question about property surveying?

[BobT]

Okay, yes my comments were meant to be sarcastic and exaggerated. I realize there is more work involved but for 24K I think the surveyor would have to work just about as hard to justify that cost to me.

Reminds me of my septic system scenario I inquired about earlier.

Bob

[perchking]

I guess I am not saying it is cheap but for me (Maybe not for you) it was worth it. They marked the corners with Steel postes and I guess if anybody moved them there is posts underground also where they can be easily found. I guess when I first replied to this post I was just telling him what I did, the cost, and if I was happy.

[McGurk]

No Prob, Bob, and it'll take a lot more than that to offend me! I'd be interested to hear how he came out on that septic bid.

That kind of coin is pretty hard to swallow, and there are different grades of surveys that can be done. Hey, I'm all about getting a good price on things, but good work ain't cheap. If the requested work (roughly established lines and roughly found corners?) can be done for for less that $2,000, great. If he wants more accuracy than that because there is an issue with a landowner who abuts his property, he may have to pay for it. Most people on this site have no problem paying for a $250 rod/reel combo when a $15 combo will cast and catch fish, or getting a $20,000 boat/motor/add-ons when an old 14' w/ a 25 hp motor will get you around on MOST lakes. Those examples might be apples to oranges, but you get what I mean.

[icehousebob]

Just a bit of sideline humor on property lines. My neighbor here in Minnetonka started doing major earth moving on his land(without city approval). I came home to find a bulldozer digging a hole in my back yard. I went and offered to make a bet with the cat skinner that a .338 Win. Mag slug could penetrate his engine block. He refused the bet. Of course, that was in my young and foolish days. I'm much better now that I'm on my medication.

[JohnMickish]

Not to long ago there was a guy on this site stating how the original survey from however many years ago was off 100 feet and he lost his families cabin because of it. Is 100 feet worth 24K? You never know until you get it marked.

[eyepatrol]

Being that I work in the engineering field with registered land surveyors in our office, I can certainly attest to the fact that surveying costs are higher and typically more detailed than they ever were. Why? Lawsuits are one reason, but the computerized age and getting things on GPS or GIS (Geographic Information Systems) is becoming more the norm.

If you want to simply locate one line of your property, the cost should be relatively low (to todays standards). Low being it might cost anywhere from $250 to possibly $1,500. It depends on the information available. Surveyors many times have to go to the County office and find information on the property (time and money). Then the crew gets sent out to locate corners (time and money...usually travel time, labor, mileage and sometimes charges for equipment). After that, a drawing is usually produced (but not always) showing the property lines. Sometimes more detailed surveys are required (ALTA surveys) and these cost much, much more.

As said by others, the handheld GPS units are not sufficient for surveying. GPS units for surveyors can range from $25,000 to upwards of $50,000 or more. Some do have the capability of being run by one person also. If you need to establish a line through trees, two people will likely be needed and it will take some time to establish set up points, cut sight lines through the trees, etc.

Cost all depends on the detail required and the information available to a surveyor. Sometimes a surveyor will need to go all the way back to a section corner or some other monument to set up a control point. There are many variables. $24K to establish property lines seems to be high, but then I don't know the details of it really. For our crews, that would be about 20-22 days of work plus a day or two of in-house drafting of a map showing the information. Still, the security of knowing where your lines are is well worth the money to some folks (or many).

If you need further assistance ELE, you can certainly contact me also. [email protected]

[iffwalleyes]

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Everyone is is a surveyor today aren't they

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Yes, I am today, and have been in the field for only about 5 years. Still learning myself! Just don't tell my boss I'm learning here right now!

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I read that in your profile so I knew you were. And I agree totally with you. I am not a land surveyor but I work with many and know a little about the drill. As Bass said cost are hugh today for surveying. I was told and I don't know for sure but that the company I work with has about a $100k to fully equip. a survey crew with trucks, GPS, Total station and all the other misc. equipment. Plus additional things like 4 wheelers etc.

[harvey lee]

Just because you have it surveyed dont think that it is a accurate line.A very good friend of my owns a ranch in North Dakota and had the property lines all re surveyed 10 years ago as he was told by the U.S.Foerstry service that his line markers were wrong.He called the company and told them this and they stated he would have to have it done again.They came and did it free and it still does not match the goverments survey.Long story short,the goverment says they are wrong and he has to give up 44 acres.They are still fighting to this day 10 years later with his line marked and the goverments line marked different.What a mess it is and each side says they are right.

Probably a rare deal,but what a mess.Attorny fees for years in letter writing and the goverment does not give up.

[bturck]

Basscatcher: Does a county plat map of a piece of property hold any water as far as lot size? The reason I'm asking is that I bought a piece of lake shore and cabin last year and the seller showed me where my pins were at on the shore line. The place next to me was also purchased last year and the county platt showed the same lake shore frontage on both his and mine. the cabin owner next to him just had his land surveyed and my neighbor just lost 8' of shoreline. He is pretty pi**ed to say the least. The owner who had the survey done (not sure why he did it) said his survey cost him $300. They said the surveyor had gone six cabins away and worked his way back all the way to my property. The only one to lose lake shore frontage was my immediate neighbor, all of the rest of ours stayed within a foot of the county map, but he lost 8', where did 8' go. He now has his title company involved however they tell him he needs a survey to substanitate the discrepancy and then they will become involved. Makes for bad feelings among neighors thats for sure. Like I said it does not affect me but I feel sorry for this guy he is really a great guy. Bill

[eyepatrol]

btruck....

I'll bring it up with our registered surveyors when I get back to work, but that won't be until atleast Friday as I'm home tomorrow with a sick kid. I'll get back to you as soon as I can though.

[bturck]

Thanks, I appreciate your help. ONe other point on the platt that was provided for myself and my neighbor at both of our closings it indicates 76' of lake shore for all three of us. ON his appraisel there is a very good drawing of his property and how the property lines apply to my land and the next door cabin who initiated the survey. This drawing with all lot dimensions, setbacks etc was notorized and signed by a representitive of Kanabec County. As I mentioned Scott now has only 68 based on the survey but it didn't add to my property or the other party?????? Thanks again for any info, hope your young 'un is feeling better. Bill

[blgoose]

I havent follow this whole post, someone maybe mention this earlier. I live in grant, in stillwater my neighbor across the street has metal stakes marking is property lines.I took a metal detector, but couldnt find mind.Would they be located in the dainage ditch off the road.Any ideals were else to look.I cant use my neighbors because lot lines are different.

[eyepatrol]

I'd go to the County or City Hall and see if they have a plat or description of the property where you could find reference points and do some measuring and locating with the detector. If you have a next door neighbor that adjoins your property, you could also ask if they know where the corner is that you share. If you found that, typically you could walk parallel to the roadway from that corner to the other side of your property and hopefully find the other corner. Of course, if your property lines are skewed, then that wouldn't help.

I'd try and find a plat or description of your property and work off that.

[blakjack23]

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Not to long ago there was a guy on this site stating how the original survey from however many years ago was off 100 feet and he lost his families cabin because of it. Is 100 feet worth 24K? You never know until you get it marked.

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The neighor at my Dads cabin had whined for years to my grandpa(who owned it at that time) that our driveway went through is property. Anyway, when my Grandpa died in '97, my Dad took ownership of the cabin and had the land surveyed to figure out if the neighbor was right or not. I believe the survey was around $600. What we found is that the neighbors cabin that was complaining had actually built his cabin(over 20 years ago) on OUR land. The court battle is almost complete, but its going to end up that we are getting all of his land and lakeshore minus his cabin and ten feet around all sides of it.

[McGurk]

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...its going to end up that we are getting all of his land and lakeshore minus his cabin and ten feet around all sides of it.

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And that, my friends, is why there is much more involved to a survey than brushing a couple of lines and guessing an aproximate corner location. Anymore a surveyor with a registered land surveyor (RLS) license has duties more akin to lawyers than estimating land quantities in the field. Get to know your neighbors, and try to stay on good terms would be the moral the above story.

[BobT]

I understand what you're saying, McGurk. I wonder what legal responsibility the surveyor has beyond determining the boundries. Can the surveyor be held liable in some way to either party? In other words, what does it matter to the surveyor after he's completed his work?

Bob

[McGurk]

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Can the surveyor be held liable in some way to either party? In other words, what does it matter to the surveyor after he's completed his work?

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As far as I can tell (I had to talk to the boss on this one), if a surveyor is proven to perform at an inadequate level relative to other surveyors in the area, legal recourse can be taken, if there is substancial evidence provided to show poor workmanship. The specifics aren't written in stone as far a a level of performance given in a specific region.

If there is a disagreement after the first party's surveyor (meaning company or firm) has done their work to their satisfaction, the other involved party is to hire their own surveyor to check against the first's work. If there is still a discrepancy after both surveyor's work is completed and compared, a 3rd surveyor must be commissioned, and usually by this time the court is involved. Then there most likely could be action taken against the incorrect surveyor, probably to the degree of invested money.

As much as we try to be accurate with our current work, imagine if you had a huge house from the late 1800's and all of your updating electrical work had to be based off of the original wiring, outlet locations, circuits, etc, and you could _not_ start over by removing and replacing the whole electrical system. Sound like a pain? That is kinda like what we have to do; work with original plats and attempt to establish correct locations and areas.

I guess I really don't want to have it come to that for me and my work, and I do not have my RLS yet, so I do not claim to know everything there is to know about this. A question was posed, and I have been trying to respond to the best of my abilities. There are some other informed posters on this site that can hopefully educate me if I'm wrong, and it sounds like SteveWilson, basscatcher, and loucks are in the know.

[eyepatrol]

bturck....

I had an opportunity to visit with one of our registered land surveyors about your concern. Let me mention first that because we’re not directly involved with this and don’t have the plat info, etc., our surveyor could only give general comments and suggestions. But, what he did mention was this. If there was an official plat of your lots done and recorded with the county, then your neighbor should have property irons (property corners) marking his land. An official plat is one that has the surveyor’s signature, county recorder’s signature and all the other jargon with dedications written on the plat and filed with the county. Your neighbor should check to see if an official plat was done and is filed at the county, then try and find the irons marking his property corners. If an official plat exists and it shows 76’, then he definitely has a gripe for “losing” 8’.

If the land was sold without an official plat being recorded and filed, then whomever bought the land first has rights to the land they purchased. One exception – if the lots were part of an official plat, then if there is an overlap of properties and the location of property irons don’t check out (match/make sense according to the official plat), then the amount of overlap would be equally distributed between all the lots along the lakeshore where you live that are a part of the official plat.

Although the county may have a plat map of the piece of property, it wouldn’t necessarily hold water if it’s not an official plat map with all the signatures, descriptions, etc. And although the drawing was notarized by someone, it only means that the notary witnessed a person signing a document and that’s it. Doesn’t carry any weight beyond that.

I know what I just wrote doesn’t give you all the answers; in fact it may only raise more questions. But hopefully it will lead you or your neighbor in the right direction. If you do have more questions, fire away and I’ll see if we can help.

[kunk]

Something interesting regarding lakeshore surveys. Several years ago I had a neighbor who angled his dock toward my property, then put a couple sections off that so he was well in front of my place. So I called the DNR and a guy referred me to what he called the best real estate attorney in MN. I have 1 acre on the shallow side of the lake, so the lake goes down a foot and I gain 2-3 feet of shore. The current shoreline is 30 feet from the original corner markers and the lake level is now controlled by the DNR, so it is pretty stable. My objective was to determine if his dock originated from my property as he had a very narrow strip of land and his dock was close to the fence line. I was told that riparion rights give you ownership of the property between the corner markers and the lake, but from the markers, the property lines head toward the deepest part of the lake. That way if the deepest part is off to the left or right, you still have lake property if the lake would go way, way down. If you extended your property lines straight out, you may end up with no lakeshore at all. Of course he advised me that cost to determine those lines would be astronomical. Easiest to picture on a lake with one deep hole. Hardest to determine and the costliest to have surveyed would be a lake with multiple deep areas off your shoreline, as was mine. Fortunatly, the neighbor lost interest in place and abandoned it.

[bturck]

Basscatcher: Thanks very much for your time and effort regarding this question. The former owners of my neighbors property came over last Sunday and stated having lived their for 12 years (this is a year round property) that the pins that were just set are absolutley wrong. So it looks like my neighbor will now be forced to have a survery done to once and for all, hopefully, establish the corner markers and determine whether he is 8' short or not. Again many thanks for your help and input. I sent your post to my neighbor this morning and will see him again this weekend. I'll let you know what the outcome is, if it ocurrs within my lifetime LOOOOL. Bill

[trailratedtj]

just to throw my 0.02 cents

im a surveyor and $24,000 is rediculous. the more the acreage the better. unless the land falls in 2 sections or more, has more than normal exceptions, or is already in a land dispute than prices should deffinately be under $10,000.

if the land is heavily surrounded by woods and GPS cant be used then prices will raise a good bit depending on the size of land being surveyed.

deffinately getting all the documents you can prior to having the survey done will save you a good bit. you should be able to go to your county seed recorder and track down all the documents on file for your land and the surrounding. basically all the land in the section(s) yours fall in. id carry your main property documents in to a couple of land surveying firms and have them give you an estimate. smaller firms will more than likely except the job than a bigger well know company for a lot lower price.

id say if the section your land falls in cornered monuments are in and easily found and 3 or more of your corners are in and agree with corners surrounding your land agree then the survey should be within $1500-$3000. just me blowing something out.

oh and my gps system is a trimble R8 roughly $52,000. rapid shooting gets you within a tenth. a multiple timed shot gets you on average 1-3 hundreths depending on satelites.

by the way first post on the site. been reading for a while, very awesome site. moved up to minnesota a little over a year ago and dont regret it at all.

the names daniel.

[not_nuf_time]

Thats alot to pay to find a fishing spot.

[mntraveler]

Not sure if that was sarcasm or not....but his system is a wee bit different than my Garmin Legend.

[JohnMickish]

Brings a new meaning to "spot on a spot", eh'?

[trailratedtj]

no i wasnt being sarcastic. didnt mean to come off that way