About those E-Tec motors

[delcecchi]

Not working so well for Greenwood township rescue boats. (the commercial guys seem to all use 4 strokes, that I have seen)

From the Timberjay (Greenwood twp is on Lake Vermilion)

Quote:

GREENWOOD TWP- Yet another problem with the outboard motors on the fire department’s main fire boat has led the Greenwood Town Board to seek a full refund from the engine’s manufacturer, Bombardier Recreational Products.

Last fall the manufacturer had agreed to extend the warranties on the two motors from two years to five years after both motors suffered major problems during their first year in service and needed extensive repairs.

But again this fall, major problems were found. And while the engine repair costs were covered under the warranty, there were additional problems found, including leaks in the gas line that required the tearing up and repair of the boat’s floorboards, at a cost of almost $1,000.

Several residents in the audience questioned the extensive repairs required on the motors, noting that other commercial boat users on the lake, such as barge operators, did not have similar problems.

“This is unacceptable,” said Supervisor Kirsten Reichel. “Something is wrong. The motors have failed four times. One time is too many for a boat used in rescue situations.”

The board decided to send another letter to the manufacturer, this time asking that the purchase price be refunded and the engines be taken back. They noted that the time to deal with the issue was over the winter, when the boats were out of service.

[Northlander]

Yup.

[Ufatz]

Could somebody please clarify this for me? What is the brand name of the motors you are talking about? Year and model? This posting appears-or could appear-to indict a whole line of motors and that is not fair.

Let's have some specifics please.

[Northlander]

E-Tech by Evinrude

[CaptainMusky]

The large ETec motor issues have been well documented. The sole reason I steered clear of them. Couple that with all the "no maintenance" required claims only to find out the oil consumption at break in is ridiculous amount.

Happy with my 4 stroke purchase.

[20lbSloughShark]

I'm just sad that someone finally realized a fuel injected 2 stroke is superior to a 4 stroke, and poor manufacturing ruined it. I've never driven one, but I also hear the e tec is unreliable.

[Ufatz]

Ahhhhh yes....the infamous E-Tec. Thank you. That is what I thought.

[delcecchi]

The clue was the seeking refund from manufacturer Bombardier Recreation Products. I thought that folks knew they made the E-Tec motors.

[CaptainMusky]

I'm just sad that someone finally realized a fuel injected 2 stroke is superior to a 4 stroke, and poor manufacturing ruined it. I've never driven one, but I also hear the e tec is unreliable.

it isn't poor manufacturing that ruined it. BRP spent millions to perfectdirect injection in two strokes. They have done an amazing job but with the large motors they have much different needs than a small one. If you buy a 90 or smaller they are fine. Anything bigger than that it isn't a matter of IF something happens but WHEN.

Direct injected 2 strokes are far from superior. They aren't even that much lighter than new 4 strokes and certainly aren't cleaner.

I know guys that have spent $80 in oil on opening weekend of fishing. I spend that once a year for a complete oil change. Where is this maintenance savings? I just laugh.

[Ferny]

I know three E-Tec owners. 20Hp 60HP and 90HP they are extremely happy with their purchases. The 90 and 60 guys fish English River system in Canada and run a lot of miles and love the fuel economy they now get. The 4 stroke options were so heavy it was like having another deep cycle battery in the back of the boat. Was the massive oil consumption on big HP motors? Something sounds fishy to me.

[CaptainMusky]

Like I said, small motors, under 115 are relatively trouble free. The bigger powerheads are historically not dependable.

[20lbSloughShark]

I see, so my dream of the fuel injected 60 hp tiller can still happen! If you pay other people to do engine work, then there is not much advantage to a 2 stroke. They are lighter in most cases, but comparing to a Yamaha 4 stroke or mercury 4 stroke, the difference isn't much. One I found was the e tec vs suzuki 4 stroke, both 60 hp. The e tec is 240 pounds, the suzuki is 357 pounds. Plus there is the negative that a 4 stroke smells like a fart. I need the sweet oil smell of a 2 stroke.

[Savage Brewer]

SloughShark, I don't know whos 4 strokes you have been sniffing, but I can say from experience both my previous Yamaha and current Suzuki 4 strokes really don't smell at all.

Also the Suzuki DF60A FourStroke outboard is 229 pounds, add about 20 pounds for the tiller kit and you still are under 250 pounds. Not sure where you saw a 357 pound 60HP motor, maybe a Honda?

Honestly, I don't know what to think about the ETEC motors, I have a couple of friends with 150HP ETEC's that have had major problems and one guy with a 115 that has issues as well.

It very well may be tied to the "V-Blocks" and the inline blocks are ok. I don't know for sure as I don't know anyone with a smaller ETEC.

At this point 4 Strokes have proven to be extremely reliable and it would be hard to convince me to look into a 2 stoke motor again.

[CaptainMusky]

The e tec is 240 pounds, the suzuki is 357 pounds. Plus there is the negative that a 4 stroke smells like a fart. I need the sweet oil smell of a 2 stroke.

You're on crack. Those numbers arent right The 60HP suzuki is 229#. I dont know what kind of 4 stroke you have been around, but mine you cannot even smell, period.

[BoxMN]

My merc 60 bigfoot is listed as 260 dry weight, for the lightest model - not sure which that is, but not much more than etec.

I love my 4 stroke on my pontoon, but love my 2 stroke 150 on my boat, both black motors...

I am 2 stroke fan still if you want any get-up-and-go, but not a fan of the etec after my friends' experiences with a 40 on a toon, and big one on a bassboat. But that is just some stories, I know many have great luck.

[20lbSloughShark]

I found those numbers from the evinrude HSOforum.

[Jaspernuts]

Hmmmmm.... I always thought that smell was just because my fishing parter likes chili and beer but I guess it was his 4 stroker!

[CaptainMusky]

I found those numbers from the evinrude HSOforum.

Shocker! Let me guess they also told you "3 years no maintenance too"?

Classic.

[JeffB]

I will say the 140hp Suzuki/Johnson I had was the smoothest running motor I've ever had and I had it 5 years with out a stich of trouble. I now have had a 150hp etec with no problems. So far It has had no problems, tons of power and runs perfect. It uses very little oil and really pushes my glass boat that is rated for a 200hp motor. I'm sure I'll sell it before the warranty runs out, so I'll cross my fingers I have no problems, but rest easy since it will be under warranty. Lots of power, quiet, and 5 yr Warranty no worries.

[JohnMickish]

I ran a 2008 250HO for a couple of years and the only problem I had was that the shift fork came out of adjustment taking out the lower unit. It ran strong and ran smooth and quiet. Sure, it used oil but I dont believe at the end of the year it cost any more or less to run tham my 250 Verado does. The big motors had some issues in 2007 and earlier but that has been fixed. I would like to know the whole story here. Any "issues" in outboards can easily becaused by caused by fuel and/or improper service, and this boat being government owned anything is possible.

[delcecchi]

Beginning of saga

Quote:

GREENWOOD- An item that wasn’t even on the agenda took up most of the time at the Greenwood Town Board meeting on Dec. 13.

But after another hour and a half long discussion, no agreement was reached on how to proceed with the request from the fire department to replace the two outboard engines used on the main fire/rescue boat.

Fire Chief Scott Kregness, who wasn’t at the meeting, had asked the board for permission to sell the two 250 hp engines, noting the department would not have to make a decision on purchasing either two new or two used engines until February.

Board members Gene Baland and Kirsten Reichel both had questions on the necessity of replacing the five-year-old engines, which have relatively low running time. The engines get about 40 hours of use each season, so have clocked about 200 hours over the last five years.

Board member Randy Kladivo, who is the former fire chief, said the department’s experience has shown they are better off replacing outboards on a five-year cycle. The department had initially planned to replace the engines in 2012 or 2013, but some maintenance issues in the lower unit of one engine led them to up the timeline just a bit.

Kladivo noted the trade-in value of the engines is much higher at this point in time, versus a few more years down the road. The department feels they can get about $12,000 for the two engines at this time. New engines are estimated to cost around $30,000. Kladivo said the department is now looking at replacing the 250 hp engines with 300 hp models, which will give a little more power without adding more weight.

The department intends to stick with the same brand (Bombardier E-Tec) because of the cost of re-rigging the boats to accept a different brand of outboard motor.

Reichel said she had spoken to other commercial boat users on the lake, all of which were getting much more life from their outboards. Many township residents have also questioned the need for replacing the engines so soon.

But fire department members were unanimous in their opinion that it was a matter of safety and reliability, not simply of cost. They also noted that in the long run, the cost of running the engines longer, and losing their resale value, offset the cost of purchasing new engines on a five-year cycle.

“We work with the “golden hour,” said fire department and EMS member Jeff Maus, “the sooner we can get to a patient, the better chance they have of surviving the incident.”

Baland also expressed concerns they were making the decision too hastily, and asked for more time to consider their options. He asked if the fire department felt the engines were unsafe.

“We can’t know if we will have a problem or not have a problem,” Kladivo noted.

Reichel also wondered if the township should look into other brands of engines that might have a longer lifespan.

But other board members supported the fire department’s request.

Chairman John Aro said he hated “to roll the dice” for a few thousand dollars.

“If it was for another use but safety maybe,” he said, “but if you are out there trying to get to a fire or someone who has had a heart attack, reliability ranks pretty high.”

Board member Carmen DeLuca also supported the move to purchase new engines this year. He noted the board had just been talking about funding $30,000 of blacktop to extend the bike trail.

“I think this is more important than blacktop,” he said.

The money for the engines would come from the township’s capital improvement fund.

The board eventually voted to table the issue until February.

Part 2

Quote:

GREENWOOD- Once again the item that wasn’t on the agenda took up a major portion of the agenda at the regular monthly meeting of the Greenwood Town Board.

The item, of course, was the replacement versus repair of the two engines used for the township’s main fireboat.

Greenwood Fire Chief Scott Kregness, who had missed the December meeting, brought some additional information to the board.

He noted that the department’s long-standing equipment replacement schedule did call for replacing the engines on a five-year rotation.

“This was our best guess,” he told the board, noting it was based on the department’s experience with previous engines.

“We didn’t just pull this out of a hat,” he said.

Kregness noted that with newer models of engines they might be able to look at replacement on a seven-year schedule in the future.

The board had voted to wait until their February meeting to make a decision on whether to replace the two five-year old 250 hp engines, or to repair the lower units and try to get another season or two out of them. The board would also have the choice of replacing the engines with new or slightly-used models.

The two current engines could be sold or traded-in. Fire department officials have told the board that the engines will get a much higher resale value if traded in now, rather than waiting another season or two. Supervisor Randy Kladivo, who is also a fire department member, has estimated that the engines are worth about $12,000 right now. New engines are estimated to cost $30,000.

The item first popped onto the town board agenda earlier this fall when fire department officials realized there was a problem in one of the engine’s lower units after removing the fire boat from the water for the season.

Several members of the audience had comments and questions for the board and for Kregness, but Acting Chairman Kirsten Reichel noted that the board wasn’t going to be making any decision on the matter at this meeting, so asked that comments be saved until the Feb. 14 meeting.

“We could talk and talk and talk,” she said. “But then we would have to do it all again next month.”

Part 3

Quote:

2/17/12 | 3 comments

LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Greenwood board OKs new fire boat engines

Jodi Summit

GREENWOOD TWP.—A controversial issue that has occupied Greenwood officials for months was finally put to rest on Tuesday, when the town board approved the purchase of two new 300 hp engines for the township’s primary fire boat.

The issue had been simmering since last fall, when routine end-of-season boat maintenance revealed a potential problem with one of the existing motors’ lower unit. Both motors are five years old with relatively limited hours of operation.

When fire department officials recommended exploring the purchase of two new engines, some residents and board members alike raised questions.

“This is one of those subjects you can argue it round or argue it flat,” said Chairman Tom Aro.

Aro broke the decision down into two options, purchasing new engines this year or repairing the current engines, and then replacing them in 2013. The cost analysis, according to Aro, favored buying new this year.

According to Aro’s analysis, the cash outlay for buying new engines this year would be approximately $15,000 versus $24,000 for waiting a year. The difference was due to higher resale value of the used engines in 2012, slightly lower cost for the two new engines in 2012, and the cost for repairing the two current engines, if they were kept in service an additional season.

Aro did say the township needs to institute a more aggressive preventative maintenance program for the engines, which would hopefully extend the service life of the new engines past five seasons. He also noted other considerations that needed to be part of the decision-making process, including the reliability of new versus the five-year old engines.

Fire department officials were reluctant to sway the decision-making one way or the other.

“The fire department is saying that we have to do something,” said Supervisor Randy Kladivo, “not advocating for one or the other.”

Supervisor Carmen DeLuca felt it was a wise investment since this is the township’s primary water rescue boat. He noted that the township receives $6,000 a year from St. Louis County to provide fire protection to water-access unorganized township land on the lake.

Supervisor Gene Baland said he would like to see a replacement schedule of seven years, instead of five.

Supervisor Kirsten Reichel, who has been critical of the plan to purchase new engines, said she still couldn’t justify the purchase due to the low number of hours on the engines.

The money for the purchase will come from the township’s capital equipment fund. The replacement of the engines after five years has been part of the fire department’s long-term plan.

The vote to purchase the two new 300 hp Bombadier engines was 4-1, with Reichel voting against.

That's about all I could find. I'm sure they would talk about it if you called the appropriate person, or I would guess they got them from Timbuktu who is the local dealer, although it could have been someplace else.

[delmuts]

Agreed! I just bought a Ranger with a 2006 115 e-tec this summer. Any other information?

[Savage Brewer]

The first 150 failure was a friends boat, only about 40 hours of use, and the powerhead had to be replaced, the dealer never said why, but at the time didnt care because it was under warranty.

All 3 that I know of had problems within the first two years of ownership. I thought about a ETEC on my new boat because I like the idea behind it, and I have to agree a 2 stroke ETEC of equal horsepower has more of kick in the pants feel when you hit the throttle. But my new Suzuki DF140A should push my boat to 45MPH which is plenty fast for me, and they offer a six year warranty.

Are ETEC's bad motors, probably not, but I have heard of more issues with them. Maybe it is because people are more vocal about it on forums, I don't know. But my gut reaction is that 4-Strokes with proper maintenance seem to have a better track record for reliability.

But that is just my opinion, I do not have any scientific data to support it.

[gregg52]

I own a 150 owned a 60

No problems I OWN is the key word there no hear say

When I see a guy with a e-tec I ask how do you like that motor

Have yet to get one bad comment

I do believe some of the bigger motors may have issues but I've heard

way whining on big merc than e-tec

As far as the story at the top of the page theres something going on there

One bad motor maybe 2 something up

[CaptainMusky]

Here's the thing you always hear more noise in situations where bad things happen vs people having good experiences.

Having said that I did a ton of research before buying my 150, talked to mechanics that service ALL brands and they said they saw more evinrudes than the rest combined.

They sell hundreds of boats each year and likely a large number of etec. The mechanic who has worked there 30 years said "I will never see you again unless you have us do winterization with that Suzuki".

Not all of the etecs are bad but the bigger motors are prone to issues more so than the other brands..