Lowering our Low Expectations

[SmellEsox]

I don't think he meant that he wanted more non-resident hunters. Just that the low number of NR hunters we have is a sign of an undesirable deer herd to said NR hunters.

[SmellEsox]

There is not, and never has been, any data that backs up the claim that a majority of any class bucks are getting shot. The ONLY data ever taken was from a state park hunt with limited participants.

As for wanting more out of state hunters, the question I have is why? So many people here are complaining we don't have enough deer, and you want to bring more hunters in from out of state to hunt the already overhunted public lands? That makes perfect sense!

If the majority of yearling bucks were not getting shot, no one would be complaining about a lack of bigger bucks.

[Wanderer]

I understand that point and if that is really your goal then I have no problem with it. If they are getting that hammered then would you be on board with the DNR closing areas that have too few deer to hunting period until they rebound? And when they open if the manage bucks are you OK with putting a limit on the TOTAL number of bucks harvested to control the population and not just on the size of the rack to cater to a segment that wants it easier to shoot a trophy? because that is something that would make sense if the numbers are too low.

Yes.

[mntatonka]

If the majority of yearling bucks were not getting shot, no one would be complaining about a lack of bigger bucks.

People complain because they hear a small group of people saying the majority of yearling bucks are getting shot. Do the math. It's simply impossible for Minnesota's hunters to shoot the majority of the yearling bucks every year.

[Bear55]

People complain because they hear a small group of people saying the majority of yearling bucks are getting shot. Do the math. It's simply impossible for Minnesota's hunters to shoot the majority of the yearling bucks every year.

Kind of agree with this, we can't shoot them all but its hard to do the math when we really don't know how many deer are out there. Like posted earlier, through peak and poor hunting seasons the deer have been at 1 million and the wolves at 3K. Those numbers worked in the 80's but come on, someone should have a better idea on the true population numbers by now. DNR can't be afraid to tell us the truth, tell us there was 500K deer in the mid to late 90's and triple that during the early to mid 2000's, we can take it.

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

APR's don't fix that because a 2.5 YO deer will except for isolated cases meet the point total and they will just wipe out all of the 2.5 year olds instead of the 1.5 year olds and the same number of 3 year old and up deer will remain.

I don't get too involved in the APR debate. But, I think we can (mostly) all agree that a 2.5 year old buck is generally smarter and more wary, than a 1.5 year old buck. So if a buck makes it to 2.5, it has a greater chance of surviving to 3.5 than a 1.5 year old does making it to 2.5. If this is true (which I think it is), the population of bucks should go up, as should the age and size.

[walleye18]

Cant crush and kill the 1.5 year olds and expect to have big bucks. Pretty simple.

Restraint on killing the "up and comers" is whats needed to get quality bucks in an area...pretty simple!

[Getanet]

Kind of agree with this, we can't shoot them all but its hard to do the math when we really don't know how many deer are out there.

What we do know is the number of bucks shot per licenses sold. For the firearms season here are the stats over the past few years:

2008 = 13.6% shot a legal buck

2009 = 14.3% shot a legal buck

2010 = 14.8% shot a legal buck

2011 = 12.7% shot a legal buck

Of course it doesn't break it down by age, but with these relatively modest totals it's hard to fathom we're shooting all the bucks in MN.

[Bear55]

Hard to say how many licenses per hunter as well. I buy an archery and rifle tag every year, sometimes muzzy too if I have the time. Not sure if they count bonus tags on there as well. Not easy to nail down any solid numbers.

[Bear55]

I don't get too involved in the APR debate. But, I think we can (mostly) all agree that a 2.5 year old buck is generally smarter and more wary, than a 1.5 year old buck. So if a buck makes it to 2.5, it has a greater chance of surviving to 3.5 than a 1.5 year old does making it to 2.5. If this is true (which I think it is), the population of bucks should go up, as should the age and size.

2.5's are a little smarter but they still run around like crazy during the rut and get shot without much trouble. The big change usually comes at 3.5 years of age, once they hit that mark the chances of them getting shot go down a fair bit. Every year after that they become much harder to kill.

However if you let a whole age class walk for one season there will be more of them around and more that make it to 3 year olds.

[Getanet]

I don't care how you try to spin it, to the non-hunting public putting the value of a deer by the number of points on it's rack is trophy hunting. Non-hunters can stomach the idea of hunting if it's purpose is for population control and food. They don't have the same stomach for trophy hunting, as Melissa Bachman is one example of:

http://news.yahoo.com/melissa-bachman-big-game-protest-161458798.html

To me, APR could bring an unnecessary fight to all deer hunters in MN.

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

What we do know is the number of bucks shot per licenses sold. For the firearms season here are the stats over the past few years:

2008 = 13.6% shot a legal buck

2009 = 14.3% shot a legal buck

2010 = 14.8% shot a legal buck

2011 = 12.7% shot a legal buck

Of course it doesn't break it down by age, but with these relatively modest totals it's hard to fathom we're shooting all the bucks in MN.

Here are total registered bucks. Those percentages paint a very different picture than the raw numbers.

2008 - 85,646 Total registered harvest - 221,837

2009 - 83,820 Total registered harvest - 194,186

2010 - 88,027 Total registered harvest - 207,313

2011 - 76,003 Total registered harvest - 192,331

And these buck harvest numbers do not include fawn bucks registered. Last I checked a buck is a buck regardless of age. So that puts the buck harvest at pushing 50% of overall harvest. A far cry from the 12.7% in the data above for 2011.

[Getanet]

Hard to say how many licenses per hunter as well. I buy an archery and rifle tag every year, sometimes muzzy too if I have the time. Not sure if they count bonus tags on there as well. Not easy to nail down any solid numbers.

I think you're dancing a little too much here. Page 6 of this PDF has harvest figures by zone, by license type:

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/recreation/hunting/deer/2011_harvestreport.pdf

It also has the total Buck Harvest. 85,579 bucks were shot in total. Do you think that's 80% percent of all bucks in MN?

[SmellEsox]

APRs have been around for a long time and there is no more outcry now than when they started. There is more against APR w/in the hunting community than from non-hunters. In fact, I bet a lot of non-hunters and wildlife watchers would be interested in seeing more big bucks in nature.

mntatonka, I'd like to see your math that tells me it is impossible. In central MN there are 11 deer/sq mile pre fawn (supposedly. I think its lower). In my math, most of these are yearlings and a couple does and maybe a survivor buck or two. With a harvest of 6 or more deer/sq. mile, it is easy for me to reason that the majority of yearling bucks will die. Dumbest deer in the woods next to an orphaned or abandoned fawn.

[Musky Buck]

But get a net they realize the meat is consumed, I'm not sure how the roasts are going to be on the Bachmann lion ? Might be a little chewy, the drumsticks might be tough to cook to perfection. I would hope the anti's if they want to attack will attack fenced in unfair chase trophy hunts first before they come after the millions who hunt big game in the U.S.A. I say try to control your own with this topic, if deer numbers are low in your area don't shoot too many of them and if they are high you can take an extra deer or 2. Focus from your area out about 3-4 miles and scout that talk to some farmers on the road etc. and before season have a plan like none of us added a management doe tag because we weren't seeing much around, so then hopefully we'll see stronger deer numbers next fall a bit.

[sticknstring]

Quote:

How many hunters in MN know what a browse line is?

Heck, lots of posters on this forum son't know what pleonasm is either but that doesn't stop them from posting on the forum again.

The point was not implied definition, it was because there are so few deer! You could quadruple the population in the state and still be short of carrying capacity.

[Getanet]

Here are total registered bucks. Those percentages paint a very different picture than the raw numbers.

2008 - 85,646 Total registered harvest - 221,837

2009 - 83,820 Total registered harvest - 194,186

2010 - 88,027 Total registered harvest - 207,313

2011 - 76,003 Total registered harvest - 192,331

And these buck harvest numbers do not include fawn bucks registered. Last I checked a buck is a buck regardless of age. So that puts the buck harvest at pushing 50% of overall harvest. A far cry from the 12.7% in the data above for 2011.

You can't twist the numbers around, say something I didn't say and then say I'm wrong. I never said 12.7% of bucks where shot. The number stands - 12.7% of firearms hunters shot a legal buck in 2011. The argument was, "hard to say if we're shooting all the bucks." If 13% of hunters are shooting a legal buck does it seem possible to you hunters are shooting all the bucks?

Does 76,000 bucks out of 597,615 licenses sold seem like an astronomical number to you?

Roughly 33% of hunters are successful in shooting any deer. About half that shoot a legal buck.

Anyway you want to slice it, a majority of hunters go home empty handed and a small percentage are successful in shooting a legal buck of any age.

The 87% figure was taken from a handbook that was published nearly 14 years ago. And with any type of report like that they were likely using data that was at least a few years old to begin with.

[SmellEsox]

You can't twist the numbers around, say something I didn't say and then say I'm wrong. I never said 12.7% of bucks where shot. The number stands - 12.7% of firearms hunters shot a legal buck in 2011. The argument was, "hard to say if we're shooting all the bucks." If 13% of hunters are shooting a legal buck does it seem possible to you hunters are shooting all the bucks?

Does 76,000 bucks out of 597,615 licenses sold seem like an astronomical number to you?

Roughly 33% of hunters are successful in shooting any deer. About half that shoot a legal buck.

Anyway you want to slice it, a majority of hunters go home empty handed and a small percentage are successful in shooting a legal buck of any age.

The 87% figure was taken from a handbook that was published nearly 14 years ago. And with any type of report like that they were likely using data that was at least a few years old to begin with.

To me it says that hunting is really bad if 500,000 hunters can only kill 80-90,000 bucks in a year. Hunting pressure on bucks probably doesn't change that much from year to year. That is why buck harvest is such an important factor in DNR's population model. If buck harvest continues to decline significantly every year, it is obvious to me that the population is declining significantly every year. If I were DNR deer czar, I'd cut way back on antlerless tags.

[Getanet]

How many hunters in MN know what a browse line is?

[Bear55]

Getanet you are going to have to help me out here, what are you arguing and where do you stand on whatever we are talking about? I went back a few pages and couldn't find anything.

All I am saying is we really don't know how many bucks and total deer are out there to begin with so its hard to find solid numbers based off harvest numbers or % of something we don't really know for sure.

[TruthWalleyes]

All i know is that if i buy a deer license and sit my butt on a 5 gallon bucket somewhere on my 80 acres of land....I expect to see 3 mature deer in a 3 hour sitting.

I've met a lot of hunters, and i'm not suprised why so many don't fill tags. LOL.

Also, i know of several purchased tags where the hunter has only hunted a half day to a full day max. Not as many die hards as one might believe...Lots of busy kids and busy parents of kids that buy a license and don't hunt much and i bet those are the ones contributing the most to the non-success category. Me personally, have been in the successful hunter category every season of my life.

[sticknstring]

All I am saying is we really don't know how many bucks and total deer are out there to begin with so its hard to find solid numbers based off harvest numbers or % of something we don't really know for sure.

There lies the problem. The DNR has no idea how many deer we have. How could they? There's been no surveys! They fly less than 5% of the areas and know what areas should be managed or lottery?

[Getanet]

Bear...yeah, I've gone round and round with folks on APR on this site so many times over the years perhaps I'm a bit dizzy. Here is where I stand:

1) Don't agree with APR regulations. It's forcing one's belief of a quality deer on another. It's also driving a wedge in the hunting community where it isn't needed. If you want to practice it yourself, that's great.

2) All the statistics about percent of yearlings shot are basically hogwash. Might as well pull a number out of a hat and call it a fact.

3) People who point to other states as shining example of what MN should try to become ignore some combination of pressure, habitat or situations where most hunters are excluded from hunting the territories where the big bucks are found.

[sticknstring]

All i know is that if i buy a deer license and sit my butt on a 5 gallon bucket somewhere on my 80 acres of land....I expect to see 3 mature deer in a 3 hour sitting.

I've met a lot of hunters, and i'm not suprised why so many don't fill tags. LOL.

Me personally, have been in the successful hunter category every season of my life.

Maybe we can pool together and get TW a trophy. He could be the best deer hunter in the state!

[Bear55]

Bear...yeah, I've gone round and round with folks on APR on this site so many times over the years perhaps I'm a bit dizzy. Here is where I stand:

1) Don't agree with APR regulations. It's forcing one's belief of a quality deer on another. It's also driving a wedge in the hunting community where it isn't needed. If you want to practice it yourself, that's great.

2) All the statistics about percent of yearlings shot are basically hogwash. Might as well pull a number out of a hat and call it a fact.

3) People who point to other states as shining example of what MN should try to become ignore some combination of pressure, habitat or situations where most hunters are excluded from hunting the territories where the big bucks are found.

Can't argue with any of those. I love to hunt big deer, all I ask of the dnr is a decent population to work with. I have that where I bow hunt in central MN, up north it is much more difficult.