Audit Push: Time To Act!

[Farmsfulltime]

Sounds like the agenda is clear ,, but hidden for now in other words sell them on population smoke screen and then push aprs , I knew there was more to the story change the publics perception of deer and deer hunting to accomplish OUR goals

[BRULEDRIFTER]

How about looking at it like this....

(Just to start with, I have always been and always will be against Mandatory APR regulations).

By supporting the Audit, you are, at this point, simply supporting a method of checks and balances with how our DNR agency, that we pay for, is conducting assessments of the state deer herd and making sure these methods are still valid and that the best science available is used.

Deer populations are in the tank in a vast majority of the state right now and there is plenty of blame to go around. Let's essentially start over with a clean slate while we rebuild and (to quote the Vikings)let's get this right!

If/when populations rebound and population modeling is shown to be sound, then we can get back to bickering on whether or not to institute mandatory APR regs. Given how cyclical the deer herd is, it's really not ever likely to become much of a threat, aside from pockets throughout the state. And if by chance APRs are instated, well that would be a bummer for us that don't want them, but on the other hand, at least that means there is a robust enough deer population that we may actually be able to go hunting and possibly see a deer or 2 every few sits to keep us and our future generations interested in participating.

Up here in the northland, it's a grim year again this year. As much as I love being out on stand, I really have to question if going out to stare at squirrels and chick-a-dees for hours on end is the best way to spend my fall. It's a very good possiblity I will not even see a deer on stand this season. I spend a lot of time in the woods and on the road, and seeing a deer or deer sign at all has become a very uncommon sight. Yes, the last 2 winters and wolves have taken their toll, but the blatant disregard to the improper management by the state over the years along with that is something that needs to be addressed.

I cannot for the life of me see where people can keep blindly defending the DNR these days. I know I used to be like that. But over the last handful of years there just seems to be more and more evidence that the suits in St. Paul and some of the area supervisors clearly are out of touch and/or simply don't know what they are doing or don't care.

Sign the petition! Let's institute some change that can maybe get the ball rolling in the right direction again.

[96trigger]

Quote:

If/when populations rebound and population modeling is shown to be sound, then we can get back to bickering on whether or not to institute mandatory APR regs. Given how cyclical the deer herd is, it's really not ever likely to become much of a threat, aside from pockets throughout the state. And if by chance APRs are instated, well that would be a bummer for us that don't want them, but on the other hand, at least that means there is a robust enough deer population that we may actually be able to go hunting and possibly see a deer or 2 every few sits to keep us and our future generations interested in participating.

I agree with you 100% on this. The population in SEMN, in my area at least, is stable. We can see deer on most sits. Seldom do we not see anything and most of the time that is weather related. When taking the survey, the question was asked if we wanted to see more deer. Well of course we want to see more deer who wouldn't. It doesn't mean the population in SEMN is as bad as it is in the rest of the state. (Which I believe by the sounds of all of you, is pretty bad). All it means is that in many areas of the southeast, we would like to see the population increase. The DNR listened and the management and intensive harvest areas are vastly decreased. This should help the population rebound some, and continue to give hunters the opportunity to shoot deer. The southeast herd never got as decimated as other areas of the state due to over harvest. However, it is significantly lower than it was 10 years ago. My personal opinion is that too many years of intensive harvest is more to blame than APR, but I am not so ignorant or blind as to see that APR is a tool that will lower the deer population and has had an effect. In no way should APR even be discussed until the populations rebound. I believe you can go back in many of the APR discussions and see a general consensus on that among both groups.

[PurpleFloyd]

How will anyone know if an audit actually gets it right when the loudest group of hunters has proven that they are prone to change their definition of what is right at the drop of a hat.

Last year it was save small bucks and fill the freezer with does to have a balanced and healthy herd. This year it is don't shoot any does and I am not sure what they want you to do with the small bucks and next year one can only imagine what the trend du jour will be.

Maybe the DNR should hire one of those clairvoyant types so they can predict what a minority of hunters is going to be up in arms about next.

[PurpleFloyd]

Maybe we can reach a consensus on an I itiative like DBMT.

That means don't buy multiple tags.

If a group would do the posters and post on forums like they are for the MDDI, Then we could raise awareness of the idea that one Hunter group doesn't need 5 tags for each of themselves.

That coupled with the reduction in lottery permits would correct the problem without needing big brother to get involved. And hopefully we can all agree that less government involvement is a good thing.

[hockeybc69]

I like the idea PF.... How do you propose to get that type of message to the masses?

Then on top of that, get the buy in from them? All too many hunters have a "shoot to kill at all costs" mentality. I firmly believe that many people have no clue that deer are a finite resource....

[ANYFISH2]

That coupled with the reduction in lottery permits would correct the problem without needing big brother to get involved. And hopefully we can all agree that less government involvement is a good thing.

Purple, I think we all agree less government the better.

However, there is always going to DNR involvement, along with the fact that many hunters are not as intune with what is going on in the woods. They will take what the DNR says and does as what is really going on and they should be able to! That is why we ask for them to have the best data set and tools available. That way their word is completely credible. Thus more reason for the audit, It will help the DNR, hunters, and the deer herd.

[smsmith]

Maybe we can reach a consensus on an I itiative like DBMT.

That means don't buy multiple tags.

If a group would do the posters and post on forums like they are for the MDDI, Then we could raise awareness of the idea that one Hunter group doesn't need 5 tags for each of themselves.

That coupled with the reduction in lottery permits would correct the problem without needing big brother to get involved. And hopefully we can all agree that less government involvement is a good thing.

Lead the charge, see who follows.

[delcecchi]

....

Up here in the northland, it's a grim year again this year. As much as I love being out on stand, I really have to question if going out to stare at squirrels and chick-a-dees for hours on end is the best way to spend my fall. It's a very good possiblity I will not even see a deer on stand this season. I spend a lot of time in the woods and on the road, and seeing a deer or deer sign at all has become a very uncommon sight. Yes, the last 2 winters and wolves have taken their toll, but the blatant disregard to the improper management by the state over the years along with that is something that needs to be addressed.

...

Interesting. This summer at the cabin I saw a fair number of deer in the yard and while going for walks. I can't say that it was as many as last year (although it got so a guy had to watch where he walked on the lawn) it certainly was true that deer were around. This was near west end of lake vermilion

[Bureaucrat]

How will anyone know if an audit actually gets it right when the loudest group of hunters has proven that they are prone to change their definition of what is right at the drop of a hat.

Last year it was save small bucks and fill the freezer with does to have a balanced and healthy herd. This year it is don't shoot any does and I am not sure what they want you to do with the small bucks and next year one can only imagine what the trend du jour will be.

Maybe the DNR should hire one of those clairvoyant types so they can predict what a minority of hunters is going to be up in arms about next.

Were you at our secret meeting in the basement of the Alumni House at Winona State University? How did you get in? Nobody is allowed in unless they have this tatoo on their left butt cheek and know the password (which also changes every 60 seconds on a VPN token on their smartphone).

[Bureaucrat]

Sounds like the agenda is clear ,, but hidden for now in other words sell them on population smoke screen and then push aprs , I knew there was more to the story change the publics perception of deer and deer hunting to accomplish OUR goals

You caught us. Time to come clean. We're actually a rebranded sect of Moveon.org.

[PurpleFloyd]

How will anyone know if an audit actually gets it right when the loudest group of hunters has proven that they are prone to change their definition of what is right at the drop of a hat.

Last year it was save small bucks and fill the freezer with does to have a balanced and healthy herd. This year it is don't shoot any does and I am not sure what they want you to do with the small bucks and next year one can only imagine what the trend du jour will be.

Maybe the DNR should hire one of those clairvoyant types so they can predict what a minority of hunters is going to be up in arms about next.

[PurpleFloyd]

Maybe we can reach a consensus on an I itiative like DBMT.

That means don't buy multiple tags.

If a group would do the posters and post on forums like they are for the MDDI, Then we could raise awareness of the idea that one Hunter group doesn't need 5 tags for each of themselves.

That coupled with the reduction in lottery permits would correct the problem without needing big brother to get involved. And hopefully we can all agree that less government involvement is a good thing.

[PurpleFloyd]

Purple, I think we all agree less government the better.

[PurpleFloyd]

Then on top of that, get the buy in from them? All too many hunters have a "shoot to kill at all costs" mentality. I firmly believe that many people have no clue that deer are a finite resource....

Well, if that is the case, then an audit isn't going to be able to fix that and maybe it is the hunters, not the DNR that need to be audited.

[PurpleFloyd]

My conclusion is APR's were likely placed in SE MN to put additional pressure on the does. And they have accomplished just that. Biologically APRs shift harvest to the doe herd, and when you kill enough does, the herd shrinks.The herd reduction accelerated with the 4 on a side rule.

Yeah, I was actually at the secret DNR meeting in their secret underground chamber where they plotted to decimate the deer population around the spots where a few select individuals hunt. They came up with a plan to hand out 5-7 tags each to the hunters that bordered their properties in a secret study to see if they could ruin their lives. I still have the secret tattoo on my butt cheek,

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

Well, if that is the case, then an audit isn't going to be able to fix that and maybe it is the hunters, not the DNR that need to be audited.

Why is the DNR handing out permits like candy, when they shouldnt?

My wildlife manager and I have been in discussions.

He sent me harvest info and doesnt have any alarming info to show the demise we claim. Or so he says...

I just sent him an email pointing out the math he shared with me is wrong.

He said our overall harvest is down 26% from 2006 to 2013. It is in fact down 35% if one uses a calculator.

He said our buck harvest is down 12% from 2006 to 2013. Well, the buck harvest is down 25%.

The data is all in the annual harvest reports.

Why in 2007 was it decided to stablize the herd in 240, but we stayed intensive harvest for 2 more years after that??

Sure is nice that my guy managing our unit and making the decisions on season structures cant do simple math.... Audit anyone???

[Jameson]

hmmmmmmm....

QDMA lost many members for not supporting the MDDI.

Just saying.

[PurpleFloyd]

Why is the DNR handing out permits like candy, when they shouldnt?

[Bureaucrat]

PF, don't pretend that you know us and what we believe. I don't even know us and what we believe. That is other than the fact we're united in our cause to get some answers on how things are done. We're the MDDI crowd, nothing more.

We have all been very straight forward with what we're advocating. A few more fiery than others. But that's grass roots. We don't have conference calls, talking points, or PR people.

No one involved in the MDDI is covertly connected in any way. We're not a rebel group of QDMA, MDHA, Bluffland Whitetails or anything else. Most of us don't even know each other.

I cannot speak for anyone else involved in MDDI on this next point, but I will speak for myself. I personally despise QDMA and MDHA. I think they have been a tremendous waste of resources and a failure to their members and cause.

We've gone full circle on the fears and but-what-ifs about four times now. All points have been refuted and met with accusations of conspiracy to implement APRs, aggressive doe harvest, aggresive doe protection, pro-government expansion, greedy freezer filling and who knows what else (not you specifically). Somebody even accused me of being a pro-government guy, when in all actuality, I'm about the biggest knuckle headed libertarian out there.

Because the deer hunting is fine where you are, you have chosen to not support the rest of us. It's a free country man. Dig in them heels, and try your darnedest to stop us from trying to stave off the eradication of deer in our back yards.

[hockeybc69]

PF,

This years numbers of permits is not what I am talking about.

I just stated that in 2007 our stakeholders decided to stabilize our populations. Yet we stayed intensive for 2 more seasons.

There have been many other permit areas that went through similar management issues.

I dont believe for one second that this years tag allocations was done for any other reason than public pressure. They felt it a LOT, and responded.

Does the DNR truly believe there is an overall management problem? Absolutely not. Next year we will get thrown back to the wolves. (no pun intended)

Lets audit the management practices so we can better determine populations and harvest targets.

No splainin' to do here man. Did you not read what I just posted what our wildlife manager is doing and the fact he cant even send me accurate info? Thats clearly an issue and he is not alone with the fudging of numbers.

We were scheduled for a zero percent reduction in populations, but our harvest has fallen nearly 40%.... Can you please splain to me how thats possible?

[Jameson]

wind, rain, corn.

[Bureaucrat]

Quote:

However, there is always going to DNR involvement,

Yes, but that doesn't mean we have to increase their involvement any more than it is and it doesn't mean they cannot be worked with directly rather than hiding behind the audit committee. Approach them with your opinion and convince them you are right. Heck, they got APR passed in the SE so anything is possible.

[btheturkey]

What a bunch of Knuckleheads.

DNR scheduled 9% herd reduction and less than 10 years later the harvest is down 41%. And we sold more tags last year than the year we set the record harvest.

How can you argue the model and monitoring tools are out of whack and need looked at?

Hunters like having deer in the woods. Most hunters are not happy how many deer have been taken out of those woods.

If your hunting is still good, I get it, but to act is if a wrong has not been done by the agency charged with managing the resource is ridiculous.

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

wind, rain, corn.

I shall now stand down on my argument..... I had no idea it was that simple..