Meat Safety?

[deerminator]

So last weekend, we were having 20 people over on Saturday. Friday night, I put a big pork butt on the King Kooker and had it smoking at just over 200 from about 7 pm to midnight -- AND FELL ASLEEP FOR THE NIGHT. I woke up around 5 am and said a word that starts with S and ends with T about 20 times. I checked it and the meat was lukewarm and around 70 degrees. I decided not to chance it and drove to the grocery store immediately. Got several small butts. Started them up around 7 and they were done at about 6 that night. Perfect. One of the guys at the party told me I should have just kept going with the original butt. That as long as the meat doesn't drop below the 40s you shouldn't have a problem and he said "you threw the other meat away!!!" I guess I wanted to make sure I didn't have 20 severely ill people over $30 of meat. I looked online and couldn't find anything in regards to meat temps dropping, etc. Anyone have any insight on this?

[deerminator]

Also, I should add that my game plan was to smoke the butt for about 5 hours and then ease it into the oven at 200 at midnight until party time the following evening. Resting in cooler if necessary. So I hadn't enough fuel in the Kooker to go the entire evening.

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

For uncured meat, you need to make 40 to 140 in under 4 hours as a general rule of thumb. Good call on tossing it.

[PurpleFloyd]

So last weekend, we were having 20 people over on Saturday. Friday night, I put a big pork butt on the King Kooker and had it smoking at just over 200 from about 7 pm to midnight -- AND FELL ASLEEP FOR THE NIGHT. I woke up around 5 am and said a word that starts with S and ends with T about 20 times. I checked it and the meat was lukewarm and around 70 degrees. I decided not to chance it and drove to the grocery store immediately. Got several small butts. Started them up around 7 and they were done at about 6 that night. Perfect. One of the guys at the party told me I should have just kept going with the original butt. That as long as the meat doesn't drop below the 40s you shouldn't have a problem and he said "you threw the other meat away!!!" I guess I wanted to make sure I didn't have 20 severely ill people over $30 of meat. I looked online and couldn't find anything in regards to meat temps dropping, etc. Anyone have any insight on this?

Technically your friend was wrong. The "Danger Zone for food is between 40 and 135 degrees so the goal would be to get it to 40 or below as quick as possible, not keep it above that.

Nobody can tell you for certain whether the food would have been bad or not, that is dependent on what bacteria may have been present, their numbers and how fast they could have reproduced but IME you would not have had an illness outbreak if you had brought the internal temp of the meat back to over 150-155 degrees before serving it. Now, I am not saying what my opinion was is guaranteed and assume no liability for expressing it, but lots of people eat meat that has been in that same environment and lived to tell about it. Also, salt and marinades will inhibit bacteria as well. In the end, do what YOU feel comfortable with but make sure to educate yourself on the standards of food safety so you are informed.

BTW- How did the replacements turn out?

[Mike89]

you did the right thing, the temp could have been in the danger zone just long enough. no one will ever know now.

[RebelSS]

Good call. Food must be kept at 140 deg while holding, or it's not considered safe. 4-5 hours at room temp? Not me. As one who has certified in food safety, you had a potential there for some real problems. You never want "food poisoning", believe me. Been there, done, that from others food. I never leave anything out longer than one hour before it goes in 'fridge, the one case of food poisoning myself and a friend had was from lettuce in a salad bar that was too warm in the Summer...! Here's a helpful reminder..

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Danger_Zone.pdf

[nofishfisherman]

I think you made the right call. Odds are no one would have gotten sick but given the time and meat temp there was at least some risk. Better to play it safe instead of getting 20 people sick.

If it were cooking just for myself I'd probably have cooked it thoroughly and risked eating it but I am making that call for myself only. I won't make that decision for 20 other people.

And you can for sure tell your friend he was wrong. If he thinks below 40 degrees is the danger zone go tell him to throw away everything in his fridge because its all below 40 degrees. The real danger zone is what PurpleFloyd mentioned, above 40 and below 140. The longer the meat sits in that temp range the higher the risk.

[deerminator]

THANKS for all the replies. This is really helpful. Lesson learned to set the alarm clock the next time or have more fuel and keep the wireless thermometer with the alarm next to my head. The replacement butts (smaller) were great. I should have taken pics but smoked them for about 4 hours with hardwood charcoal and applewood and then put them in the oven at about 250 (little higher than I'd like) for the rest of the time. Mainly because I didn't have time to baby sit them because I was needed to take turns pulling 7 kids on a tube for a couple of hours. Not a bad job to have though. Pulled kids around the lake and then came back and pulled the pork while everyone else did the rest of the cooking and setting out of food!

[SkunkedAgain]

I love throwing meat on the smoker a few hours before bed. It smokes and cooks through the night, the neighbors wake up hungry, and I have an awesome meal for lunch the next day.

Everybody above was correct, but like nofishfisherman, I would have kept the questionable butt for myself. No sense in wasting $30 of meat until you know you need to do so.

[JP Z]

After a little snooping, technically you can eat meat that has gone rotten....you just have to cook the !%$!#@$!@#$ out of it.

Here is from a Doc on Yahoo Answers....seems to know their stuff.

The whole reason the FDA sets cooking temperatures for foods, is to PREVENT people from getting sick from ALREADY contaminated food. Think about it, what would be the point of cooking food to begin with if not to kill all the bad creepy crawlies?

"the bacteria can produce toxins that even cooking cannot get rid of" Unless we are talking about Ciguatera which is only found in seafood, than this is absolute rubbish. Even the botulism toxin botulinum is destroyed when enough heat is applied, such as in cooking your meat for 20 minutes at 176°F will be sufficient in killing the bacteria and breaking down the toxin.....and yes, 20 minutes at 176°F will kill the heat resistant spores as well.

With that said, here is a list of the bacteria, toxins, viruses and parasites that are ALL destroyed by cooking your food to an internal temperature of 176°F:

BACTERIA

1. Clostridium botulinum (Botulism)

2. Listeria

3. All types of Escherichia coli including E. coli O157:H7

4. Staphylococcus aureus

5. Salmonella

6. Campylobacter

7. Clostridium perfringens

VIRUSES

8. Noroviruses

9. Hepatitis A

PARASITES

10. Toxoplasma gondii

11. Trichinella spiralis

12. Giardia lamblia

13. Cryptosporidium parvum

14. Cyclospora cayetanensis

[SkunkedAgain]

Where is the list of bacteria, toxins, viruses and parasites that are NOT destroyed by cooking your food to an internal temperature of 176°F?

[delcecchi]

Anecdotally let me say that I have eaten meat and fish that was cooked and left to sit for quite a while (leftover) while on canoe trips. Cooler not very cool after a few days.

[Whoaru99]

Where is the list of bacteria, toxins, viruses and parasites that are NOT destroyed by cooking your food to an internal temperature of 176°F?

Since the meat in question was a pork butt, presumably for pulled pork which it normally done to 195 - 205 for pulling, do you have any concrete examples of bugs et al. that wouldn't be rendered inert by that temp range?

[Ybone]

I'm pretty sure botulism toxin is not destroyed by heat which is why improperly canned foods can make you sick even though you heat them before eating them.

[LABS4ME]

Botulism IS destroyed by heat. It just cannot be consistantly killed at boiling water temps... hence the reason you need to can meat under pressure. It raises the boiling point about 30 degrees or so, thus insuring destruction of the botulism organisms. You also go for longer periods of time to make sure all the spores are killed. A spore or two can begin to culture pretty quickly in meat.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Whoaru99]

CDC says botulism toxin is inactivated by heating to 176 or higher.

There are some different figures on time depending on temp. The hotter the temp the shorter the time. Either way, bringing pulled pork to 195-205 would be hotter and longer than any of the figures I saw.

I speculate most occurrence from improperly canned food is because of the premise it's already cooked so all you need to do is warm it up a little bit, if heated at all.

Was it the safe route and better safe than sorry? Perhaps, but that can be said about pretty much anything. However, it seems the risk was perceived greater than reality.