest/WOLF/population/range.htm

apparently most of the country except for coastal California and the SE US.