How MN can get big bucks

[shae1986]

So Viper you are saying that letting smaller bucks go will not increase your chances on seeing larger deer in the future. Well then how to Reserves and other private ranchs get big deer, its definitly not because they have them delivered in. Now part of it has to due with genetics, but you they don't shoot a lot of small bucks either. If i undersant you then the 8 pointer i let go 4 years ago and then shot it as a big 10 2 years ago, i would never see bc when they are so much wiser. Well then how do people every year shoot big bucks, its bc they put the time in and scout for thier deer, or they sit in that 4x6 stand, with their heater on, listing to the radio and happen to be at the right place at the right time. Even with more muture deer there will still be small bucks, bc does will still have fawns. And i will say it again, I put a lot of time studying deer, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, thats hunting, but i do know one thing for sure. Here at my college, University of Minnesota, Crookston, they had students running the DNR stations over deer hunting and all my friends said man there were a lot of young immutre deer brought in. And this is why were are doing this bc the DNR is looking at antler restrictions. And so far its looking good for the people that want them.

But i will still say this, if you want to shoot a small buck that i let go, go ahead, its still a deer and if you r a real hunter that cares, it will make you feel great that you put that animal down.

Good luck this weekend all

Andrew

[Rost]

After living in MN, then moving to SD, I would say a drawing works best. If anyone wants to argue, I invite you to ride around with me for a few mornings. You'll see more wallhangers in one morning than you have in 5 years in MN.

The honest truth.

[walleyeguy23]

I grew up in west central mn and now live in NE south dakota. I agree totally with you. I see bigger bucks each time I pheasant hunt then I ever have in MN. There are big bucks there too ,but the numbers are much higher in SD.

This post is interesting. I understand just about everyones perspective. Maybe what really matters is what you enjoy about hunting. I don't like the gov't dictating what I can and can't do, to certain extents, of course. However, either you do or don't shoot small bucks. If you don't, then you should be all for antler restrictions. If you do shoot small bucks, then maybe you should just say, "I like to shoot small deer", and let it be done at that. I feel quite confident that if there were restrictions, in a few years, most people would be quite satisfied with their success. If you hunt for the right reasons, antler restrictions should be the least of your concerns.

[buzzsaw]

I personally like Shae's response! If more people had that mentality there is no doubt we would have more "TRUE" trophy Bucks. We practice exactly what you said on the private land I hunt... we Bow hunt as well and it's frustrating when we let others hunt on the property to help take out does and they shoot freegin' spike bucks and say "I didn't know it was a buck until I walked up to the deer". My response was before you hunt on this property next year you'll need a nice pair of binoculars... I believe the teenager, but unfortunately what he did was NOT what we asked and what he agreed to do... oh, he was bowhunting and shot it from 20 yards away... hmmmmmm.

Then the other bordering neighbors smoke, bring there dogs up and let them run everywhere... yes, on our property and run their heavy equipment during the middle of the day and would rather shoot a spike or small buck as opposed to a nice Doe.... unfortunately the harder you try, it seems the more frustrating it gets. Sorry, I had to rant.

[subzero]

Seems to me there are a few questions here that tie together and also seperate the sportaman of this thread. Killing only the biggest bucks in a herd or taking any buck that walks by. With 500,000 hunters in the woods through out the season, I am sure very few of them either take the time to do what is needed to hunt only big bucks that have lived through numerous seasons. Or that they care if they shoot a huge buck every season. True trophy hunters are few and far in between because of what it takes in time and money to be able to drive for hours to scout year round and figure out a plan that will work on a trophy buck in their hunting area. If the experts are right the trophy bucks that live for a few hunting season develope a survial sense and find the refuges, either state, federal or land that is not hunted. Even in the best of years ( like this one ) I hear hunters saying they haven't seen a deer all weekend. These probably aren't the best hunters and if a small buck or a doe comes by they will shoot it and feel happy. Should only hunters with the skill or lucky enough to shoot a BC buck be allowed to shoot bucks? Where is the line, 8 points that have inside spread of 17 inches. Although a nice deer it won't make the BC book. Or should we only hunt bucks that score 170 where even by Texas, South Dakota, Iowa standards are not common. In the past I would only hunt the bigger bucks and know the time involved to do this. I no longer have that kind of time. I now make my decision deer by deer and beleive that the decision should be made by the hunter and not by the govt. or other hunters that look at the sport different than I do. It is after all deer hunting not trophy deer hunting. Check with any taxidermous and they will say the definition of trophy is extremely different by the deer they are asked to mount. No matter what the final decision either point restriction or buck only permit, some of the hunter that have agreed to it will say they have gone to far and some will say they have not gone far enough.

[nolte]

I'd like to add just a couple more things.

The thought that by letting the spikes and forks go, and shooting the smaller basket racks (because they would be legal) would hurt the genetics, is not accurate. Many times those spikes and forks are just deer that were born late and didn't have the time to develop. Sure some younger bucks would be shot, but just getting half through that first antlered year would be a major improvement.

I looked at the harvest stats from WI a few years back and at the age structure of the deer take. Almost 90% of the bucks shot were in the 1 1/2 year class. If you took out 90% of the 13-16 inch walleyes, and all of the big ones you caught, you would have a real hard time catching any over 25 inches.

[grizzald]

Subzero-- You say that everybody that tells you they havent seen any deer all weekend are bad hunters. Well ya know what, this is probably the most pathetic thing I have read on here yet. Hunting is in my family's blood. Most of my relatives hunt and we all own awesome deer land and yet you say we are bad hunters. I will admit you learn a lot of things while deer hunting, or any type of hunting at that, but when you bash us because there are actually NO deer where we are hunting, then maybe you need to come hunt around Appleton and we will see how "bad" of a hunter you are.

[96trigger]

Its amazing the differences in opinion on this thread, yet there seems to be some pretty common themes.

#1 To get big bucks, let the small ones go, even if someone else may shoot it, if its not a trophy to you, don't shoot, that at least gives it a chance.

#2. Practice QDM, shoot more does if a trophy buck doesn't come your way. There needs to be a certain amount of Deer per square mile to enable growth, if not, food and habitat will inhibit a bucks growth.

#3. Shooting a trophy buck takes skill, time, and effort. Its really hard to climb out in a tree stand. And just expect a BC buck to come walking by. I think this is where subzero was going. I'm hoping that he didn't mean bad hunters as in unethical. What I got out of his statement was that he was talking about the hunters that never scout and do more smoking and drinking before hunting, and then can't figure out why the don't see any deer. We would all probably cosider these people bad hunters, but not bad people. to each their own.

Grizzald, I feel for yah, it sounds like where you live you have a low deer population problem, and once again, I'm wondering why your numbers are so low when all over the state the population is at record levels.

As for more regulations on the taking of bucks, the fewer regulations the better. As for changing the season to after the rut, bad idea if you want to see large bucks. I hunt 3b and have yet to see any of the large bucks that I saw previously while bow hunting or scouting. Just my ops.

[CodyDawg]

I am for antler restrictions. It is done all over the western US and done successfully. I think it boils down to this.

From the survey done a year or so ago, I think I remember about half or more of the people were interested in some type of program to generate bigger bucks. A significant number were not interested in bigger bucks. However, they portion that are against it, lets really look at what they would be giving up. They would not be giving up any does, in fact, it is likely the regulations would even favor the taking of does. So in general, they would get to shoot more does. They would also get to shoot more big bucks. However, they would not get to shoot the little fellas. So they gain on two types of deer and lose one one type. So what if they did not get a deer every year? They would have to hunt a little harder and stay out of the bars a little more. Sure, it may affect a few hunters in low population areas, but that is a small % of the hunters today. And if the regulations were applied correctly, these areas could be exempt. I would think they could have different regs in different areas, eh? Appleton may not have any new regs, but the transition zone (roughly Thief River Falls to Mpls) may have some antler restrictions. Since there are plenty of deer, it should have minimal affect on hunters there.

One thing that really galls me is when guys complain about not seeing big bucks after they have shot little ones.

Oh, and one more random thought, the idea that you see big bucks in Outdoor News, thus we dont have a big buck problem is absolutely nonsense. Half a million deer hunters in the state should shoot more than a few pages of big bucks.

[almostthere!]

One more post.

We should concentrate on taking only the deer we have set our site on. Like the Rough Rider once said, "if you want a big one, don't shoot the little one." This one line applies to all hunters. For those of us who wants to shoot Mr. Big (whatever that may be), we should pass up all deer that do not measure up (even if a buck with one less point or 1 inch less total measurements shows up under our tree stand). For those of us who has no predetermined antler restrictions, we may shoot whichever deer we should choose to.

Some of us like to push the shoot a doe instead of a small buck line. What is wrong with this line? Well, we all know that a young deer taste better than an older deer and does tend to taste better than old bucks. Now the question is Does a young buck taste better than an old doe? You betcha! So, to tell another hunter (one of us, btw) that he/she should pass up on a young buck so that you or I can shoot it some year(s) later on down the road is just plain selfish and wrong.

Where my party hunts, we tend to see only little bucks. However, there is at least one Mr. Big taken every year and that one Mr. Big is truely appreciated that much more because there isn't 50 others like it running around our area.

What some of us want is not QDM but rather QAM (quality antler management). QDM is the thinning of a herd of deer so the habitat can sustain the herd and itself. QAM is the culling of inferior buck and does so that what we see all day long are monster bucks and still see no trophies because they are all the same size.

To produce a really big antlered buck, you should thin out the small buck and the doe population and cull the inferior antlered bucks: that is proper QAM.

[Nova]

Almostthere, very nicely put and true as heck. Everyone shoot what they want not what someone else wants them to shoot. I personally don't shoot small bucks, but feel very strongly that everyone should make up there own mind.

[Tyler D]

No matter what happens there is never going to be agreement on this issue. All I know is that every year more and more people get sick of only seeing little bucks and are turing to QDM. 30 years ago catch and release in fishing was almost unheard of, and now it is like a religion to many fisherman. I think deer hunting is headed the same way, and as more and more people see the results of QDM, more and more people will start practicing it.

Tonight I passed up a very nice ten pointer, spread to the edge of its ears nice long tines, but still immature with very thin horns. Many people would think Im crazy for passing it up, but I know next year it will be only that much bigger. Look at the bucks shot out of ripley every year, because they have a chance to grow up, Minnesota has the potential to be one of the premier trophy white tail areas in the country. and one day I think it will as more people see what can be accomplished by shooting antler less deer and letting small bucks grow.

[oilguy]

nodak, the road hunting capital of north america. certainly you don't want minnesota to become like that.

[Shoot2Kill]

Hello all...I'm new to this site...just was introduced to it by a friend at work. This probably isn't the best thread for me to start off in, but what the heck.

I just moved here from Alaska after a 5 year jaunt in the Air Force. I originally grew up in Iowa, so my heart is there...with all the BIG bucks.

I follow a hunting forum from Iowa religiously and let me tell you...there are some pigs being taken down there this year...and here is why...and I'm sure it's been covered, but here's my .02.

More and more of the hunters down there are practicing QDM and letting the little ones walk. If you want to see more big bucks, the little ones have to live. For the first timer, or kid, great..shoot away, but for those that want the bigger racks, there has to be a little self control. If you're unhappy with the size of deer in your area, but still shoot small bucks just to kill something, then that's your fault. Most people now days don't have to shoot a deer to survive the winter.

I saw it mentioned earlier in this thread..in my opinion, this state has it's seasons a little jacked up. Why on earth is the gun season right smack dab in the middle of the rut? I can bet the bank that there are a lot more bucks killed during gun season because it is during the rut when they're all out thinking with the wrong head than there would be if the season was after the rut. If big bucks get shot during gun season, they can't bread the does, the bucks left over get to tend to the does, and the genetics start to go down the toilet if the big boys are gone.

Just look at Iowa...season starts Oct 1 and goes through Jan 15. Gun season is in December...after the rut..which gives bowhunters full advantage of the rut...unlike MN. Bowhunters kill a lot fewer deer than gun hunters because they aren't blasting away at anything they see..not saying all gun hunters do that, but the majority of all party hunting has the "brown it's down" mentality..little bucks need to live!!

MN has three times the deer population as Iowa, but we can only harvest 1 buck here, but Iowa can harvest 2 and they still have huge deer...why is that? Anyone?

As far as a draw for buck or doe permits...I don't necessarily agree with that...you'd be out of your mind all season for a couple years in a row if you didn't get drawn for a buck tag. I'm guessing the majority of people wouldn't even go if all they could shoot was a doe.

Sorry for the long post...I hope I didn't offend anyone, just had to jump in. This seems like a great site! Glad I found it!

[buzzsaw]

You didn't offend me, in fact your post was well written.

[fish stalker]

I let a little 8pt buck go by yesterday afternoon, only about 5 min after it got by me I heard someone on the property next to mine shoot two times . more than likely the deer I let by did not make it.

been practicing QDM for about 5 years now but if other people dont join in, it does not work.

[deeky]

After this weekend, I have to agree with both lottery system and selective harvest of bucks.

This was South Dakota (lottery system), land on which the owner requires all bucks shot to be at least 4x4. In two days of hunting, with 5 buck tags to fill, our group ended up with a 3x3 (miss-read the horns), 4x4, 4x5, and a 5x5, and we saw a lot of other bigger bucks both shot and running. We filled 10 of 12 tags and the owner has two more weeks to fill his remaining tag.

I understand that here not every one is going to be selective about their bucks, and if that's all you see, then so be it - there are convincing arguements from public-land hunters. I myself will choose to be at least more selective of bucks if I take one, knowing that I have done my part and I know I won't feel guilty about it later. It has to start somewhere, and if you feel something should be done, all you can do is your part, regardless of what the guy down the road is doing. If you see it as a problem and yet do nothing about it, you become the problem. I personally happen to see non-selective harvest as a problem.

[bigbucks]

Reading through this entire post there seems to be some generalities made, that like some others have said are not true of the whole state. It looks like people who hunt the NW part of the state can't figure out why anyone would shoot a small buck when there's X times as many does as bucks whether that's 4,5,6, 7 times as many, whatever. What people in areas like that don't realize is that the doe to buck ratio isn't that far out of wack everywhere. I'd say over the last 3 years of bowhunting in Central MN I've seen a pretty equal number of does, bucks, & fawns, if anything I'd say the ones I saw the least of were does. Don't get me wrong there's a ton of deer around here, maybe not by some further North standards, but there's a lot, however the ratio is closer to 1-1 than in a lot of areas. I think a lot of that probably is the split seasons in Zone 4, sure people shoot the first buck that comes along, but in reality they shoot the first deer that comes along, doe or buck.

Most of the parties I talk to shoot a mix of small bucks, various sized does, & fawns, with occasionally a big or at least nice buck thrown in. Sure some years you get mostly does or mostly bucks, but that equals out the next year as they're more of the opposite gender in the area. I've grown up with the mentality that any deer is a good deer & remember the years when a buck & a doe was the take for a party of 9 or 4 fawns & a doe or whatever. Every area is different & has to be evaluated differently. We hunt all private land & so does everybody around us, but the average amount of land per hunter is probably 20 acres or less, that means there won't be a lot of deer for most of the hunters to choose from, just based on the pressure. The herd in our area, do to all the food can withstand all that pressure, but it sure isn't condusive to many bucks living to be very old, unless they're passed on by a lot of hunters. I had four hunters from my own party within probably 400 yards of me opening morning & at least that many from other parties, that's a lot of guns one deer has to make it past. I do advocate letting the small bucks go & although I don't always pass on them have let many, many go by. I just don't feel right about telling someone who hunts much less than I do, that they can't shoot one, because I let it go. I agree these are the good old days of MN deer hunting. I will take a doe from a yearling on up over a yearling buck any day of the week & have done it several times, but that has to be everyone's choice. What somebody else said about what stage of hunting each hunter is at affecting what they want to shoot, is dead on in my book. I personally would not be at all opposed to moving the firearm season back a couple of weeks. I'd be all for flip flopping the firearms & muzzleloader seasons. To me it would make sense to be progressive. Bow's the hardest, ML the next hardest, Firearms while still by no means "easy" is the easiest of the three.

Sorry for the length & the rambling. From the diversity of the answers it's obvious most of us agree it's a complex issue. In my book also it's a good problem to have. We could be talking about how there don't seem to be deer almost anywhere instead of the size of the deer & also a few small areas where there aren't many, along with all the areas where there are too many.

[Shad rap]

I did not read all of the postings but my two cents is that we should copy Iowa. Move the gun hunting back to December and let the rut happen during bow season. You will have a few more smarter bucks that wont show them selfs during the gun hunt. we will start seeing more deer and bigger buckes with in a few years.