Big Bucks

[B. Amish]

I'd like to think of myself as a serious trophy hunter, but it's a little tough here in Minnesota. I've heard that our state has some of the best trophy potential for whitetails, but the problem is that to many people aren't allowing the 1 1/2 - 2 1/2 year olds grow up and they think that a 1 1/2 year old six point will never grow into a large racked deer.
So my question is this...
Do any of you hunters have little programs set up in your hunting parties for letting the little bucks walk and taking more mature does? How do you get the neighbors from using the.. if it's brown it's down... routine?
Thanks for the input

[Gissert]

I hunt in zone 4A, the first rifle season. We have two days to get our deer, so a lot of the small bucks get taken, as it may be your only shot.

I prefer a nice button buck or a doe myself, but if a forkie walks past my stand, it is hard to let him walk if I want some venison and only have two days to get it done.

This new all season tag may be a partial solution. I am going to get a muzzle loader to extend my season. The rifle season will probably end up being antlerless for me, knowing I still have the muzzle loader if I can't fill my doe tag in the rifle season.

[B. Amish]

I agree that the short season leaves a lot of hunters taking the first thing they see. Maybe if Minnesota had a little longer season, we could grow some bigger bucks. Also, i've heard this solution before....

Make people apply for buck tags if they want to shoot a buck and let everyone else have an antlerless only tag

What do you think?

[PerchJerker]

I used to gun hunt in the Zone 4 seasons in western Minnesota. 2 day or 4 day seasons - as mentioned previousely, not enough time to be choosey about what you shoot or what you pass on.

I am now fortunate enough to own land in Zone 1, where we have a 16 day firearm season. I also bowhunt a lot.

On my property, I strongly encourage the shooting of does. For my guests that haven't shot deer before, I encourage them to shoot whatever they want -- I even put them in stands where I think they'll have the best chance at a spiker or forky. But for the guys that hunt with me that are experienced and have a few kills under their belts, I tell them to pass on year-and-a-half-old bucks. Personally I've passed on two-and-a-half-year-old bucks, hoping to get a bigger buck. We have enough opportunities to put does in the freezer, and most of us agree with protecting the young bucks.

There's people around me that hunt right on my property lines, and shoot deer as they cross the road. Makes no matter to them what they shoot. I don't like it, but I can't do anything about it, so I just try to stay on good terms with them. They're neighbors all year long, deer hunters only 1 weekend each year.

I don't think this would ever pass because it's such a change in tradition, but I would like to see the Minnesota gun season moved after the rut, or see a 3 points on 1 side minimum.

[Jeremy Donabauer]

There are many probelms but there are also many solutions to the situations. The most important part of growing large bucks is AGE!

For growing MN true potential the DNR could do some of the following:

1. Make opening day of gun season after Thanksgiving. Currently the opener is in the heart of the rut.

2. Make a drawing for a buck tag

3. In some of the zones the population of the deer is way down. Limit doe tags in these areas, thus bring back the population.

4. Limit the number of non-residents as other states like IA, ND, SD,and KS do.

5. Branched antler restrictions.

In the past before QDM was popular MN ranked the highest of any state for producing B&C bucks now it has fallen off the table. This is a direct result of managing deer for quantity instead of quality.

Other top producing states have strict laws to protect their big bucks along with their residents. In ND non-residents have a 1% chance of drawing a rifle tag (without going through an outfitter). In SD there is not even a drawing for an East River Rifle tag for non-residents. In IA drawing a bow tag only happens about every other year. Kansas is also very hard to draw tags, (again outfitters do receive tags). Buffalo Co in WI is one of the best if not the best place in the world for a chance at a B&C buck. It is a direct influence of QDM.

The probelm with MN is the DNR sees the deer as money, more tags sold = more cash. But this can be changed by turning the herd around then selling non-resident tags for very high prices. Such as an IA non-resident tag sells for around $350. That price alone would make up for 35 doe permits. Once the non-residents start to come more and more people will be interested in QDM with ideas spreading as they have in places like Buffalo Co. Another probelm is the average hunter in MN goes out for the weekend and calls it good. If the season would start after Nov. 20th they would still be able to enjoy their deer camp and the population of bucks wouldn't be hurt so bad. This would give the bowhunter more and better chances to arrow the buck of their dreams. It seems right when you're on the verge of killing that big boy the rifle season opens and all hell breaks loose. I've seen it first hand and been involved with it for years. I've since stopped hunting here because of these many reasons. I will drive hours upon hours for a couple days of hunting then return and do the same thing until the DNR changes something, or the hunters can rally and support such ideas.

In the past my dad leased a piece of property that we still have. It is a 20 year lease that provided us with some true hogs. In the early 90's when the population was good we had some unbelieveable days. In one day my dad shot a 140 and a 150, that evening I killed my biggest ever a 198" non-typical net. In all, in six years between my dad and myself we killed 8 bucks over 140 and many more slipped by us one way or another. This was a direct result of managment. We passed on several deer in the years before this and waited until they grew up, it not rocket science. Since those days the neighbors found out and started to be leeches but they never had the patience to hold off. This was the death of the management, the neighbors wanted big bucks but they wanted them now. I personally watched bucks grow on our land only to have a hot doe run across the field the night before opener then the big boy was killed off our property. That's a part of hunting but the person who shot this deer would have killed a spike if it was behind that doe.

I wrote a lot and I am very passionate about this because I have seen the true potetial, but the future does not look too promising.

[Canuck]

There are alot of theories concerning when the season should open and for how long. Try this one on for size:
Lets say deer season is open from Sept 1st until the 31st Dec and you were allowed one deer. My reasoning for this is:
By having such a long season a person can wait and wait and wait
or
you can take the 1st deer he sees
and
there are not as many hunters in the field at any one time with many a benefit to that one.

Some will say too long to have the DNR in the field, well, right now they are so short staffed we never see them anyways. In Manitoba it is almost that way right now.
Archery opens the 30th Aug and runs right up to rifle which then runs for 3 wks until the end of Nov. Oh yes, there is muzzle season thrown in there for 2 weeks just before rifle but archery doesn't shut down during muzzle. Therefore, a guy can legally shoot 3 deer if he wants, one archery, one muzzle and one rifle. Oh I forgot we have shotgun and a 2nd doe tag in some areas, (5 deer ????????) I generally only take one a year, that is if we get a moose and we have only missed one year for moose in the last 12 and if we don't I take a 2nd one, a doe.
Some will say well we shouldn't bother the bucks during the rut. Well our rifle season is right in the rut and there are very few if any does that go baren.

I liked the guy that said he encouaged the 1st timers to shoot a doe as I feel the most healthy herd is one that is at a ratio of 1 to 1. I would rather see a doe shot than a 2yr old buck with potential.

[Mark Christianson]

Canuck,
I don't disagree with your last statement, but me personally speaking; my son can shoot whatever he wants for his first deer. Button buck, medium buck, doe, etc....
We are trying QDM, but if my son can get his picture with little spike buck, I don'tcare whatsoever. The smile on his face will make my season.
I will let him decide what he wants to do.
As he gets older and more experienced, I will encourage him to pass on small bucks.
Well, maybe some strong encouragement.

[Canuck]

I agree, any deer for a youngster is a true TROPHY and would do the same.

[Bogsucker]

The issue brings up a few questions.

1. What does rack size indicate?

2. Is the harvesting of a large racked deer from a mangaged area a result of herd management or hunting ability?

3. If more hunters take larger racked deer what becomes a trophy rack?

[Mark Christianson]

A trophy is whatever you want it to be.
It's nobody elses decision.

If I take what one person thinks is mediocre, and it's a trophy to me.
There isn't much point in arguing that.

[B. Amish]

Yeah, a trophy is in the eye of the beholder, but who wouldn't want a 170" monster hanging on their wall.
Why not let those young hunters have a good chance at a 120" + buck instead of a little fork, not that there's anything wrong with smaller racked deer, my first buck was a little basket 7-pointer and was very proud of that deer.

but what i'm saying is this, who wouldn't want a better chance at going out into the woods every fall knowing that you'll have a better shot at shooting a big boy, the only way to do that is to let the bucks grow up, you can still shoot your buck every year if you want, but they'll be eight and ten pointers instead of four and six pointers if you let them get older

and i don't want to hear anyone say that they pass on monster bucks because they don't taste as good as younger deer (make it into venison sticks and jerky)

[TV BOY]

I am also a zone 4 hunter and get jealous with the number of days zone 1 hunters get. However, I am more passionate waterfowler. This zone has a lot of potholes and swamps. I have had a couple of scary situations with slugs wizzing over my head during the 4A season. Those monster bucks are in the sloughs! I've seen them on several duck hunts.

Unless they would extend the season after freeze up, I'll stick to wearing my kevlar only 6 days out of the year.

Ah....so much to hunt, so little time. If only Oct and Nov had twice as many days on the calendar.

[Bogsucker]

MN was and still is a record buck producing state, we have way more deer than 30 years ago, more hunters and more big bucks. And I'd guess that alot more bucks die of old age than one would think.

Yeah, I'd like to shoot a Boone and Crockett buck, but would like it to be a result of my hunting abilities rather than herd management.

My children will grow up learning that hunting(and fishing) is a way of life, not a sport or competition amongst other hunters.

QDM/selective harvest works and I'm not against it, I just do not care for the implemetation of regulations, regarding "trophy" management, to satisfy the egos of "trophy-shooters".

[This message has been edited by Bogsucker (edited 04-02-2004).]

[Swamp Scooter]

I think we all agree that we want to have the mature bucks doing the breeding. The problem is that there are not enough of them around to cover all the does. The lesser bucks get to breed out of season and we get inferior genetics and those dog sized deer running around.

If we reduced the number of does to a better ratio to the bucks we would get better bucks and better genetics as the strongest and best bucks would be covering the does.

I always hope to see the big boy on opening day and this year I did. It was the third buck I shot that morning but was the best.(the first 2 were tall spikes)One was a very big deer but with a small rack-inferior genetics. The other was the first one with a pistol.

If we really want to manage them for quality we should put a hold on shooting bucks for a couple of seasons to get the does in check. The bucks would grow and the ratio to does would be better. 3 seasons of that and we could return to open hunting. And there would be trophies to go around.

The way they multiply around this part of the country it is hard to impact the population unless it is in a small confined area.

WI has been toying with the idea of going to earn-a-buck again. This is where you need to register a doe first to be able to take a buck. That would put a damper on the buck season.

[jlm]

One problem I can see with such a long deer season is the need for wearing blaze orange. Waterfowl, varmint, and bow hunters will then be required to wear blaze orange the entire season because deer hunters will be out (they are required to wear orange during the current firarms season). I am not sure if this is fair to that crowd. I agree with the longer season but I think bow hunters should have an opportunity to go out first since it is much more difficult to harvest deer with a bow. Just my opinion.

[Jeremy Donabauer]

Bogsucker

Shooting large deer doesn't satisfy my ego. It just makes my heart beat many times faster compared to anything else I have ever expirienced.

[PerchJerker]

The most important factor in having big bucks is age. There is no possible way to make an intelligent argument against that fact. If bucks are getting shot when they're young they are never going to have very much antler mass, antler height, or antler width. You might get 8 or 10 points, but they will be small basket racks.

After age, the next most important factor to having big bucks is nutrition. Poor forage and over-populated deer herds contribute to deer not having enough nutrition to reach their full potential for body weight and antler size.

Genetics does not play much of a role in antler SIZE. Genetics has more affect on antler TRAITS, like symmetry and width and height. Unless you have a controlled deer herd (either thousands of acres, or a high fence) you are wasting your time if you're concerned about genetics -- there is nothing you can do about them.

The concensus among scientists and experts is that spike bucks should NOT be shot under the excuse of "improving genetics". There are studies upon studies showing that small spikes and forks grow impressive racks in their 2nd and 3rd and 4th years, if allowed to live that old and given adequate nutrition.

The biggest reason why Minnesota doesn't produce more big bucks has to do with short firearm seasons during the peak of the rut. This provides a lot of opportunities for a lot of hunters to fill their tags, but it doesn't provide a lot of big bucks. I've read that over 90% of the bucks registered in Minnesota every year are either fawns (button bucks) or yearlings (1.5 year old bucks). Until the seasons and/or regulations change and some of those bucks live for another year or two, there will not be more big bucks in this state.

I am not pushing trophy hunting --- I would just like to see more does get shot and more young bucks survive for another year or two. I'm not a fan of changing regulations to manage for trophy bucks, but as I mentioned in an earlier post I would like to see our season moved later, and/or go to a 3-points-on-one-side minimum instead of the current 1-point-longer-than-one-inch.

[Mark Christianson]

My belief is pretty close to what PJ is talking about.

I practice a form of QDM(don't shoot small bucks).
But our neighbors whack away if it is brown.

Even for people that claim they are not after antlers, I bet a good chunk of those people get a little more wound up when a decent buck walks by, versus a spiker.

[JiggingSpoon]

I agree with the people who said that everybody had to selective harvest bucks for it to work, i hunt right outside the metro area and there used to be so many hunters around us that you were lucky if you were to see a buck the whole season, and a trophy was out of the question, so passing one of those little 6 pointers would be pointless, cuz it would just walk across the road to the next woods and get shot, but the last few years there have been less and less hunters in our area, we have been seeing more and more bucks every year and seen a few dandys, so we started to pass up those little ones and for 2 seasons we never shot a buck, or doe for that matter, and the last 2 years me and my dad have seen trophys in my mind and last year we passed up 7 bucks between the 2 of us and i ended up putting one on the wall this year, maybe not a trophy is some peoples mind, but in mine definetly, 10 years of hunting and never seen one with a spread wider than 11 inches and then last years was a 17 inch inside spread and close to 19 outside, so i was very happy with it on the wall, i got it back yesterday, anyways back to my point we even spotted a 140-150 class buck this year after the gun season about 10 different times, so they are getting bigger, i know soon we will not be able to hunt this area cuz the houses get closer every year, but the only reason this is working is because the large party hunters that shoot everything don;t hunt around us anymore, so it works if others do it also or you have a large area to yourself,

just my opinion
JS

[psegriz]

The Grebe

You are 100% correct, I've trapped for 22 yrs. and have seen the same thing. I have also bowhunted for 6 yrs. They know when they are hunted. They didn't get big by being dumb.

GRIZ

[The Grebe]

Griz, you ever get challenged by a big dominant buck during the trapping season? I've had it happen twice and i thinks to myself, "Self, why does'nt this ever happen when you are in the tree stand with your bow, even during the rut...answer, they know they are being hunted.

[psegriz]

Grebe yea it happened to me twice also. One time in 94 I went down to a creek to check mink sets, well when I pulled the truck over I seen a real nice buck cross the road in front of me. Coming up the bank he was standing right by my truck the front bumper on drivers side. As I got closer to the truck he walked and stood in front of the drivers door hit his horns on my door putting a little dent in it. At this point I'm wodering what I should do then he turned facing me in a threatening manner (at this point he's 2' away)so I took my 22 revolver and dropped him. When I pulled the trigger the barrel was less than 6" from his head. It was opening morning of slug season so I gave the deer to the owner who let me trap his place I think he put his tag on it. BTW it was a 9 X 4 rack w/18" spread and 11" tines, very unique rack.

GRIZ

[The Grebe]

I trapped for about 25 years, between the twin cities and Little Falls. Had to give it up because of business, about 8 years ago. I'm also a bow hunter, had to put that on the shelf for the same reasons, at least for the now. I know what a good buck is and I have seen a ton of them...more of them when I was trapping and scouting then when I was hunting. If they have lived through a few seasons, they know they are being hunted, they don't dumb up as they get older, they see and smell all the Blaze Orange people and they hit the midnight shift. When they are laying low during the daylight hours, they go where it is wet, or otherwise unaccessable. It is'nt that they are'nt there, just because we don't get them, it's that they know how to survive.

[The Grebe]

Griz...that is d#$* near the same way the 2nd one happened to me! Was parked on a field road at a right angle to another field road, with a a little, thin brush and tree line runnig along it. I had just shot a coon in one of my fox sets, and was remaking it. I see a movement on other side of brush line...I smelled him before I seen him! A big old 8 pointer...head hanging, walks down road takes a left and walks right into the bumper of my P.U.! "Oh,Oh, wifes calling, steaks are done, I'll be back at you with the rest of this story in a little while."

[The Grebe]

I'm back, steaks were good! Buck bonks his antlers and almost in slow motion like he was drunk, he looks up, looks around, spots me about 10 yds. away, starts twisting his head, like he is trying to focus his wild, bloodshot eyes and slowly starts comming toward me. I hollered at him, waving my arms and he stops and stares for a second and starts advancing again! Weaving his head back and forth like a fighter. His neck was swollen, he smelled terrible, his nose was dripping, he had nicks and cuts on his head, his eyes were wild, and he was between me and the truck! I'm standing there with a little single shot Steven and all I had was CB caps and they were in the truck. My heart was beating like a drum! I expected at anytime, he would launch himself into me...At about 8 to 10 feet, with nothing else for me to do, I aimed the empty rifle at him and yelled "BANG, BANG" as loud as I could and lurched at him. He kinda reared up like a horse, again in slo-mo and half heartedly bounced to the rear of the truck. That was all I needed, I kept aiming at him and managed to make it to the truck on my trembling legs, without falling down. I started up and started backing toward him, he stood there for a minute and walked into the woods. Thats as close as i ever want to get to it!