Wolves

[Bandit]

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Minnesota does need a season on wolves, not to help the deer population (the deer population is PLENTY high in my opinion) but to instill the fear of humans into the wolf packs. They need to know humans are a threat. In AK wolves try to avoid people at all costs, because they fear us.

Exactly!! Could not have said it better. You the man Fishermann222

[Steve Foss]

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but I doubt they have the intelligence to send out a newletter to the rest of the pack.

Bob

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Not a newsletter you or I would understand, but they communicate perfectly well with each other.

[BobT]

What you are suggesting would require more intelligence than I believe any animal other than humans have.

I was told that I underestimate their abilities. Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps others are over-estimating their abilities and giving them more credit than they deserve? I can agree that a wolf or any animal in captivity or one that is in regular close contact with humans will eventually learn not to fear us but I draw the line that they could actually pass that knowlege on to the rest of their pack without actually exposing the rest of their pack to the environment from which they learned it themselves. In other words, those members of their pack that have not been exposed to humans will remain just as wary as any other wild members and only those that have experienced the exposure will lose some level of respect for us.

This is easily witnessed when you have farm cats. When our cats have kittens and we don't know about it, those kittens are as just about as wary of us as any wild cat. They are not naturally domestic. In fact, I know of one tom in our area that is a product of one of our females but has never had human interraction. To this day he remains as wild as any fox or coyote I've encountered. I only wish he would expose himself long enough for me to get a shot at him because I'd like to remove him. This cat has not had human interraction and so it's natural instinct is to be wary of us and it is.

Bob

[Steve Foss]

Bob, I understand your reluctance to attribute too much intelligence to the wolf. Those who are in contact with wolves on a daily basis, such as trappers, subsistence hunters and biologists, have delivered many accounts testifying to the wolf's ability to communicate in ways we can't share and don't understand.

Using experiences with farm cats to draw conclusions about wolf behavior/intelligence doesn't work.

[fishermann222]

Stf said it well. When trapping wolves you can't even use snowshoes, the pack sees them and sense trouble right away. How do we know they sense trouble? the tracks they leave behind show it. They scatter when they come upon snowshoe trails. Now trappers have changed their ways and no longer use snowshoes, but wolves still fear them. All it takes is one member of the pack who "remembers" to communicate with the rest of the pack when they come upon a set of snowshoe tracks that these are things to avoid and be very cautious around. This is what your talking about in your comment. Now my question to you is, how many wolves have come in contact in some way shape or form with humans? probably EVERY wolf out there. No land is as pristine and untouched as it use to be.

Bob you seem like a very intelligent man, I really think you should purchase those books, heck even add the "Alaska's Wolf Trapping Manual" put out by the ATA. You will quickly learn just how intelligent those wolves are. Again, this is all documented info from biologists and trappers who not only read about wolves but study them and live the life trapping, hunting, and managing them.

Just my opinion, but if you need something extra on your xmas list, put those books on it, you will not be disappointed.

[BobT]

I don’t deny that they are very smart and they can and do learn. This is true of any animal. Just visit a circus or my farm and you can see that. I’ve got kids you know.

One thing that wolves do have to their advantage is that I will agree they are probably more intelligent than the prey they pursue and because they live in packs they are able to pass learned response to their offspring more efficiently such as how they react when they encounter a human. Their hunting tactics and flanking techniques are learned behavior taught to each other. But I draw the line to believe their offspring gain this knowledge without being taught by their parents or the rest of the pack.

Assuming that they could readjust, put any tame circus animal back in the wild and I would be willing to bet that once their offspring grew up they would fear humans just as much as any of their wild friends even though their parents may not. Unless they encounter humans, their mothers would not have opportunity to teach them not to fear or respect humans and they are unable to pass that knowledge along verbally. On the other hand, if they were exposed to humans as they matured and their mother then showed them that we were not something to fear, that might be a different story.

I don’t believe animals are born domesticated. I believe they learn to be domestic. Go into the building where we feed our barn cats and the young ones that haven’t been handled much, if at all, scatter like there’s no tomorrow. As they get older and more exposure to us through regular feeding, and my kids, they slowly come around. Most of them do anyway. Toms are a different story unless they are handled a lot by my kids when they are babies.

When our mares give birth, those foals are not born tame. They avoid us as best they can but because mama is there they quickly settle down enough that we can catch them but that’s about it. The earlier and more often we handle them the tamer they become around humans and it affects their attitude for life. If we wait too long to handle them or don’t give them enough attention, they are forever hesitant around people. Just like how bucks are more wary than does a colt is worse than a filly to tame.

One must remember that unlike wild wolves that may encounter humans on a rare occasion I'm referring to animal species that have been domesticated by humans for untold generations. One would think their wild instincts would have been bred out by now but that is just not the case. Instinct is not a learned response it is part of who they are.

I believe that if the alpha male of a wolf pack had exposure to humans and that taught him how unthreatening or perhaps vulnerable we are he can teach it to the rest of the pack through his behavior. They will follow his lead and thereby learn for themselves that we may not be a serious threat.

In your analogy with the snowshoes, fisherman, you demonstrated how they avoid the snowshoe tracks. This reinforces my claim that they must learn not to fear us. Those wolves were cautious because they were not trained to not fear us. If they were the scent they encountered wouldn't bother them and in fact might even follow the trail looking for a meal.

Bob

[fishermann222]

BobT that is what I have been getting at, learned behavior. THey need to learn to fear humans in Minnesota. Currently they do not fear humans too much, and thats not a good thing. Having a season on them will help them to learn to fear humans.

That is what I have been getting at all along, learned behaivor.

[BobT]

I am enjoying this discussion. I might take your advice fisherman and check out those books you recommend. It might be good reading and who knows, this old dog just might learn something!

It appears that we are on completely opposite sides of the same fence. You believe the wolf already does not fear us but I believe they instinctively do fear us but in some rare situations some have learned not to. Your illustration about the snowshoes supports my belief. Furthermore, in all my encounters with wolves in the wild I have never experienced a wolf that showed aggression or lack of intimidation from me. At least in the area of Northern MN where I frequented, they have not learned to not fear us.

Anyway, as I consider our discussion I can conceive of an agreement with you. As I have already alluded to, I believe that the pack is the reason wolves might be able to “teach” each other about the threat of humanity. They can pass this knowledge through their generations and over time this could make them a more formidable threat as this knowledge is shared by more an more of them but I do not believe it would remain with each of them instinctively. Take them out of the range of human interaction and I believe they would eventually lose that knowledge as their descendents would no longer get taught about us.

Here’s the catch. As we continue to spread out and occupy more of their habitat and vise-versa thanks to the efforts of the DNR, our territories will overlap further and we and they are bound to have more frequent encounters. Similar to my cat feeding example, as a result they could learn to fear or respect us less. Since we have enjoyed relatively few incidents over many generations we have learned to become complacent with regard to the wolf. As a result we fear them probably more than necessary. That is not to say it is a bad thing and they should not be feared or at least respected. We are better to err on the side of caution. At any rate, this would make us both more vulnerable to the each other. Between wolves and humans, we share the top of the food chain in these parts. Eventually, confrontation is inevitable and likely more probable if for nothing other than territorial needs.

I guess this is my way of saying you just might be r…r…r…right.

Bob

[fishermann222]

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It appears that we are on completely opposite sides of the same fence. You believe the wolf already does not fear us but I believe they instinctively do fear us but in some rare situations some have learned not to. Your illustration about the snowshoes supports my belief. Furthermore, in all my encounters with wolves in the wild I have never experienced a wolf that showed aggression or lack of intimidation from me. At least in the area of Northern MN where I frequented, they have not learned to not fear us.

Bob

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We agree more than you think. I think they fear us naturally, And they are taught to fear us even more by the pack. I also believe they can be taught to NOT fear us. That is when we have to be careful, wolves that are taught not to fear us because humans are not a threat. Having an open season, instills would be a good word I guess, the fear they already have into them even harder.

hmmm typed this during my rushed lunch hour, does it make sense? I believe I have done a poor job of explaining my point. Doing it between classes just doesn't cut it

[BobT]

I guess it would reinforce the fear of us in those that have learned not to especially if they lived through the encounter. Then they would pass along that to their pack.

Enjoyed our discussion.

Bob

[Big-Al]

fishermann222-

It is so interesting that in your vast area of Alaska that the wolves are so wary that they will avoid human contact at all costs. Thirty years ago I would have seen the same behavior that you now describe in Alaska:

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When trapping wolves you can't even use snowshoes, the pack sees them and sense trouble right away.

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Thirty years ago, when I would see a fresh wolf track or tracks, that would be the last time I would see fresh tracks in that area for that period of time. Human presence in the area would seem to move them out of the area completely. They would not follow or even cross a snowmobile track or human trail. Now quite often when I work in an area for several days I cut fresh tracks each day. They will follow a trail left by humans or machine. Lately it is not uncommon to find that the wolves have followed my tracks. I did not see that 30 years ago.

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What you are suggesting would require more intelligence than I believe any animal other than humans have.

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BobT- maybe not more than any other animal, but certainly more than any other animal that is common in northern Minnesota today.

[fishermann222]

BigAl they do LOVE to follow snowmachine trails, as long as they are in the open, once the trail goes into a narrow area with trees on both sides they quickly scatter.

I just love wolves, can't wait to battle wits with them this year and trap a few.

[Curly]

Please post some pics if you trap any.

[Bandit]

Very interesting debate you guys have going on. I myself believe they have learned not to fear humans since we have not given them a reason to for a very long time. I believe they are just like the mountain lions in CA. People have had alot more encounters with the cat after the seasons on them were closed. They learned that we were not hunting them, so they in turn began hunting us.

[tealitup]

I can attest to the wolves learned behavior. Wolves, I have found, have learned that humans are not to be feared since there is no danger associated with said humans.

In the past 5-7 years, wolves have increasingly become more accepting of our hunting party. Visual evidence from members of the party suggest the wolves have spotted, tracked and watched members throughout a hunt.

I myself had an encounter whereas three wolves discovered my position and proceeded to scout me out.

[Steve Foss]

Tealitup, I think you are right. I think a lot of wolves in the lower 48 are less wary of humans than they were when they were being eliminated.

But something keeps them from considering us prey species, and not necessarily because we carry guns. Hunting is only one activity in wolf country. At least as many non-hunter-hours per year go on in northern Minnesota in the woods, like hiking, camping, birding, photography, by unarmed people.

Wolves continue to be wary of people to some degree, otherwise a pack of four or five would easily kill any human they wanted to. Even a person armed with a semi-auto assault rifle and trained in combat would have a hard time killing five wolves all attacking at the same time.

Yet, even though we seem to be having more close encounters with wolves and people, attacks continue to be rare and deaths almost never happen. It's a new world for wolves and people in lots of places where wolves have recolonized areas in the lower 48 after being extirpated. Since they've been gone, we've put cities and farms and lots of places of our own to live in those areas, and now that they're repopulating I'm sure we'll have a lot more encounters.

What we don't really have is a historical perspective on wolf/human encounters when there were wolves everywhere in the U.S. That was a very long time ago, and was a time when most feared wolves and believed eliminating them during America's westward expansion was nearly a sacred quest.

So it's hard to know if the way wolves are interacting with people now, when they're not hunted, is the same way as they interacted with us 150 years ago, or whether their behavior has in fact changed through not being hunted.

It'll be an interesting decade ahead for wolves and Minnesotans.

[BobT]

I suppose one reason for the rarity of attacks against humans is that unless I'm mistaken, most predators will not hunt other predators. It's too risky for them to do so as they risk too much injury. That's partly why predators will prefer to take sick, young, or injured prey. The risk factor is considerably lower than trying to take on a healthy adult.

They know we are predators because of our eyes. Predators' eyes are typically located to look forward whereas prey animals have their eyes located more on the side of their heads for more peripheral viewing.

Bob

[tealitup]

Stfcatfish,

Well stated my friend. However, all it would take is for one pack to successfully attack a human without being destroyed after. That pack can/would then identify humans as a food source.

The wolves that I have seen fall into different catagories:

1. Chance - I just happened to be at the same place and same time as a wolf. When noticed they would run.

2. Confusion - confused as to what I was since they smelled the scent of a deer (prey) and found me.

3. Curiosity - Previous wolves who have had little or no contact with humans. My hunting shack could be a place where wolves often hunt for mice and other critters since people are only there a couple weeks out of the year; hence they wonder why the new smell.

[Steve Foss]

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all it would take is for one pack to successfully attack a human without being destroyed after. That pack can/would then identify humans as a food source.

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Agreed.

[Muthagoose]

Guys C'mon you talk about a canine like its some mystical animal. Any dog is killable.........

Do any of you actually know a trapper up here? If they are any good and run long lines then you've heard them complain about wolves they have caught and had to release or claim to have.

My first couple years trapping cats and yotes I released a couple of them a hog pole and a pine limb works fine.

Just ask CO Fondie,Starr or Stein they will tell ya they get a call to assist a trapper with a wolf every so often.

So imagine how many get dispatched tossed....

As for predators hunting down and eating other preds. Watch the national geographic show about yellow stone. Yotes eat fox,wolves eat yotes,ect starts as protecting territory and goes onto dinner.. Heck Wolves eat wolves.

[Big-Al]

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Any dog is killable.........

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I don't think anyone said anything about them not being killable. In fact one of the points I've tried to make is that they are extremely vulnerable with their present lack of fear of humans. I've seen 20-25 in the last five years that would have been pretty easy shots and quite a few others besides.

[Ferny]

Analyzer...interesting that you mention Noel Daluge, May he Rest in Peace. It's been a long time! I remember all the people searching and searching to no avail. Especially his poor Dad. I graduated with his older brother at North.

My only experience with wolves has been through a co-worker.

He has a cabin that borders the BWCA. He has had many close run ins with them. They show no fear towards him (almost being aggressive more than curiosity) and he now carries his Glock at all times outdoors up north. He has had one follow his footsteps on the frozen lake while also being flanked in the woods. A warning shot didn't scare it when it was too close for comfort! He has also had one follow him onto his dock and he had to get into his boat and leave. The scary part for him is his boy is about 10 yrs old and must be watched like a hawk at the cabin. That's too bad.

This doesn't sound like friendly (scared of humans) wolf behavior to me, what do you think?

I haven't seen one personally yet but, I don't like the idea of a cougar or wolves in MN. I'm scared of anything that can eat me being any where close to me in the woods...But I'm a chicken! Unless I'm armed of course I have seen track though so I'm sure it's just a matter of time.

Anybody ever seen or heard of any in the cities? My wife swears she saw one the fall of '06 that was bigger than a German Shepard. It was running through a corn field in Stillwater? My brother said he saw one in Scandia running through the back 5 in the fall of '05 too??? Of course I believe my wife but not my brother

I heard there's a pack in Carlos Avery don't know if it's true though, Anyone???

Ferny.

[fishermusk]

In 2005 I seen what I thought were a pair of wolf tracks is Carlos Avery. I know what coyote tracks look like and these were not coyote and they were heading in a straight line without human tracks by them so I am pretty sure they were wolf tracks and not a pair of dogs. I have also found six bear dens in Carlos Avery

[nimrod71]

Not sure if Carlos Avery still has the "Wolf Research Project" located there. But back in '87 I was there for a week and heard from the people that ran it that wolves had from time to time escaped from the enclosure.