Is the DNR taking the right approach to Deer Management in MN?

[lcornice]

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Question --

How can we get the DNRs attention so they know that people have this thoughts on management --

Can you send them the link? Would it matter to them?

My guess is no, but is it worth a try?

Moderator -- what do you think?

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Of course it matters. This site is probably the best one I've seen regarding information exchange and dialogue. Believe it or not, public opinion and information is extremely important in deer management. By now, most everyone knows who I am and yes, I read a lot of the posts and do post to clarify and interpret regulations and/or deer management issues. Ocassionally, I pretend to know something about rifles and shooting. However, I don't do it to spy on people; rather, I do it because of the quality of this board and the desire to teach, learn, and exchange information.

While I certainly won't post anything regarding my personal management opinions on this board (or any other), I will direct you to an extensive survey done regarding this very issue. It's a survey of 3,300 deer hunters that was completed in 2005. It's a long document but may provide some insight into what MN hunters are thinking. To sum it up, there's not one size fits all for MN deer management.

Happy reading ... http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/outdoor_activities/hunting/deer/2005huntersurvey_fulldoc.pdf

[Rost]

I still think it's funny that you have to draw to shoot a doe in MN! The deadline to submit for your doe tag is always the talk of the town!!!.....yeah right. I know 25 guys that hunt deer in my SW MN hometown and not 1 of them go through the hassle to apply for a doe permit. Last I heard, harvesting does is an important part of quality deer management. Unfortunately though, most guys won't harvest a doe unless they are forced to.

After moving to SD and seeing the HUGE difference in deer quality, I now realize that drawing for buck tags is much better for both the quality of bucks and buck/doe ratio.

SD manages with deer quality in mind. MN just manages deer.

I also wonder why MN splits the season into weekends for the SW Region? GIVE THE HUNTERS TIME TO Harvest them! It's no wonder why everyone is driving around like mad men and choosing to harvest dinky deer... it's because they only have 14 hours of sunlight to pull the trigger! Especially now since you can only take 1 deer per person. Why not just open the season up between the two weekends? Make it a 10 day season. Ooops, then they'd lose the multi-zone revenue.

I feel they should manage county by county, as each county is different. Estimate how well the deer herd is doing in each county, than distribute licenses accordingly. If the DNR feels that Lincoln Co. should have to harvest 200 bucks and 300 does, then give out that many tags.

[chucker34]

lcornice, first off, thanks again for that information and all the information you give out on the site. Know it must be an extra duty.

Second. Do you know approximately when the 2007 harvest stats will be out, broken down by zone, area and weapon, etc.? Just interested to see the results in each and think/hypothesize how that will affect next year. I'd particularly like to know the number of does harvested versus permits issued plus those taken in archery and muzzleloader without them. I know there's a nice one in archery that I registerd. The doe fawns around here usually breed and often have twins so the more that made it this year the higher the local population next year.

Third, per Rost's comments. Just wondering the reasoning behind the split two day and four day weekend seasons (417 where I am) and why not just a continuous nine day season like some neighboring areas, especially if the bag limit is restricted to 1 deer total and not 3 with the all season in years past. I'm sure there is a good one. Just interested. Thx and again, sincerely appreciated.

[Dahitman44]

Well it is good to hear that they follow these threads.

I suppose it is bad when I complain about the DNR??

[Black_Bay]

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I still think it's funny that you have to draw to shoot a doe in MN! The deadline to submit for your doe tag is always the talk of the town!!!.....yeah right. I know 25 guys that hunt deer in my SW MN hometown and not 1 of them go through the hassle to apply for a doe permit. Last I heard, harvesting does is an important part of quality deer management. Unfortunately though, most guys won't harvest a doe unless they are forced to.

After moving to SD and seeing the HUGE difference in deer quality, I now realize that drawing for buck tags is much better for both the quality of bucks and buck/doe ratio.

SD manages with deer quality in mind. MN just manages deer.

I also wonder why MN splits the season into weekends for the SW Region? GIVE THE HUNTERS TIME TO Harvest them! It's no wonder why everyone is driving around like mad men and choosing to harvest dinky deer... it's because they only have 14 hours of sunlight to pull the trigger! Especially now since you can only take 1 deer per person. Why not just open the season up between the two weekends? Make it a 10 day season. Ooops, then they'd lose the multi-zone revenue.

I feel they should manage county by county, as each county is different. Estimate how well the deer herd is doing in each county, than distribute licenses accordingly. If the DNR feels that Lincoln Co. should have to harvest 200 bucks and 300 does, then give out that many tags.

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It wasn't too long ago seeing a deer in SW Minnesota was the talk of the town. The DNR doesn't want to go back to those days. Hence an antlerless lottery.

The weekend seasons is to let the farmers get their work done without having to worry about everyone and their brother asking for permission to hunt. another thing is to not have to worry about getting in the middle of a deer drive and get plugged off a tractor.

[sticknstring]

Thanks for the survey link Icornice... lots of good information in there. This should spark some new opinions and rejuvenate the post.

I'll throw out a few facts I've found to be of interest and we'll go from there... Now let me start by stating I exclusively hunt with bow and arrow and that I spend many days in the field each fall. I'm in favor of seeing more mature bucks and support the different regulations that would allow this to happen.

66% of hunters are supportive of a regulation that would increase the proportion of antlered bucks. Of the 7 regulation proposals, no majority was reached on any of them. Here's a few...

49.9% were in support of an early anterless season (which has since been adopted)

46.8% were in support of antler point restrictions.

45.6% favored eliminating buck party hunting

36.7% were in support of a earn-a-buck regulation

54.5% opposed moving the season out of the rut

Findings: The regulation that drew the most support (early anterless) has been popular/effective and I feel will continue to be a mainstay. Anter point restrictions grew nearly as much support and should be adopted. Certain state parks have been enforcing this for the past few seasons and I'd like to see the data pertaining to buck harvest. I'd also like to see a chance for bowhunters to hunt these areas. I believe that the majority of these hunts are firearm only.

Looking at the numbers it doesn't appear the MN firearm season will be moved out of the rut anytime soon. Over half the respondants opposed it. That's fine if some other form of regulation could be enforced instead, such as point restrictions.

What's everyone else think now that we have some concrete date on the subject and do you think anything will change in the near-future?

[lcornice]

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Well it is good to hear that they follow these threads.

I suppose it is bad when I complain about the DNR??

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Not bad at all. I complain about plenty of things myself.

[lcornice]

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lcornice, first off, thanks again for that information and all the information you give out on the site. Know it must be an extra duty.

Second. Do you know approximately when the 2007 harvest stats will be out, broken down by zone, area and weapon, etc.? Just interested to see the results in each and think/hypothesize how that will affect next year. I'd particularly like to know the number of does harvested versus permits issued plus those taken in archery and muzzleloader without them. I know there's a nice one in archery that I registerd.

The doe fawns around here usually breed and often have twins so the more that made it this year the higher the local population next year.

Third, per Rost's comments. Just wondering the reasoning behind the split two day and four day weekend seasons (417 where I am) and why not just a continuous nine day season like some neighboring areas, especially if the bag limit is restricted to 1 deer total and not 3 with the all season in years past. I'm sure there is a good one. Just interested. Thx and again, sincerely appreciated.

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A final release of numbers comes out around the end of January, after the end of bow season and when all the paper tags have been entered. I've been keeping a running tally of electronic harvest this year vs. last year and firearm is off 3% from last year, which was the #2 ever. So, it will ultimately shake out as #2 or #3 all-time once all the seasons close.

Getting at antlerless permit success is difficult in managed and intensive areas because bonus permits are not area-specific. I can certainly do a breakdown of who is killing what but what you generally see is a higher percentage of does are taken by archery and muzz. hunters but by far the highest number of does are taken by gun hunters because that's the vast majority of hunters.

As for zone 4, it dates back to the mid-70's and hasn't been addressed. So to be honest, there really isn't a good reason. Over the last few years, I'm sure you've noticed that zone 4 has been whittled down to really the core farmland area of Minnesota. Everything else has already been put into zone 2. Quite frankly, there really isn't a need to keep zone 4A/4B anymore. With youth licenses, multi-zone buck, and all-season about 85% of all hunters in zone 4 can hunt the A season right now (only 15% of hunters buy a 4B-only license). If you look at harvest, it pretty much mirrors Zone 2 (60% first season, 40% second). However, convincing people to give up tradition may prove challenging, especially where deer are vulnerable (farmland). There's a perception that increased days = more deer killed when in reality, increased days only spreads out the same harvest. Having said that, it will likely be a topic of discussion either this winter or next.

[Eric Wettschreck]

We hunt 4A. It would be wonderful to eliminate the 2 weekends and just go 2 weeks. I'm still going to shoot the same deer, or maybe let a few pass if I know I have time.

[chucker34]

Thanks for the response lcornice. I guess I was looking more overall if you could tell the number of does registered in 417 so far, all weapons combined to compare it to last year. Not sure if that's possible and don't want to make you do extra work so I can wait for the detailed report to come out.

Also, not sure if I'd want the season changed either, though it might lighten the pressure to shoot the first thing that comes along. I know if I haven't tagged out by gun season with my bow, I'm looking for the sure thing opening weekend.

BTW, I'll also be interested to see the number of deer taken by crossbow this year since they were allowed in gun season. Do you break that number down or was it just tagged witha firearms tag?

[BLACKJACK]

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66% of hunters are supportive of a regulation that would increase the proportion of antlered bucks. Of the 7 regulation proposals, no majority was reached on any of them.

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Of course the majority are going to answer yes to increased number of bucks and/or bigger bucks!!!!! Thats like asking someone if they'd like to make $500,000 a year!!! Of course they'd say yes - until they realize they'd have to work 86 hours a week and travel to Timbucktu and give up their first born.

When the bigger deer 'yes' people realize that they might not be able to shoot a deer every year because of increased doe harvest or antler point restictions, a lot of those yes's will change to no's.

[harvey lee]

I'm glad the DNR is trying to do their best to keep all happy but I dont believe there is a solution to this as everyone wants some different rules so they can shoot the deer they are looking for.

Tough job for any one group of people to solve when there are so many I's and not many we's. If it could ever happen that all could sit down together and find a program that worksd for everyone, that would be great and I believe that the DNR is trying their hardest to do that.

Question is, can that really happen??

[smnduck]

The split season does a few things down here in the farm country. It gives the very heavily pressed deer a break. Very little cover in the farm belt. It also allows other groups to hunt land the next weekend after its been hunted by others. There is very little public land in southern Mn. Over 99% of the land is tilled black dirt as I type this.

The reason that there is a doe tag draw is that there is very few deer in the farm belt as compared to other parts of the state.Be very grateful that alot of you fellow FMers can hunt the woodlands and see deer up north.That is not the case around here. It is not uncommon to drive ten miles and the only trees and brush are around farm groves, most of which are 5-10 arces at the most. Southern Mn. is propbably the most intensively farmed ground in the world. Land prices range from $2000-4000 an acre for farm ground and $4000-9000 an acre for hunting ground. So the guys up north that are complaining should take a breath and relax a bit. It would be fairly easy to knock the population out without the doe tag system. Farmers do not want a large deer population because of crop preditation and they control most of the ground. The balance down here is very hard to keep in check and keep the majority happy with. The DNR has done a fairly good job with the expected spikes and lows in the population. My hats off to them and the folks that work so hard at the Madelia research station.

[nine-tiner]

They are doing an OK job, as mentioned they keep "tweaking" the system.

We hunt in central Minnesota (Stearn CO) and since I started hunting 20+ years ago the population has gone up and down likewise our success. And by success I mean a harvest of a legal animal. We have marginal hunting areas and are lucky to SEE deer. We pay the same as everyone else for our licenses, we just choose to fill them if given the opportunity. No we don't fill every tag and that isn't our objective. We do however like to be able to make sure everyone gets a "taste" of venison for the year. I would just love to be able to pick and choose what I shot, I really would...if I knew in the end I was guaranteed meat in the freezer.

Now as far as QDM goes, it sure seems that either and EARN a BUCK program, or LOTTERY, or perhaps the Higher prices for a Buck license may be the answer.

What hasn't been mentioned here is the fact that GENETICS and NUTRITION play the biggest part in "growing trophies"

[sticknstring]

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GENETICS and NUTRITION play the biggest part in "growing trophies"

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Definitely key parts but AGE is the primary ingredient.

[archerystud]

I would estimate about 99% of hunters would LOVE to shoot a 4.5 year old buck or better. I'm not a biologist but I would bet most 4.5 year old MN bucks would be able to grow racks which would score 125 inches or better. That is a shooter in my book until I can start seeing "more" 150 inch deer.

[nine-tiner]

if it is age then why do they have to take MANAGEMENT bucks on all those TV hunting shows...those bucks are as big as they are going to get or are going to pass on their "inferior" genetics...such as a 'basket rack" or only getting to be a 6 or 8 pointer. Sometimes it age but i have heard more than one hunter say I have to take that one because he just doesn't have the "potential"...brings a whole new level to QUALITY DEER MANAGEMENT...in my mind a healthy deer heard is successful management!

Some one should do a breakdown of where in Minnesota a majority of the trophy bucks are harvested...my guess...AG zone....most pressure, most deer harvested and still growing trophies..

[sticknstring]

Not trying to start anything here and I'm not by any means a biologist but...

Don't believe everything you see on hunting shows... A lot of the mgmt bucks taken on QDM properties would be trophies to a lot of people here, myself included. That ground shrinkage 130" buck they just shot on film turns into a management buck. Just because that particular deer wouldn't have the potential to reach say 170" or even 150" he is still a quality buck. Show me a 4 1/2 + year old whitetail and I can guarantee you he won't be sporting a "basket" rack. Tine length may not be there but a deer that age should have enough mass to make P&Y as previously mentioned, even with average genes and nutrition.

And I agree with you - the SE portion of MN continues to put out big deer year after year. Now if I could just secure up some acreage down there I'd bet set!

[Shack]

I just hope for a healthy disease free herd. Also in good abundance from does, small bucks or big bucks. The meat is the key for me.

For what it is worth, I think DNR is doing a good job all around. I would like to get a big mounter, but do not judge me getting a mounter on whether or not the DNR is doing a good job or not.

I think of the days of one buck tag and a lotto for a doe. Never had this by a ton of bonus tags during season or by my license during the season and wait 24 hours. That’s pretty neat. If you did not submit by Sept or bought your buck tag by 10:00 p.m. before opener, you sat out for the year. Those where in lean years, so it is pretty neat they allow this and it must be because of the good job managing the herd, they do this for.

I know I am saying “I”, but I am in this 99.9% of the time for meat. The other .01% for a trophy buck.

[Dahitman44]

Two weeks would be better. That way we can go out and look for quality deer and let the other ones go.

[smnduck]

I have to agree with shackbash. I think way to many people watch "horn porn" on TV and think thats the way it is and should be everywhere. The hunting shows are no differant than the fishing shows,catching,shooting the biggest all the time.

[Shack]

Am I correct, in the late eighties, you got one buck tag and that was it. Unless you submitted a form in Sept. for a lotto doe permit. You where very luck for two deer, but the most a hunter could get was one buck. I could be wrong and it may have been different in other areas of the state, but it was how it was where I started deer hunting. Plus there was a ton more area around you could hunt and it was easier to get permission and the population was much less in this state (I do not know about hunters out in field). I still was skunked on good land, (my fault as a learning hunter).

It seems to me DNR has made more deer available to a large population and dropped the restrictions dramatically in the last 15-20 years, with less land available to the average Joe hunter. Spells a good job to me.

P.S.

Thanks SMNDUCK

[lcornice]

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Thanks for the response lcornice. I guess I was looking more overall if you could tell the number of does registered in 417 so far, all weapons combined to compare it to last year. Not sure if that's possible and don't want to make you do extra work so I can wait for the detailed report to come out.

Also, not sure if I'd want the season changed either, though it might lighten the pressure to shoot the first thing that comes along. I know if I haven't tagged out by gun season with my bow, I'm looking for the sure thing opening weekend.

BTW, I'll also be interested to see the number of deer taken by crossbow this year since they were allowed in gun season. Do you break that number down or was it just tagged witha firearms tag?

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PM me with your email address. Also, there won't be any way to determine the crossbow kill. The legislature merely authorized their use. There was no license or season created (thankfully). Therefore, the weapon used won't be captured when you register the deer.

[chucker34]

How do I do that? Honestly.

[lcornice]

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How do I do that?

Honestly.

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Oops, looks like you can't private message on this forum. Last year, there were 998 antlerless deer registered by now and there were 2,200 lottery permits allocated. This year, 800 lottery permits were available and 520 antlerless deer have been registered. So, the reduction in harvest tracks well with the reduction in permits.