Posting Land/Handling Trespassers and Neighbors

[BLACKJACK]

I've kept this thread in mind as I've been driving around central and westcentral MN. I see plenty of posted signs...but I'd bet less than 5% of them have legible signatures or other personal information. I guess if I'm one of the sticklers for details there's ALL KINDS of property for me to go trespass on.

Since this post came out I've been studying 'No Hunt/No Trespass' signs, I have yet to see one thats dated. Some have name and phone number but not all. I guess it boils down to your own ethics and whether you want to be confronted by a landowner.

I think there is also a big difference between large tracks of land up north and relatively ag land in the rest of the state but I think both the landowner and the hunters have some responsibility, the landowner to put out enough visible signs that a hunter can find them, meaning more in thick areas, and the hunter should be responsible enough to try and obey them, whether they are 100% correct or not. If the landowner puts out signs that means he doesn't want you on his land!!!

[BobT]

Since this post came out I've been studying 'No Hunt/No Trespass' signs, I have yet to see one thats dated. Some have name and phone number but not all. I guess it boils down to your own ethics and whether you want to be confronted by a landowner.

I think there is also a big difference between large tracks of land up north and relatively ag land in the rest of the state but I think both the landowner and the hunters have some responsibility, the landowner to put out enough visible signs that a hunter can find them, meaning more in thick areas, and the hunter should be responsible enough to try and obey them, whether they are 100% correct or not. If the landowner puts out signs that means he doesn't want you on his land!!!

The difficulty where I hunt is that it's not always easy to determine who the land owner is. There are tracts of land that are just that with no visible building site or borders and when you encounter a posting it may or may not be valid. Having the landowner's contact information on the signs makes it possible for me to get in touch and ask permission. Without this information, I don't even know for sure the area truly is private land. There are also times when I've found myself on private land that was not adequately marked. I had crossed the border without my knowledge until I came upon the back side of the signs. If it is so important to the landowner that I stay off his land, it would seem he has to take some responsibility to be sure I know where his land is.

[nofishfisherman]

The difficulty where I hunt is that it's not always easy to determine who the land owner is. There are tracts of land that are just that with no visible building site or borders and when you encounter a posting it may or may not be valid. Having the landowner's contact information on the signs makes it possible for me to get in touch and ask permission. Without this information, I don't even know for sure the area truly is private land.

Don't you have a Plat book to reference? That is the exact purpose of a plat book.

I hunt all public land and the plat book is always in my car when I am out scouting or hunting. I may not know if the borders are exactly correct but in 30 seconds I can tell if the land is actually private or if someone illegally posted public land. The book also gives the owners name. With a little research I've been able to find and contact land owners in the past with nothing more than the info provided in the Plat book.

If I do come across public land that I know for a fact has been illegally posted then I assume that some sort of jack wagon must be on the land and I want nothing to do with them. I'm certainly not looking for a confrontation with people who are more than likely carrying guns. Let the CO handle the situation, thats what he's paid for.

[mntatonka]

There's a good chance that everything you could need is here: http://www.mngeo.state.mn.us/cty_contacts.html

Or search google for the county mn followed by GIS. Such as "Cook County mn gis". The maps should show property lines and owners, although they do tend to be a little cumbersome.

Another option is Hunt GPS maps (http://www.huntinggpsmaps.com/). They have a pretty decent program that works on computers, mobile devices, and GPS as well.

[NWKR]

The difficulty where I hunt is that it's not always easy to determine who the land owner is. There are tracts of land that are just that with no visible building site or borders and when you encounter a posting it may or may not be valid. Having the landowner's contact information on the signs makes it possible for me to get in touch and ask permission. Without this information, I don't even know for sure the area truly is private land. There are also times when I've found myself on private land that was not adequately marked. I had crossed the border without my knowledge until I came upon the back side of the signs. If it is so important to the landowner that I stay off his land, it would seem he has to take some responsibility to be sure I know where his land is.

Did you try to look at the link I posted?

http://gis.stlouiscountymn.gov/planningflexviewers/County_Explorer/

It takes 15 minutes to get a list of land owners for a few 1,000 acre area. Approximate property lines are overlayed over a google earth type image.

Also just an FYI for everyone; a 40 that was in the area I selected has the owner name as "Legion of Doom" probably a good idea to stay away from that one.

[nofishfisherman]

I think this all shows that there are plenty of tools available to help you determine what land is public and private.

When you see posted land there really is no excuse that allows you to claim that you didn't know who owned it or if it was really private land.

A good rule of thumb is that if you see posted land just assume that it really is private land and stay off. You'll be correct far more often.

[harvey lee]

Brittman states--Wyndmere CO Tim Phalen said this ? I really doubt it.

The last time I had Tim out for a trespasser, he had to check the signs in the area the trespasser were and asked to see all the posted signs, when we went to the third gate, Tim looked at this sign and said Tom, this sign has a small piece missing from the corner and if the guy who you are charging brings this up if he crossed by this sign, he will more than likely get off. Tim had to get the GPS cords of all the posted signs in the location for the court trial.

So I said next time I call you, make sure I get out there and check all the signs for their condition before I call you. Tim said I did not say for you to do that but you can do what you want to.

I know this sounds crazy Brittman but, this is exactly what he said.

if you cannot believe me, call Tim and asked him if he told Tom Hatlestad at the CP ranch this. if you need his phone number for his cell, PM me and I will PM back with his number. Tell Tim this was from approx. 2 years ago.

Tim also told me it is very hard to convict for trespass in North Dakota with the laws as written.

I am not making any of this up, all factual.

[BobT]

My point is that you're all expecting me to go out of my way to enable the landowners to avoid following the rules. The law is clear about how to post private property. I am a property owner and if I want to post it I will post it according to the rules. If I don't then I must approach the trespasser and ask them to leave and I will be sure to be pleasant about it even if it happens to be one of you guys. The law does not say that every hunter must obtain a plat book and seek out landowners. The law is also clear that land not legally posted is open to public hunting. If I am asked to stay off of someone's private property, the law says I must oblige and I will do just that. There's no reason for the land owner to be belligerent about it, just plainly inform me that I on private property and to kindly stay off. It's not that difficult and he won't get any flack from me for doing so. I respect his right to privacy. Plat maps don't provide GPS coordinate data to follow either so when I'm two miles from anything in the forest, that plat map is of no value beyond fire starter.

At this I guess I'm just going to have disagree and leave it at that.

[deerminator]

The law in Minnesota?

From DNR Regulation book:

"Any entry onto private property without permission is considered trespass." Regardless of no trespassing signs.

[CaptainMusky]

The law in Minnesota?

From DNR Regulation book:

"Any entry onto private property without permission is considered trespass." Regardless of no trespassing signs.

yep that's what scrambles my brain about how some here think its "legal" to trespass because it isn't posted or "legally" posted. Its clear to me from the regs. Some people just need to READ them.

[smsmith]

My point is that you're all expecting me to go out of my way to enable the landowners to avoid following the rules.

No, my point is that you're expecting landowners to go out every year to sign and date their posted signs. Most landowners (I'd bet) make the assumption that if they go to the trouble to purchase and post signs on THEIR property that they've done what the law requires.

Then you, the stickler, comes along and says "hey, these signs don't meet the letter of the law" (even though the DNR regs make it appear that no such signing and dating is required) and go trespassing. THEN you expect a landowner to cordially and politely greet you and demurely ask you to not continue to trespass. If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the fact you've never had an ugly confrontation leading to bodily injury of any kind. I'd also bet that you have lived most, or all, of your life in urban or suburban areas.

[yakfisher]

The law in Minnesota?

From DNR Regulation book:

"Any entry onto private property without permission is considered trespass." Regardless of no trespassing signs.

yep that's what scrambles my brain about how some here think its "legal" to trespass because it isn't posted or "legally" posted. Its clear to me from the regs. Some people just need to READ them.

So your suggesting that the DNR handbook legally supersedes the actual statutes of the state of Minnesota?

The remainder of my comment is directed at the rest of this thread.

Most of you feigning outrage have not actually read and digested the arguments here. No one has suggested that anyone go tromping around willy nilly wherever one chooses. The argument is that certain types of NON-AGRICULTURE LAND are accessible, according to MN statute,if not posted.

If you don't like that, POST YOUR LAND and post it legally according to the statute.

That is the sum of the arguments made. No one has said they disregard improperly posted signs and no one has suggested they intentionally trespass on land posted not quite to the statute.

The people here are not your enemy.

A few have suggested they may shoot on sight, big talk for a keyboard warrior. Don't forget most of your law breaking miscreants will be well armed. Shoot true, manslaughter carries a lesser term than murder. Or course you probably should not make veiled threats on a public forum if your intent is to harm trespassers.

Good luck to all this fall and remember to respect the law and each other.

[smsmith]

1. No one has suggested that anyone go tromping around willy nilly wherever one chooses.

2. A few have suggested they may shoot on sight

1. you must have missed the part where one poster said he'd disregard any signs that he felt were posted incorrectly and would continue to go where he chose.

2. where?

[yakfisher]

1. No one has suggested that anyone go tromping around willy nilly wherever one chooses.

2. A few have suggested they may shoot on sight

1. you must have missed the part where one poster said he'd disregard any signs that he felt were posted incorrectly and would continue to go where he chose.

Actually he stated that was on illegally posted PUBLIC land

2. where?

Well, you yourself alluded to it 2 or 3 times whiles making passive aggressive posts. Go ahead and search your name you'll find what I am talking about.

Just remember in these confrontations you will not be the only armed one-who-thinks-I-am-silly standing his ground. Good luck, I wish you well.

[hockeybc69]

15 pages about posting land?.... Wow. Is it that bad out there?

I have run trail cams for almost 10 years now, and only once caught someone on cam that I wasnt sure who he was. It was a guy that looked about 75 with gopher traps on his ATV...

I have got a neighboring landowner on his horse, the county tax assessor, a relative in his pickup, neighbor on his ATV(looking for his beef cattle that got out) and my grandpa(rest his soul).

I guess I am really lucky. I am quite amazed at the lengths some of you think you have to go through to keep strangers off your land.

[PFUNK]

1. you must have missed the part where one poster said he'd disregard any signs that he felt were posted incorrectly and would continue to go where he chose.

As he is legally able to do according to the statutes. If it is not posted as required by law, one is able to access it.

I haven't commented on this thread yet but will now that I have read it all. I for one will not enter posted land whether or not it appears to be posted according to the letter of the law. Would just as soon avoid the confrontation that is likely to occur as a result of it.

However, as a hunter I would sure appreciate it if land owners DID post their land according to the law. Makes it much easier if you slap your name and number on there so I can locate you easily to seek permission. If you take just a little time as a landowner to add that info, I think you will see a few less people going on your land without talking to you. Most hunters aren't out there looking for a sign that doesn't comply exactly with the letter of the law. They just want to be able to seek and gain (or be denied) permission in a timely manner that doesn't mean running around from house to house, to internet GIS data, to plat book to try to figure out who they need to talk to. I know it bums me when I find an old shredded posted sign, sometimes just small pieces left hanging at the stapled corners or even just the board the sign was once attached to, and I can't find the landowner. To me, that looks like the land used to be owned by someone who posted it or it is currently owned by someone who really doesnt care too much about the land usage. But still, I stay off because the confrontation that I fear could occur.

I think it is pretty simple for both sides, and no one should have any issues with doing their part in this. Hunters just ask that landowners who wish to deny access make it be known via well marked boundaries with contact information listed. And for those landowners who wish not be bothered, purchase signs that say so or write in "Do not bother to ask permission".

Landowners are simply asking hunters to stay out without permission, and the obvious way to do so is to post your land and add your info if all you truly want from us hunters is to politely ask permission. Why not make it easy for us to do so? Hell, if posting is a big chore ask the hunters who you give permission every year to help upkeep the posted signs. I know I would be more than happy to do that for any landowner who lets me hunt year to year. It's the least I could do to say thanks.

My opinion is that it isn't too much to ask to just post the land clearly if you don't want people on it. The ones who will continue to trespass if the land is clearly marked are the ones who are gonna do whatever the hell they want to do regardless of posted signs or statutes. I'll continue to stay off your land even if you have shredded old posted signs that aren't legible, but that's because of what I was taught growing up. If it isnt yours, don't mess with it. However, according to the statutes, how I read them anyway, I'm able to enter your non-ag land if you don't have it posted legibly. As a landowner, do yourself a favor and don't rely upon every hunter out there to be the most ethical, respectful, patient person in the world. Just follow the law and post it, just like you want the hunters to follow the laws and not trespass.

[yakfisher]

As he is legally able to do according to the statutes. If it is not posted as required by law, one is able to access it.

I haven't commented on this thread yet but will now that I have read it all. I for one will not enter posted land whether or not it appears to be posted according to the letter of the law. Would just as soon avoid the confrontation that is likely to occur as a result of it.

However, as a hunter I would sure appreciate it if land owners DID post their land according to the law. Makes it much easier if you slap your name and number on there so I can locate you easily to seek permission. If you take just a little time as a landowner to add that info, I think you will see a few less people going on your land without talking to you. Most hunters aren't out there looking for a sign that doesn't comply exactly with the letter of the law. They just want to be able to seek and gain (or be denied) permission in a timely manner that doesn't mean running around from house to house, to internet GIS data, to plat book to try to figure out who they need to talk to. I know it bums me when I find an old shredded posted sign, sometimes just small pieces left hanging at the stapled corners or even just the board the sign was once attached to, and I can't find the landowner. To me, that looks like the land used to be owned by someone who posted it or it is currently owned by someone who really doesnt care too much about the land usage. But still, I stay off because the confrontation that I fear could occur.

I think it is pretty simple for both sides, and no one should have any issues with doing their part in this. Hunters just ask that landowners who wish to deny access make it be known via well marked boundaries with contact information listed. And for those landowners who wish not be bothered, purchase signs that say so or write in "Do not bother to ask permission".

Landowners are simply asking hunters to stay out without permission, and the obvious way to do so is to post your land and add your info if all you truly want from us hunters is to politely ask permission. Why not make it easy for us to do so? Hell, if posting is a big chore ask the hunters who you give permission every year to help upkeep the posted signs. I know I would be more than happy to do that for any landowner who lets me hunt year to year. It's the least I could do to say thanks.

My opinion is that it isn't too much to ask to just post the land clearly if you don't want people on it. The ones who will continue to trespass if the land is clearly marked are the ones who are gonna do whatever the hell they want to do regardless of posted signs or statutes. I'll continue to stay off your land even if you have shredded old posted signs that aren't legible, but that's because of what I was taught growing up. If it isnt yours, don't mess with it. However, according to the statutes, how I read them anyway, I'm able to enter your non-ag land if you don't have it posted legibly. As a landowner, do yourself a favor and don't rely upon every hunter out there to be the most ethical, respectful, patient person in the world. Just follow the law and post it, just like you want the hunters to follow the laws and not trespass.

Very poignant, pretty much what I think. Sorry my Richard-ness snuck out in my posts, just getting tired with the tone in this thread.

[B-man715]

Very well put Pfunk.

What you said almost makes too much sense

[i'majigger]

After reading all these posts I cannot figure out what everyone is complaining about. If a person buys a piece of land, pays the taxes and would like to hunt the land by himself why is it so tough to abide by his wishes of posting it no hunting? Whether his contact info is on the signs or not I would think it would be clear to others to move on and find somewhere else to hunt. It's as if someone see's a no hunting sign they think there must be something really good in there and I just have to get in. Minnesota has thousands of acres of public hunting land so I know there are plenty of places to hunt as I use them myself. and most of the time I am the only person there. Yes it is possible to walk onto someones private land when in the woods, I have had it happen to me, when this happens I take the shortest route to get off this land and make sure that I don't do it again. No crying that it didn't have a sign every 50 feet with the landowners life history on it, I was trespassing and I was in the wrong. A lot of this posting has happened because of a few that abused the privilege of using someones land and leaving gates open or driving across the land or other things that the landowners did not care for, so now this is what we have to live with. I say if it's posted look somewhere else!

[CaptainMusky]

So your suggesting that the DNR handbook legally supersedes the actual statutes of the state of Minnesota?

What do the statutes say about game and fish laws? Those regulations are put in place for the purposes of managing hunting/fishing season/regulations.

If people abided by them then this discussion wouldnt have lasted more than a couple comments.

[PFUNK]

The hunting regs say you can't enter LEGALLY POSTED non-agriculture land without permission. Therefore, if it is not posted according to the law, you are able to enter and recreate upon it.

Now as I stated earlier, I for one would not enter that land even if it wasn't posted to the letter of the law. It is enough evidence for me to know the landowner doesn't want me in there. However, I could be wrong and those could be old posted signs from a previous owner, in which case I am missing out on an opportunity.

The next guy might come along and not have the same ETHICS as I do and he may go ahead and enter the land to hunt it. Landowner comes along and an argument ensues. If the landowner wants to actually prosecute the guy, I would guess he will never win his case. He didn't meet his requirements to post the non-ag land as required by law.

This is why I wish land owners would follow the letter of the law when it comes to posting. If you do that and you catch someone trespassing, PLEASE prosecute to the fullest extent you can, because those people are the ones who truly DISREGARD the laws. The guys who enter your land that has old posted signs that you can't read... they may not have the greatest ethics, but I don't think you can complain about them too much because you didn't do your part in the posting.

[yakfisher]

Since apparently some missed this the first time here it is again. This is the statute, the handbook is a summation of this rule with recommendations promote a good relationship between hunters and land owners.

Here is the actual statue regarding hunters and trespassing.

The more I read it the more I see various ways of interpreting it. No matter what your view on it is you could probably find evidence supporting your opinion.

The one thing that bugs me about how its written is that it doesn't explicitly grant hunters rights to trespass AND hunt on unposted land but it also doesn't explicitly restrict it either unless I am missing a section.

It does give two exceptions where you CAN legally access unposted land without permission so because of that I assume there must be other times when you CAN'T access unposted land without permission otherwise what point is there to explicitly list exceptions. But its not clearly stated.

Only thing that is clear is that posting the land is the only way to completely restrict access.

[Getanet]

Ah, what the heck, may as well throw another wrinkle into this thread and fire the comments back up...

I was always under the impression that you didn't need permission to enter private land to retrieve a wounded deer, but had to leave once you found it. I've never actually had this experience, just thought that was the case. The reg book reads, "A person on foot may, without permission, enter land that is not posted to retrieve a wounded animal that was lawfully shot, but may not remain on the land after being told to leave."

So, since the regs specifically refer to land that isn't posted, if you wound one that enters posted land you can't enter it unless given permission, correct? And you can't reach the owner for whatever reason, you just have to leave it, correct?

[smsmith]

So, since the regs specifically refer to land that isn't posted, if you wound one that enters posted land you can't enter it unless given permission, correct? And you can't reach the owner for whatever reason, you just have to leave it, correct?

That is my understanding

[harvey lee]

I am not sure exactly how the law reads in regards to pursuing a wounded animal but I have always had the understanding that if an animal you shoot goes onto another's land, you can enter to retrieve it unarmed.

I would think it would be best to ask the landowner if you can locate him to at a minimum, let them know you have a wounded deer in their woods. He may have others out there hunting and when they know u are going to be in there, it is a much safer situation for all.

I know or neighbors in ND and I also will as ask each other if it is ok to go and retrieve a wounded deer as we then know who is in the woods and the ones hunting in the woods know others are in the woods for nothing more than safety.

We have done this numerous times and it works out very well for both parties involved, does not take that long to ask and let the neighbor know you would like to go in to retrieve a wounded animal.

Most times we end up helping each other recover the deer. Yes, there are those times when one cannot locate the land owner and that is another issue.

I agree with you Pfunk. It's to bad that there are those who believe they can do whatever they choose on another's land. We post everything with name and phone number and many do ask and some do get to hunt. We are very careful of how many are hunting to eliminate any accidents with others not knowing who else is in the woods, simply a safety issue with us.

It's too bad that because of a few, that why we have the laws and issues we have, over a few who believe they can do what they can or simply do whatever they please, that surely is far from the majority of the hunters out there afield.

Ethics play a huge role here and it does seem that ethics for some is a thing of the past.

WE are very lucky to have the hunters we have as they all follow the rules we set perfect and they are always welcome to come back as long as they follow a simple set of rules.

We have great neighbors when it comes to deer hunting, we all talk and it works very well.

Few years back I wounded a buck and it ran onto the neighbors woods and they also hunt that woods. That evening I went over to the neighbors and asked if it was ok if I and a few others went into that woods in the morning to recover a deer, he said, no problem at all, we were hunting in there but we will hunt elsewhere until you are done finding the deer. very nice of them to do that as we did not have to walk around in thick cover looking for a deer and at the same time worry about another shooting at something moving in the brush, it happens.