New deer calibers

[lient]

What do you guys think about the proposed at least .22 caliber centerfire for deer?

[fisherking01]

For an experienced, patient hunter they are fine, just not too many of them out on the regular season. They are light, too light for hunters placing their bullets outside the boilerroom. I don't see any reason to change what we have now for legal calibers. Brent

[anyfishwilldo]

I would really enjoy using my 22-250. I think a 22 lr is not enough though.

[lient]

A 22 lr would not be able to be used anyway as it is a rimfire not a centerfire.

[fisherking01]

Right on rimfire, the .22s considered are primarily the 22-250, .222, and .223 centerfires. Pretty light lead, very lethal for experienced placement, not great for a lot of minnesota conditions. In my opinion.

[cribbageboy]

I deffinitly don't agree with it. I understand that they are trying to get young hunters into the sport of deer hunting, but do we really need MORE wounded deer? There are plenty of other calibers that a young-one can get used to, and it just wouldn't seem right to see someone hunting a 150+lbs animal with a piece of lead smaller than my fingernail. Just my two cents.

[BigWadeS]

 Originally Posted By: fisherking01

Right on rimfire, the .22s considered are primarily the 22-250, .222, and .223 centerfires. Pretty light lead, very lethal for experienced placement, not great for a lot of minnesota conditions. In my opinion.

I agree probably not the "Best" option out there, but they are still an effective weapon. No different then saying an arrow creates more wounded deer...IMHO

[TrophyEyes]

For me I don't think it should be allowed. Sure it will kill the deer, but the exit hole is smaller, tracking is more difficult and the experienced patient hunters are less and less evident to me. This isn't Texas where you can lay out some corn and wait for them to walk into pre-cut roads and take 45 minutes to place your shot. In my opinion and the majority of Minnesota hunting that I do on Public ground (big woods) you have anywhere from 1-5 minutes to decide to shoot. Often times you may need to pick a small window to shoot. If I count the number of deer that I shot with my 7mm, 12ga. or 45 cal muzzleloader that would not have made those shots with a .22cal, from wind, angle, brush, or whatever. I just don't think it is enough knock down to be fair to the animal. Just my opinion.

[peder]

With the right bullet the .22 centerfires work fine. The problems is almost all factory loads use bullets made for varmint hunting and will not reach the vitals on a deer sized animal.

[big drift]

An amazing thing with .22 centerfires, they have been used for years in many states with great effect on thin skinned deer.

They deliver enough energy, fast enough, and with less recoil much more accurately then say the 7mm calibers.

As it was said before use a quality bullet for teh round anh you will have no issues.

Considering the the US M16 and M4 are used with great effect on man sized targets wearing body armor nothing is gonna slow it down. Personally I plan on trying it out on Nodak this fall using TSX or Hornady Interlocks plenty of penetration and the wound channel is awesome add the hydrostatic shock and you have a dead deer.

Using a varmint bullet on deer is unethical IMO as it is designed to explode on impact and for a pass thru with a small exit hole it is an indication of using a FMJ or solid that pencils rather then expands neither of which are acceptable for deer hunting.

Again JMO...

[tealitup]

Except the M16 was designed to wound first - if you wound a person it takes two to carry them out.

[big drift]

Correction the M16 bullett was designed to wound. And there is the issue the bullett construction.

Personally I would recommend a bullett of no less then 52 grains. I would recommend that shots are kept under 300 yards.

I would recommend only shooting for the vitals on a broadside shot. I would practice shooting the rifle a lot to know where it will impact at what ranges and the amount of drift.

If it is such a bad round why is it the Inuit have documented killing polar bears and musk ox with .223 and .22-250 as witnessed by writers such as Craig Boddington, and Jim Shockey.

Several hunters I know have used .223 AI's to take Blacktail, Caribou, Wolf, Elk, and Moose.

[Grant Pearson]

The .223 is capable of taking deer if placed in the hands of an experienced shooter. Are there a lot of experienced shooters out there? Absolutely not. Not as many as there should be. As it stands right now, the .243 is the smallest caliber allowed in MN. A .223, .222, or a .22-250 can cleanly kill a deer, but there are way too many ways for the shot to go wrong, especially for the majority of the weekend warriors that would want to take those calibers out and shoot a deer just so they can say that they shot one with a .223. Just because it's legal to do, doesn't mean that you have to do it. I do the majority of my deer hunting across the border in Wisconsin, and it's legal to deer hunt with a .223. Am I going to do it? Not a chance. I'd rather have a caliber that I know can and will cleanly kill the deer on the first shot. I have enough respect for the deer to make sure that it goes down with the first shot, and goes down quickly. If the bill does pass, I hope that everyone at least has the decency and respect for the deer to use a caliber that will cleanly, quickly dispacth the deer. IMO, it won't matter if the bill passes or not, I will be doing the ethical thing of making sure I can make a clean shot and put the deer down quickly.

[BoxMN]

 Originally Posted By: kingfisher1

especially for the majority of the weekend warriors

I won't disagree with what I think your main point is... but aren't just about all of us actually "weekend warriors"? Heck, with most people only having about 2 weekends of deer hunting, and some evenings and weekends to shoot targets...

I wish I could have a spot nearby to shot all year round, for fun and practice. Actually, I am on waiting list for a place like that now. The folks in the country have me jealous, this is just one reason.

BTW - I won't be hunting deer with those small calibers even if it does pass, but I wouldn't mind getting one for fun.

[big drift]

How can it go wrong?

Your using quality centerfire cartridges with quality bullets, on a modern rifle action in most case using the best quality optics made in the US shooting a flat trajectory bullett.

How is this wrong?

Much less variables then the almighty .30-06. Dang near the same energy as a .243 (but of course those don't kill deer either).

This is as much an issue as the Magnum vs. 270 betwewen Elmer Kieth and Jack O'Connor.

Unless you try it or have a better argument as to why the state should be allowed to limit our right to use a quality tool I have to chalk this all up to folks not knowing enough about bulletts and ballistics and thinking all .22's are their squirrel guns.

A .223 with a 62 gr. bullet is moving at roughly 3020 fps with a recoil muzzle energy of approx. 4.07 ft. lbs. Compared to a 7.62x39 or .308 (both of which have killed lots of deer) when shooting a 150 gr. has a 2840 fps and 17.01 of muzzle recoil. Which is faster and has less recoil reaction?

Speed results in expansion which creates pentration that results in hydrostatic shock and tissue damage.

Less recoil results in less flinch that results in better aim.

Speed results in faster stabilization of bullet making for a tighter pattern when matched to the correct barrel twist.

Again where is the drawback?

And I bet Mr. Bell never killed all those elephants with his 7x57 Mauser because it wasn't a .375 or higher.

Sorry but again I am tired of hearing the argument that a .22 centerfire is underpowered when no one offers any reasonable proof to support it.

[WalleyeGod]

I ran an Exbal ballistics printout for a 22-250 using a 60 gr. Nosler Partition and here are the velocity and energy numbers over 400 yards in 100 yd increments. Black Hills ammo.

100 - 3113 fps and 1291 ft-lbs

200 - 2718 fps and 984 ft-lbs

300 - 2355 fps and 739 ft-lbs

400 - 2023 fps and 545 ft-lbs

Arrival time to reach 400 yards was .4492 seconds.

Keep your shots within accurate shooting ability and use the proper bullet and this .22 centerfire is an option according to the figures. If a guy thinks about what has been the longest shot and the average distance for taking a deer here in MN you would fill 90+ % of those tags using the first two lines above. Lights out I do believe. Can't wait to here the reports next fall, if the bill passes, from using the .22 centerfires. It will be interesting to hear from the responsible hunters that tried it. I may be one of them.

WG

[big drift]

Thanks for the numbers I am waiting for Quickload to get back to the office to run the TSX and will post that up.

I am concerned about the round count however, I do have some concerns of folks running around with 30 round mags and spray and pray. With that said I also do not want the state telling me how many rounds I can carry so that becomes a lets see what happens.

Next thing ya know the state will tell me I cannot smoke while hunting.

[Code-Man]

can the DNR make a regulation that your gun can only hold x amount of shells? I know a person who has a bannana clip for his 270 and you can hear when he goes popping off shots. They have it for waterfowl why not deer?

[mrklean]

Probably because for waterfowl if you have an extend tube you can just keep firing away at birds. Deer most will mostly only be able to get one thats my guess.

[sportfish]

I thought a 10 shot clip was the most rounds u can leagaly hunt with.

[Grant Pearson]

Box-

I agree that most of us could be considered "weekend warriors." To clarify it a little better, what I meant was those who buy a gun, sight it in, then put it away until deer season where they take it out, go up to the cabin, see a deer, shoot it without checking the zero, and putting the gun away after the season's over, repeating the cycle year after year. I'm refering to the small majority of hunters who give the rest of us a bad name by say they're going to go deer hunting when the main objective is to out drink their buddies, get slobbering drunk, and stumble into the woods at 4 a.m. with the .223 they just bought cuz they could now shoot it in MN (which they thought bore sighting was good enough) and think that they can shoot it like the .30-06 they were using before.

[big drift]

I don't htink your giving much credit to Deer Hunters. Things have changed over the last 20 years in regards to hunting practices.

While I agree there will always be some boneheads out there the majority should not punished for the acts of a minority.

[PerchJerker]

big drift -

I think you make a lot of good points, but I think you are overlooking the most important point. You're talking about bullet velocity and felt recoil, but you're leaving out bullet energy when the bullet strikes the animal. Bullet mass has a lot more to do with energy than velocity does, and faster speed does not mean more penetration. So even though your 62 grain bullet is faster and generates less recoil to the shooter, it doesn't carry as much energy and therefore is not as effective on deer in most situations as the 150 gr bullet you compared too. And that is regardless of bullet design coming from the .22 centerfire.

I'm in the camp that says 1,000 ft lbs is the bare minimum amount of energy you should have for whitetails. According to the numbers posted by walleyegod that makes the .22 center adequate, but just barely.

There's no question that .22 centerfires CAN kill deer effectively, but I don't agree that they WILL be effective for many shooters. For that reason I would prefer to not see the .22 centerfires become legal deer calibers.

Overall good discussion in this thread and lots of good views and comments from both sides.

[snapcrackpop]

A gut shot deer is a gut shot deer. Doesn't matter if the bullet was from a 30-06 or a 22-250.

It will help the younger/smaller hunters out by allowing the "lighter" calibers.

The DNR is going to leave it up to us to make the right shot with the bullet we choose to use.

[PerchJerker]

I'm not talking about gut shot deer --- if you're gut shooting deer, either start practicing or stop hunting.

I think the calibers in question are barely adequate for deer. Certainly they will make clean kills for good shooters that use the right ammo and wait for the right shot opportunity and hit where they're aiming. But I don't think these calibers will give the penetration and expansion you'd want for reliable kills with marginal hits, or where you're hitting bone on the way in.