New statewide Pike Regs

[delcecchi]

At least the data does not support your opinion Early Riser.

Anglers out number darkhouse spearers 100 to 1; darkhouse spearers have a much shorter season; are MUCH less mobile than anglers and can only spear during the daylight hours.

if you compare the total seasons against the two you will see that more northern pike (more smaller, medium AND large pike) are taken by angling than by darkhouse spear

The problem is far from being a darkhouse spearing only problem.

It is the person not the method that takes the fish.... believe it or not there are many other darkhouse spearers out there that can and do practice the same restraint you do.... no mater if the fish is in their hands when caught with hook and line or under their feet while darkhouse spearing.

.

Merk, you need to work on your reading comprehension. He said that big pike are susceptible to spearing. He did not say that most big pike are speared.

And, again, do you have any source that has data to support your fantasy/allegation/belief that "many" spearers are practicing this restraint rather than taking whatever is legal?

Still waiting for your proposed regulation. (crickets)

[pushbutton]

He did not say spearers take more big pike....no one here would argue that....well, except for you....arguing that people are arguing that. He said they are more susceptible to spearing.....and anyone who has spent anytime out on the ice on big pike lakes can verify this. Those big girls just saunter, and in my case as being an angler, have had way more interest in my transducer than any type of lure /bait presentation ever thrown at them. Regardless, what does this actually have to do with the most recent discussions.....little. Soooo, care to actually share your any of your thoughts or opinions on our little HSO roundtable talking points?

[pushbutton]

Lol....beat me Del.

[merkman]

Still waiting for your proposed regulation. (crickets)

http://hotspotoutdoors.com/forum/ubbthre...egs#Post3331940

And my previous discussion as it applies to statewide slots....

http://hotspotoutdoors.com/forum/ubbthre...egs#Post3331355

Once again I am not against slots... I am against the current implementation of northern pike slot limits in Minnesota, I am totally against the thought that slots are the only or best solution out there, and I do not agree with the thought of taking a system of regulation that is known not to work for every lake and known not to work for every legal method of northern pike fishing in the state and blindly rolling it out statewide... that is not balance that is not effective management I am not even sure what it is other than foolishness.

All this political wrestling and people are still ignoring the elephant in the room.

Regulations need to work for all legal methods of fishing, it is not acceptable to exclude an entire method of legally and responsibly fishing for northern pike by refusing to create regulations that are fair and unbiased to all legal methods of fishing for northern pike in Minnesota.

.

[Early Riser]

Agree Merk that the person is the biggest factor, and it is not just about the method. On the other hand, if I had a mind to harvest as many 30" plus inch pike as possible on any given body of water, I would pick darkhouse spearing over any other method.

Protecting viable populations of larger pike in lakes sufficient to promote good size structure of both pike and other types of fish should continue to be discussed by both the spearing and angling community. We all could agree that it is less interesting to angle or fish on lakes full of stunted hammer handle pike and tiny panfish versus a healthy lake system.

[gunner55]

Merk & ER you both make valid points.It has taken 10+ years of "special regs" for me to notice much change on the lake where we have our cabin. One of the bigger issues here was to convince people to keep some, or all, of the 18-22" fish. When cleaned properly, which isn't very hard,they are very good on the table & you can actually get a lot off a few fish that size.

[merkman]

On the other hand, if I had a mind to harvest as many 30" plus inch pike as possible on any given body of water, I would pick darkhouse spearing over any other method.

That is where I would stongly disagree.

I have seen 2 tip ups out produce 1 spear shack time and time again for the simple reason you are covering 2 spots instead of one; and moving them around to other spots is quick and easy.

Now add the fact that you can bring the wife and kids out and the 2 tip ups can quickly become 6, 8, or 10.

Heck; give me a tip up alarm and a wheelhouse and I can tip up fish 24 hours a day all weekend long... even while I sleep.... it don't get much easier than that.

.

[merkman]

One of the bigger issues here was to convince people to keep some, or all, of the 18-22" fish. When cleaned properly, which isn't very hard,they are very good on the table & you can actually get a lot off a few fish that size.

I couldn't agree more.

18 inch northern = 12 inch boneless filet = deliciousness

[20lbSloughShark]

http://hotspotoutdoors.com/forum/ubbthre...egs#Post3331940

And my previous discussion as it applies to statewide slots....

http://hotspotoutdoors.com/forum/ubbthre...egs#Post3331355

Once again I am not against slots... I am against the current implementation of northern pike slot limits in Minnesota, I am totally against the thought that slots are the only or best solution out there, and I do not agree with the thought of taking a system of regulation that is known not to work for every lake and known not to work for every legal method of northern pike fishing in the state and blindly rolling it out statewide... that is not balance that is not effective management I am not even sure what it is other than foolishness.

All this political wrestling and people are still ignoring the elephant in the room.

Regulations need to work for all legal methods of fishing, it is not acceptable to exclude an entire method of legally and responsibly fishing for northern pike by refusing to create regulations that are fair and unbiased to all legal methods of fishing for northern pike in Minnesota.

.

Am I missing something? I get you don't like slot limits. You keep saying you want regulations for all. So what do you propose? I don't claim to know the answer either, but I still have yet to see a better plan than slot limits. You don't think slot limits are the best idea? Ok, then what is the best idea?

[delcecchi]

Hey Merk, still no proposed regulation from you. And yah sure you are ok with slots, it is just that they apply to spearers that you don't like. I don't need to read your generalities to know that you and the MDAA oppose slots.

You guys oppose any regulation made so far that limits your spearing any pike you choose to on any lake in the state.

If you had a workable proposal you would have posted it long ago. So, please no more of the "I support helping the northern pike, so long as it doesn't interfere in any way with spearing"

[FlyPiker]

Saturday night and my plans fell through... This has been enough entertainment to make up for it though!

To try to bring it back to where it all started, the proposed regs. Personally, I do not like them as they stand. I do like that the DNR is aware of the fact that there are a lot of lakes within the state that have an abundance of small northern pike. I like that their goal is to increase the amount of bodies of water with a healthy predator/prey ratio by increasing the average size of predator fish and decreasing their abundance. However, I do not feel that the proposed regulations will accomplish this goal. In my opinion the proposed regulations are too generalized. There are lakes within the North Central zone that currently have not only healthy predator/prey distribution - but also northern pike trophy potential. Some of those lakes even allow spearing believe it or not. It does not make sense to me to have the 10 fish under 22" regulation on those lakes.

Before we get into proposed regulations, we need to set our goals. Just so I can give you an idea of what my thought process is, lets start with me, FlyPiker. My personal goal as an angler is to catch and release a 40"+ pike within Minnesota south of a line that zig zags a bit going from Fargo to Park Rapids, to Grand Rapids, to Duluth. If I can catch it on a fly rod I will be even more ecstatic. I do not expect that everyone else shares this goal nor do I expect to be able to fish any lake in the described area and be able to complete that goal. In addition, I also have a goal of being able keep enough small pike two to three times a year to pickle some. I also keep a few pike (roughly 6-10 fish per year) to fillet and fry in a pan - my personal preferred size for harvest is 24-26 inches. I have only been dark house spearing two times in my life, and have not harvested any fish this way as I couldn't hit anything! I did have fun with the experience though and would like to do it more. Finally, the last goal is to decrease the amount of lakes that have an abundance of small northern pike (and typically stunted panfish - though this is not always the case).

So now that you can see where I'm coming from, let's start with the grand goal that I hope we can all agree on. It is my opinion that the MN DNR should have the goal of creating and sustaining healthy fisheries throughout the state. Again I sincerely hope that we can all agree on that one. As it pertains to the management of northern pike and what I personally would like to see the DNR have as a goal; the opportunity to catch trophy pike (40"+ ) within an hours drive throughout MN. However, I do realize that this may not be possible in every area of the state. Opportunities to harvest northern pike at a sustainable level through legal means should also be available; through both angling and dark house spearing. Your goal may be different then mine - that is okay, assuming that we still agree that the primary goal of the MN DNR should be to sustain and/or create healthy fisheries.

So now we get to the big question - how do we meet the goal. In other words what regulations will help us achieve and maintain these goals? Let's assume that for the most part, most lakes in our state have a healthy predator/prey population. However, there are also many lakes that have an abundance of small (<24") northern pike. As I am not a fisheries biologists I am going to keep my proposed regulations as simple as possible and leave the hard work and math up to people who have much more knowledge on that subject. So here goes some amazing vagueness:

- a general statewide regulation on northern pike (ie 3 fish w/ one over 30")

-special regulations on certain lakes with an abundance of small pike (similar to the proposed regulations for the North Central area)

-special regulations on lakes w/ trophy potential but are unable to reach that goal with current regulations

-the tag idea is also one worth looking into, but I am not familiar enough with the system to comment much on it

The lakes with special regulations would be chosen by area fisheries managers based upon creating healthy, sustainable fisheries in those given bodies of water. If a lake does not have the forage base or spawning habitat available to sustain a trophy population it should not be treated as such. There are also those lakes that have a ton of spawning habitat, lots of small forage, but for reasons such as frequent winter kills or summer heat (lack of oxygen) or other reasons, are not capable of producing a sustainable population of "harvestable" pike (we'll say between 24" - 28" just for giggles). Placing regulations on those lakes would be a waste of time. As stated above it would be the responsibility of the area fisheries managers to determine which, if any, lakes should be under special regulations based upon creating healthy lake systems and fisheries.

So now a lot of people are saying, "you just want it to stay the same." My reply, pretty much, just some tweaks here and there.

So the conclusion on my rant. I think we should trust the areas fisheries managers, who have more experience with the lakes within their jurisdictions (not sure if that would be the proper terminology), to make the right decisions. Particularly over the lawmakers who are more concerned with securing the next election than they are creating healthy sustainable ecosystems. Instead of making every lake across a third of the state the same, we should address the waters that need to be, and can be effectively altered through changes in human behavior.

Congratulations if you made it through all of that. I didn't plan on such a long winded post. My apologies. My hope was to get more people thinking of viable solutions instead of fighting over who has the "correct" opinion or fish capturing method. As entertaining as it was I'd rather watch it on a stupid reality show with attractive women then imagining a bunch of dudes sitting at their computers

[CANOPY SAM]

My personal opinion is not a popular one. Not amongst anyone on either side of the dark house door....

1. Reopen ALL lakes in MN to spearing.

2. Statewide 30"+ protected slot. "Trophy" fish stay in the system, and those who spear will still get to participate in their sport.

3. Barbless hooks on all lures

4. Circle hooks on all bait rigs.

First let me say I am a musky fishermen, and a pike fishermen, AND I've been known to spear a fish or two over the years. I do not belong to any associations, nor do I advocate for any of them. I'm just an average Joe outdoorsmen.

In regard to the quote above, I don't know if I'd be so quick to say this wouldn't be popular. I think this actually makes perfect sense.

I read this thread from beginning to end this evening, and if you pull out all the back-biting and arguing, you can actually find about a dozen really good, level-headed, forward thinking ideas in here. What is posted above is actually a pretty good idea.

I can understand why someone, or anyone for that matter, would still want to keep one trophy pike, but then again, these are the fish that we ALL want to see and catch, so wouldn't it ultimately be better to just put ALL the big ones back, and just have a graphite replica made? However any sized pike is killed, it's a guarantee that it can't get any bigger, right?

And I have to agree with the earlier posts in regard to the "idea" of greatly increasing the bag limit on small fish is good in theory, but I too honestly wonder if it will really have the intended impact in the long run.

Even learning to efficiently clean several small pike might not make too many folks keep more small pike. Let's face it. They are some seriously stinky little slimers. They can be messy to clean regardless of your ability to remove all the bones, and I'm just not completely convinced that more people will harvest a LOT more small pike, even if it is legal.

I'm fortunate to live just an hour from Lake of the Woods, so I really don't have a lot of skin in this game. If I'm fishing for big pike on LOTW, and I'm NOT catching a 40+ inch fish, I'm probably doing something wrong. Never-the-less, I do, from time to time, fish other inland lakes that seem to have an abundance of small pike. They also have pretty good sized pike, and even trophy pike. I honestly think MOST lakes in Minnesota still have trophy pike, but the average angler just doesn't know how to find and catch them.

I agree that good management is needed to protect and improve our pike fishing in Minnesota. This can be said about pretty much any game species in the state. But the point can't be diminished that SO many people today have grossly exaggerated expectations every time they take to the waters and woods. Many EXPECT to see trophy game on a routine basis. This is simply unrealistic. If people would just realize, and appreciate the rarity of true trophy game, and keep their ridiculous expectations in check, they'd enjoy their outdoor experiences so much more!

I mean honestly guys, when was the last time you heard anyone say their hunting and fishing, or anything for that matter, was "good enough"? Nowadays, it seems, NOTHING is ever good enough!

Please quit the arguing about who's right, and who's wrong guys. Its not entertaining. Its old, and dry, and just annoying at this point. Offer positive ideas. Make educated, factual observations, or keep your thoughts to yourselves.

[walleye101]

- a general statewide regulation on northern pike (ie 3 fish w/ one over 30")

-special regulations on certain lakes with an abundance of small pike (similar to the proposed regulations for the North Central area)

-special regulations on lakes w/ trophy potential but are unable to reach that goal with current regulations

-the tag idea is also one worth looking into, but I am not familiar enough with the system to comment much on it

This plan is individual lake management with special regulations designed to fit specific management needs. It is exactly where pike management was heading before the 100 lake cap.

[walleye101]

My personal opinion is not a popular one. Not amongst anyone on either side of the dark house door....

1. Reopen ALL lakes in MN to spearing.

2. Statewide 30"+ protected slot. "Trophy" fish stay in the system, and those who spear will still get to participate in their sport.

3. Barbless hooks on all lures

4. Circle hooks on all bait rigs.

1. This is happening already.

2. This is not a protected slot but a maximum size limit, as proposed for the NE pike management zone. It can be effective there because those lakes are still have large pike to protect, and are still producing new large pike to replace natural mortality. A 30" minimum in most of the rest of the state would be largely ineffective since there are very few fish to protect and very few new fish recruiting to that size range.

[walleye101]

For clarification there is only one protected slot limit in the proposal. That is for the NC zone. The other zones are proposed for minimum size limit in the South and a maximum size limit in the NE. This clarification is not to be nit-picky but these are very different regulations proposed to meet very different management objectives for the three zones.

[Mr Special]

I couldn't agree more.

18 inch northern = 12 inch boneless filet = deliciousness

[merkman]

I honestly think MOST lakes in Minnesota still have trophy pike, but the average angler just doesn't know how to find and catch them.

I agree that good management is needed to protect and improve our pike fishing in Minnesota. This can be said about pretty much any game species in the state. But the point can't be diminished that SO many people today have grossly exaggerated expectations every time they take to the waters and woods. Many EXPECT to see trophy game on a routine basis. This is simply unrealistic. If people would just realize, and appreciate the rarity of true trophy game, and keep their ridiculous expectations in check, they'd enjoy their outdoor experiences so much more!

I mean honestly guys, when was the last time you heard anyone say their hunting and fishing, or anything for that matter, was "good enough"? Nowadays, it seems, NOTHING is ever good enough!

These are the wisest words said in this entire thread.

And no amount of additional regulations will ever change that.

.

[20lbSloughShark]

I agree that some people have way too high of expectations. The thing I don't agree with is that every lake in MN produces trophy fish. This is simply not true. In central MN I don't know of a single person that regularly gets trophy pike. I'm talking 40" plus. Sure they happen, but nobody except maybe the guides that go out every day get even one a year. One a decade is more like it. A 30" pike is a big pike in central MN. Go to a place like LOTW, rainy, upper red lake, or any other real trophy lakes and you can easily get multiple 40" pike a week. Central MN has had a good pike population in the past, and it has been so over fished all that is left is lakes full of hammer handles. Its fine to disagree on the solution, but I don't understand how anyone could ignore the problem.

[CANOPY SAM]

Not ignoring it Sloughshark, just looking at it a different way.

Leech Lake has a pile of big fish it. So do many of the surrounding lakes.

Cass Lake, and Winnie both have big pike.

The Upper and Central Mississippi are known to have big pike.

Rush Lake, Ottertail, and Gull Lakes all have nice pike.

Mille Lacs has a pile of big pike.

The Crow Wing Chain is full of giant pike.

Pokegema and numerous lakes around Grand Rapids all have big pike.

And how many unmentioned lakes in between? There are even numerous lakes in and around the Twin Cities that are known to have trophy sized pike!

I just tend to look at the glass half full, rather then half empty.

Yes, the northern Tier of Minnesota has markedly more opportunities for seeing and catching trophy sized pike, but that doesn't mean there aren't any within a few hours of where you live.

Trophy fish just aren't that easy to find everywhere you go, but we're doggone lucky to have what we have in Minnesota, and anyone that says our fishing isn't what it used to be in the "good old days" hasn't spent much time on the water in the last few years.

I'm all for protecting our resources. I'm just not sure that killing more small fish is the answer to making more big fish.

[creepworm]

Not ignoring it Sloughshark, just looking at it a different way.

Leech Lake has a pile of big fish it. So do many of the surrounding lakes.

Cass Lake, and Winnie both have big pike.

The Upper and Central Mississippi are known to have big pike.

Rush Lake, Ottertail, and Gull Lakes all have nice pike.

Mille Lacs has a pile of big pike.

The Crow Wing Chain is full of giant pike.

Pokegema and numerous lakes around Grand Rapids all have big pike.

And how many unmentioned lakes in between? There are even numerous lakes in and around the Twin Cities that are known to have trophy sized pike!

You just named the premier lakes in MN. Lakes such as these are not exactly common place in southern MN. I can name dozens of lakes where a 24+ inch pike is something you take notice of and a 30+ inch pike is a HUGE pike. You can catch dozens of pike in a day and the average size will be 20 inches. Something has to be done on these lakes because the small pike are having a negative impact on the entire fishery.

[creepworm]

I'm all for protecting our resources. I'm just not sure that killing more small fish is the answer to making more big fish.

In many cases, it is. I invite you to read up on biomass and how it relates to fisheries.

[going4it]

I would say the size of pike on leech has gone down a lot the last few years as well. Use to be quite common to have multiple 30+ inch pike in a week. It's been several years since I've even caught 2 in the same week now and I fish this lake about 10-15 weeks a year.

[Nick Kuhn]

I'm all for protecting our resources. I'm just not sure that killing more small fish is the answer to making more big fish.

[walleye101]

Nick,

That is a fairly accurate depiction of recruitment, however there would not be a steady declining slope through all inch groups. Depending on when the sampling occurred (say mid summer) there would be a bulge of age 0 pike around 4-5 inches, then a shorter bulge of age 1 pike around 10-12 and so on...... but your point is accurate that recruitment will be constantly be replacing the 16-22 inch pike as fast as anglers remove them. That is why the NC proposal does not rely on angler removal to deplete small pike. It is the increase in medium pike, protected by the protected slot limit that will put some suppression on small pike, both those you see in a typical size distribution and those you don't, below the gear vulnerability.

[Nick Kuhn]

Nick,

That is a fairly accurate depiction of recruitment, however there would not be a steady declining slope through all inch groups. Depending on when the sampling occurred (say mid summer) there would be a bulge of age 0 pike around 4-5 inches, then a shorter bulge of age 1 pike around 10-12 and so on...... but your point is accurate that recruitment will be constantly be replacing the 16-22 inch pike as fast as anglers remove them. That is why the NC proposal does not rely on angler removal to deplete small pike. It is the increase in medium pike, protected by the protected slot limit that will put some suppression on small pike, both those you see in a typical size distribution and those you don't, below the gear vulnerability.

I realize this, but for visualization sake I did not turn it into an exponential and stack all the fish on one age. Then I would have had to use a logarithmic scale to compare to a linear one, which doesn't work. So I spread them out over all the lengths.