MN Muzzleoader No Scope rule

[HuntFishDude]

Hi there,

I'm a little puzzled by this law against scopes on muzzleloaders. I'm wondering what the reasons would be for this restriction? I've been in MN now for three years, and this is the first place I have hunted that has this law in place. I could understand if there was a primitive only hunting season that required the use of flint locks and the like, that would make sense...although I might not hunt it.

My thoughts are since we are allowed to use modern inline ML, which are capable of shooting out to 200+ yards, why not allow someone to acurately sight that distance. Me, personally can't do that without a scope so I won't take the shot. But I am guessing that people will try. One may argue that each person should realize their limitations, but why increase that limitation?

What is the reason for the muzzleloader season? Is it not another tool for the DNR to help control deer populations? Or is it an opportunity for people with better eye sight to be more humane in taking of animals. I do understand there is a provision for people with eye disease or damage ( doctor witnessed) and I applaud that although it still limits to non-magnifying, 1X. Even if they only allowed the 1X for everyone, this would be an improvement (as WI does). The difference in the sight picture allows for a more accurate and usually more humane shot.

As a side note I usually don't hunt the rifle season in MN becuase I like to get out when there is snow and less people. I have heard comments that if we allow scopes then more people will hunt the ML and thereby ruining the solitude of the season. My guess is that won't probably wouldn't happen but even if it did, so what, everyone has the right to hunt and enjoy each season. I will continue to enjoy this great season and hope everyone else does as well!

I am curious how people feel about this, let's hear your thoughts!

HuntFishDude

[EXTREME]

I'll hunt it no matter what. I would love to use a scope...but it is not that big of deal. It kind of brings me back to my youth using iron sights. Shot many a red squirrel without a scope. Anyway, it they decide to make it legal for scopes, I will put one on; if they never make it legal, I will use iron sights. I love hunting that time of year.

[HuntFishDude]

oop, see, I need a scope to spell the title of this thread, my apologies!

[fishorgolf]

All the people against it have there own reasons. Tradition, to many people will take it up etc. But IMO all of your points are much more valid. My eyes are just not what they once were so I have a very hard time sighting in at any distance. I get the back sight in focus and the front sight is blurry and vis. versa. Yes I still take very nice deer every year so should I complain?

after spending my entire life in MN I have seen the DNR (IMO) turn more into and agency that believes it's mission is to save the wildlife instead of and agency that works for wildlife, hunters, fishermen etc. as a group. I may get some flack on this but hey I say what I think.

[ghotierman]

I think when Minnesota first enacted the muzzle loader season back in 1977, it was to give opportunity to 'traditionalists'. It was certainly not meant as a management tool at the time. (about 1000 hunters bagged 32 deer that first season). Times have changed though. There is a bill in the state senate that would allow scopes on the muzzleloader season. It would also change the licensing to allow an allseason firearms only option that would allow you to hunt both the regular firearms season, and the muzzleloader season.

The question is, what should the purpose of the muzzleloader season be? Should it remain a haven for traditionalists? A quieter time so they can connect with the ways of the past without competing against the numbers during the rifle season? Some might see this as similar to the debate over crossbows during the archery season. They have take the step to allow crossbows during the firearms season. But traditional bowhunters...even with the high tech compounds available..recognize the uniqueness of the sport. Muzzleloading season is the same. A separate season, to accomodate traditional styles...despite the advancement in the technology.

You can always use a scope on the ML during the regular firearms season. Personally, I like the idea of restricting the season for the traditionalists.

[DonBo]

You can use your scoped ML during the regular firearm season. If you want to hunt the special ML season it should be a bit more dificult. Just because it is not called a "primitive" season doesn't mean it isn't meant to be one. Would you feel better about it if the wording were changed to "primitive"?

IMO inlines should also be banned from the ML season.

Sorry, don't mean to stir things up, just one mans opinion.

[rowdyf]

I agree with the no-scope rule. Granted I'm younger and my eyesight isn't failing, being out in the woods that time of year, hunting with a "primitive" weapon, and getting close enough to the game you're hunting is a challenge.

My challenge is not to shoot 150+ yards at a whitetail, but to get close enough to make a lethal shot I'm comfortable making without a scope. Like EXTREME said, going back to the day when you had your first rifle or pellet gun and you used iron sights, thats the fun in it for me.

You can use a scope during the regular firearms season.

Fishorgolf, have you tried a peep sight with a fiber optic front sight? I work with a guy that has diabetes and failing eyesight and that setup worked great for him.

[fishorgolf]

The only firearm I hunt with is a ML so during the reg. FA season I do use a scope, so this is a good compromise IMO.

DonBo, Stiring things up is good! I have no problem keeping things as they are but I would never give up my inline. I used to hunt without one, patched balls and the whole deal. But the time I pulled the trigger on a nice buck and all I got was a cap pop (wet powder) I had an inline the next day. Was the wet powder my fault? Yes. But will I ever go back? No.

[Jameson]

I believe scopes should be allowed on muzzleloaders. I believe it would result in a more quick, humane kill more often.

 Originally Posted By: HuntFishDude

...What is the reason for the muzzleloader season? Is it not another tool for the DNR to help control deer populations?...

Nope, not another tool to help control deer populations. Not enough hunters, or deer taken to classify it as a "tool." MN DNR uses early doe season, and liberal tag limits as it's tools to control deer populations.

The reason we have a ML season? I have heard it reported we have a ML season, because a few folks wanted a season to hunt with "primitive" weapons and not have to deal with the woods full of other hunters.

As I have stated before, and it was not received very positively on this forum, my personal belief why we have a ML season: To give the Conservation Officers a chance to hunt with their friends and family. MOST CO's cannot or will not take time off during regular gun season. Normal gun season is like their Superbowl. So the ML season, with very few hunters in the woods, gives the CO's an opportunity to hunt with friends and family during a gun season. Good for them, everyone should get the opportunity.

If I'm correct in my reasoning, the DNR believes allowing scopes would put many more hunters in the woods, thus diminishing the chances CO's would have to hunt during a gun season. I just don't see that many hunters ever taking up ML hunting(scope or no scope) when the season falls after most of the archery season, and all of the regular gun season.

[lawdog]

I still say that's a crock Jameson and I don't know that you have any basis to claim that, but whatever.

The muzzleloader season is meant to be a more restrictive season than the regular firearms season. One restriction load from the muzzle single shot weapons only. Another restriction no scopes. Yes an inline fits that definition, but i personally don't have any problem with that is its the same basic principle, just better. Adding scopes changes the dynamic of the hunt substantially. Its no longer about getting close and earning that deer, its just about killing one. I can shoot 200 yards with my scoped Omega and that's not what the muzzleloader season is about.

Its especially troubling to make a 200+ yard shot a possibility at this time of year as it would frankly make muzzleloading too easy. Deer tend to herd up at this time and its tough to sneak up on a herd without getting busted. Taking a long pot shot at one in there isn't really a challenge.

Don't change our ML season!!!

[doser]

What Lawddog said . My feeling 100% as he.

[HuntFishDude]

Wow, great discussion! So it seems to me people are falling into two camps... One camp who thinks scopes would improve their hunting experience and those who think it would reduce their enjoyment.

Don't you think this should be up to the individual? I wonder if the individuals who prefer not to use scopes during muzzle loader season, do you use scopes during the regular firearms season? If you don't, why? Wouldn't it be more challenging to take the deer with open sights? BTW, I agree with the statement about being closer, which is the reason I love bow hunting so much.

As for the origins of muzzleloader being a traditionalist season, that's fine but I'm guessing that the definition of traditionalist was put together by a politician. My take is either its a traditionalist season with flintlocks and wearing skins ( which is cool , I really admire you guys and ladies who do this) or its a modern ML with inlines and yes, scopes. Still limited to one shot which really makes you more patient.

I guess I'm not convinced hordes of people would start hunting the ML season, there's too much comradery and family vacations tied in the rifle season for that to happen. Let me be frank, its the reason I hunt ML instead of rifle, I don't like crowds. Given the temp was -15 in the morning I got my buck last season and in 14" snow, I don't really think people would flock to it if we allow scopes. If,people did flock to it, I would imagine there would be possible additional restrictions on top of the deer limits now. But in general, maybe a few more people would hunt it if they didn't fill their tag during the regular season.

I dunno, as much as I like to be in the woods alone, I don't feel right excluding people because they don't feel comfortable shooting with open sights. My hat is off to them because if that is the only reason, they are respecting the deer and making a humane shot.

Personally, I rarely take shots longer than 100 yards (even with a scope) but I would be more comfortable with a scope for all shots.

Thanks,

HuntFishDude

[fishorgolf]

I see both sides of the scope issue and discussions like this are great to hear. I tend to agree with huntfishdude that people will not flock to ML if scopes are allowed. I to took my buck in -10 and a foot of snow this year. yes I believe some more people with give ML a try if they can use scopes but I think few of them will continue to do so. Not only because of the conditions but because you really have to have the right place to hunt this time of year were you KNOW the deer are. Most people are not going to last long sitting in the same stand they hunt during rifle season for 8 hours at 20 below hoping someone pushes a deer there way which as we all know is not going to happen. And how bad for the sport can a few thousand people buying guns etc. etc etc.

[DonBo]

Huntfishdude, you say you are also a bowhunter. How would you feel about allowing unlimited crossbows during the archery season? I HOPE you would be against it. The reasoning is the same, I think. The season is there in the first place because of the dificulty factor. By pushing the envelope with advancements in technology your chosen sport is loosing some of it's credability. I believe if crossbows were allowed during the archery season, that the long season we now enjoy would be drastically shortened.

I know archery has come a long way in the last few years, but the percentage of deer taken really has not risen that much. Most of the added sucess is because of the additional tags available.

IMO you hardcore ML hunters like yourself should be the ones to put limitations on your sport in order to keep what you have.

[fishorgolf]

Very good point DonBo. Though think a standard bow to a cross bow compared to no scope to a scope is a much bigger jump, your point that a crossbow would greatly increase the effective range for bowhunting the same as a scope does for ML is very well taken. Not that everyone would feel comfortable a these extended ranges the opportunity for longer shots are there.

I used to bow hunt but because of some arm problems (that are Ok now) I gave it up. But to be totally honest, if I could use a crossbow I would probably start bowhunting again. Think about it. effective 60 yard shots without the months of practice.

[charliepete2]

I think scopes offer too much of an advantage. Restricting them keeps MZ a short yardage game, and still lets people use their inlines.

[icehousebob]

I was one of the guys who called themselves buckskinners who worked to get the original ML season. We competed in matches all summer with traditional guns and wanted a season that we could use them for hunting without being over-run by guys with rapid fire weapons. I was looked down on by guys who used smooth bored flint lock guns because I use a copy of an 1840 Sam Hawkin percussion round ball gun. Built it myself from the ground up. Since then, the season was hijacked by guys who want to hunt all the seasons with guns that the tradionalists refer to as zip guns.

How about an early tradional black powder season before bow season followed by the late scoped zip gun season that anyone can buy a license for?? That way, everybody gets what they want.

[ANYFISH]

If they allowed 1X scopes I would use one. I would never use a magnified scope for muzzleloading, not the challange I am looking for. It wouldn't hurt me for them to never allow scopes, I still fell a little bad that I hunt with an in-line, but my confidence level is so much higher(about just getting a shot to shoot). I hunt deer the same with all three weapons (bow, rifle, an ML), I wait for the closest best, possible shot, I probably don't need the scope.

Also crossbows wouldn't destroy our bow hunting, I have shot and seen many shoot them, there is alot of things that can go wrong when shooting such a short bolt. 60 yards is a long shot for a crossbow considering all the factors to make clean kill. A good Archer with our new bows 50 Yards, a considerable change in opportunities, maybe, but not much difference in range. IMO

[fishorgolf]

We have a ML forum!!!

[Bowfin]

Personally, the main enjoyment I get out hunting is more the "hunting" part and not as much the "weapon" part - Figuring out the deer and not as much as to what I shoot it with.

It has been great to be able to hunt both the firearm and muzzleloader season - it has extended my hunting season and IMO sitting in a ground blind with a smokepole in December is a heck of a lot more fun than sitting in a treestand with a bow in December. If we can someday use a scope - great I'll use one. If not - oh well I'm still having fun. A scope would be good for my dad though cause he has a bit of trouble seeing open sights with his eyes. I hope they don't make inlines illegal cause I paid 600 big ones for my Encore. I would hunt with anything that is legal as long as I was hunting.

*If the DNR started a special "sharp spoon" season I would probably buy a license for that too!

[icehousebob]

Bowfin, the comment about sharp spoons brings to mind an article I read a while back about Pennsylvania. They established a deer hunt for atlatls. That's a spear thrower that predates the bow and arrow. They had trouble getting the season because most legislators didn't know what they were and then they didn't think anyone would hunt with one or be able to kill a deer with one. They were used for thousands of years to bring down game and there are guys all over the country that are crazy enough to practice and compete with them. They figured the first year they might sell a couple dozen licenses. Never did hear how its turning out.

[iroutdoors]

No matter what you choose or think we as hunters can only take the deer that the law allows. Enjoy the hunt and use what ever you can to fill the freezer. Between bowhunting, rifle, and muzzle its 3 1/2 months of whitetail chasing. If you need a scope you got 2 weeks.

[papabear]

Ive taken up bow hunting because of the challenge and solitude. Ive considered takin gup muzzle loading for several years. To me the point of these sesons is to offer more than the typical rifle season. if you allow scopes it will be close to the typical rifle season.

Bow hunters have to be selective in their shots as do muzzle loaders to ensure a clean kill. Adding a scope takes soem of that self control about shot selection out of it. An iline is an imporvement but not necesarily a drastic change in muzzle loading. It is one shot and iron sights. Sounds to me like some people want another opportunity to hunt deer beyond rifle season but want all the luxuries that go with it. If you want to keep hunting just buck up and use what is available or do not go out. Hopefuly next year Ill be in the woods in late november and killing a deer. I gave up Rifle season because it is crowded and out of hand with 5 deer limits and controversy over selective harvest and trophy hunting. Bow and muzzle loader should be an alternative not a continuation.

[PerchJerker]

I have several thoughts and comments on this subject ......

I don't think allowing scopes on MLs is going to lead to many more ML hunters during the ML season. If someone likes all that is involved in shooting muzzleloaders and hunting the ML season, then not being able to use a scope in the ML season is not going to stop them from hunting it.

I strongly disagree with the idea that the ML season was intended to be a "primitive" season. It started out as a primitve season because those were the only MLs available at that time. As technology changed and advances came along like in-line rifles and pyrodex and other black powder substitutes, and pelleted powder alternatives, and hotter primers, and sabots and other better bullets, and primer discs and break action rifles, and fiber optic sights, etc. etc. it was obvious that ML season was NOT a primitive weapons only season.

I doubt if more than a handful of today's ML shooters know the first thing about primitive weapons .... things like flints, pans, FFg, patched balls, hangfires, why you can't shoot pyrodex in them, and why the barrels on primitive MLs are so much longer than on modern MLs.

I wish we had a primitive weapons only season for those who want it. Flintlocks or sidelocks only, no scopes or fiber optic sights, no 209 primers, no substitutes for black powder, and patched round balls only. That is what a primitive weapon season should be.

I also wish our ML season allowed scopes along with all the other advances that are out there. The important distinctions are that hunters still load from the muzzle, are limited by 1 shot and don't have to compete with the hi-power rifle guys.

A point that I think is important, and that I think a lot of people don't understand. A scope does nothing to change how a ML shoots or how accurate a ML is ..... a scope only allows the hunter to aim better. But MANY of the other advances have changed how MLs shoot and have vastly improved the inherent accuracy and range of MLs. Examples:

- in-line technology and hotter primers lead to better ignition and fewer hangfires, which means better accuracy,

- pyrodex and other blackpowder substitutes shoot hotter and with higher velocities than black powder

- modern MLs allow hunters to shoot 150 grain loads and even smokeless powder --- traditional or primitive blackpowder guns often shot around 80 grains

- new bullet design and sabots improve trajectory and accuracy thereby extending the effective range of MLs

In my eyes, the bottom line in all of this is it just doesn't seem consistent or make sense to me that we allow all other advances to MLs but don't allow scopes. To put it another way, why are scopes where we draw the line between what is and is not allowed?

[HuntFishDude]

Well thought and well put, PerchJerker. I agree 100%. For me personally, the scope just allows for a effective and clearer sight picture, which is why even a 1X allowance would work for me. But I can certainly see allowing any scope.

It does seem to me that aside from a personal choice to make it more difficut and therefore a more satisfying hunt, the main objection is the fear of crowds. And while I'd rather not see more people out where I hunt, I'd be willing to risk it (low risk IMO) for the ability to use a scope.

Someone mentioned there is a bill on this issue, perhaps we all should write our representatives with our own differing opinions...

I will continue to hunt the ML season, even if it reverted to a real primitive season...where's my spear!?! I'd rather not give up my high tech warm clothes though!