Black mold

[Scoot]

I'm moving in a house that has black mold in the basement. There's some black mold on/in pretty much all of the walls in the basement. From what I understand, I need to gut the basement almost entirely. I planned on doing this myself, but I was recently told that this kind of work has to be done by professionals who will vent the basement appropriately to get rid of all of the mold spores so they don't get into the rest of the house. I was also told they keep everything damp so the mold spores don't spread so much.

Is any of this true or is it a bunch of company line info to help make one of the companies who deal with this stuff more money? I was told that if I try do it myself I'll end up spending much more money having the entire house dealt with, rather than just hiring someone to take care of the baseemnt. Any info appreciated...

[CAMAN]

Yup, its true. Black mold can get you very sick, and if not abated properly the spores will travel throughout the home. And its a lot more than just scraping it off and spraying bleach on it. Very few things actually kill it, and if every spore isn't treated it will come back. This is one of those things best left to the pros.

[JeremyCampbell]

I've done work like that on homes.You need to hire it out before it gets to be a health issue.I've dealt with foreclosure homes where it spread and took over entire homes.If you can professionals will be a good route.

[Tom7227]

Two thoughts.

How do you know it's only in the basement?

What do you think caused the excess mositure or whatever caused it to happen?

very odd to me is that there is an ad on this page for some sort of mold removal outfit. How does that happen?

[jbach]

BLACK MOLD NOT TOXIC TO HUMANS?

Carl Brahe

As real estate agents and home inspectors, we have been taught to run away screaming at the sight of black mold.

Caoimhin (pronounced Qwee-Ving) Connell, Industrial Hygienist, says that there has not been a single, peer reviewed, scientific study done that shows Stachybotrys (one of many thousands of varieties of black mold) is toxic to human beings at concentrations seen in homes. There is a potential for allergic reaction.

Mr. Connell says that a report from the Centers for Disease Control that relied on unscientific and flawed study methods started the entire hysteria over black mold. There have been high profile stories about people getting sick from toxic mold, but Caoimhin says that in most cases, health problems attributed to mold are caused allergic reaction to other airborne agents common in most homes.

Mr. Connell calls testing methods used by home inspectors, “junk-science”. The normal testing done by home inspectors proves nothing except that mold is present. Mold is present everywhere. The normally used technique of comparing indoor and outdoor samples is so flawed that it proves nothing and is a waste of money, according to Caoimhin.

The normal reasons for mold testing usually don’t make a lot of sense. Mold is everywhere. If it has a source of moisture and food (mold eats cellulose and complex sugars), it will grow and prosper until the moisture dries up. Then it goes into dormancy and can wait centuries to revive when the moisture is great enough for it to grow again. It takes around 19% water content in a food source and forty-eight hours for most molds to begin to grow. If moisture is controlled mold can’t grow.

Testing is sometimes ordered when people in a house are having unexplained health problems. If mold is found, may be assumed to be the cause. The real cause is probably something else, especially in a climate as dry as Colorado.

Some people request a mold test to know what kind of mold is present in their homes with the thought that if Stachybotrys is present, something must be done. Normal testing procedures will find Stachybotrys present along with all other mold species that occur naturally in the environment. The concentrations, inside and out, will be higher or lower during different times of the year and periods of weather

An industrial hygienist approach would include working with the medical team to determine relevant testing. First a thorough visual inspection is done. He/she will be looking for a source of the allergen that has hopefully been identified by medical testing. Sampling for toxins (mycotoxins) is almost never performed since the testing is extremely expensive and there is no scientific evidence to suggest that such toxins are responsible for symptoms.

If a source is found, such as mold growth in walls, or off gassing of building materials, or pet danders or other allergen/toxin found in the environment, the next step is to identify a migratory pathway. This is a way that the offending source enters the person’s immediate environment. If mold in the wall is contained in the wall and has no way to escape into the building, it is not a danger to the occupants.

If the offending agent has been found to have a way to enter a person’s immediate environment, the person must be already susceptible to have a health effect. Only after all these aspects have been discovered will an industrial hygienist do lab testing, if necessary. Meaningful lab testing that will stand up in court is expensive. If the source, migration pathway and susceptibility pathways have been discovered, the problem can be corrected and lab testing may not be needed.

Pause

BLACK MOLD NOT TOXIC TO HUMANS?

Carl Brahe

As real estate agents and home inspectors, we have been taught to run away screaming at the sight of black mold.

Caoimhin (pronounced Qwee-Ving) Connell, Industrial Hygienist, says that there has not been a single, peer reviewed, scientific study done that shows Stachybotrys (one of many thousands of varieties of black mold) is toxic to human beings at concentrations seen in homes. There is a potential for allergic reaction.

Mr. Connell says that a report from the Centers for Disease Control that relied on unscientific and flawed study methods started the entire hysteria over black mold. There have been high profile stories about people getting sick from toxic mold, but Caoimhin says that in most cases, health problems attributed to mold are caused allergic reaction to other airborne agents common in most homes.

Mr. Connell calls testing methods used by home inspectors, “junk-science”. The normal testing done by home inspectors proves nothing except that mold is present. Mold is present everywhere. The normally used technique of comparing indoor and outdoor samples is so flawed that it proves nothing and is a waste of money, according to Caoimhin.

The normal reasons for mold testing usually don’t make a lot of sense. Mold is everywhere. If it has a source of moisture and food (mold eats cellulose and complex sugars), it will grow and prosper until the moisture dries up. Then it goes into dormancy and can wait centuries to revive when the moisture is great enough for it to grow again. It takes around 19% water content in a food source and forty-eight hours for most molds to begin to grow. If moisture is controlled mold can’t grow.

Testing is sometimes ordered when people in a house are having unexplained health problems. If mold is found, may be assumed to be the cause. The real cause is probably something else, especially in a climate as dry as Colorado.

Some people request a mold test to know what kind of mold is present in their homes with the thought that if Stachybotrys is present, something must be done. Normal testing procedures will find Stachybotrys present along with all other mold species that occur naturally in the environment. The concentrations, inside and out, will be higher or lower during different times of the year and periods of weather

An industrial hygienist approach would include working with the medical team to determine relevant testing. First a thorough visual inspection is done. He/she will be looking for a source of the allergen that has hopefully been identified by medical testing. Sampling for toxins (mycotoxins) is almost never performed since the testing is extremely expensive and there is no scientific evidence to suggest that such toxins are responsible for symptoms.

If a source is found, such as mold growth in walls, or off gassing of building materials, or pet danders or other allergen/toxin found in the environment, the next step is to identify a migratory pathway. This is a way that the offending source enters the person’s immediate environment. If mold in the wall is contained in the wall and has no way to escape into the building, it is not a danger to the occupants.

If the offending agent has been found to have a way to enter a person’s immediate environment, the person must be already susceptible to have a health effect. Only after all these aspects have been discovered will an industrial hygienist do lab testing, if necessary. Meaningful lab testing that will stand up in court is expensive. If the source, migration pathway and susceptibility pathways have been discovered, the problem can be corrected and lab testing may not be needed.

Pause

[nonteepical]

the mold issue has been a con game ever since it started 10 years ago, it started a whole new industry giving the asbestos guys something else to cleanup. bottom line if your insurance company won't pay for cleanup, it probably isn't bad for your health, other than sneezing and the sniffles.

[CAMAN]

Sorry but I disagree. My sister and BIL bought a new house about 15 years ago when they got married. They proceeded to have 3 kids and a couple cats. When my oldest nephew was about 2 they started to notice the two cats(that never went outdoors btw) were losing all their hair and shortly after that my nephew kept on getting hospitalized with random symptoms, then he started losing his hair. The doctors wanted the house checked out and after about 2 years of a complete investigation which included air checks and tearing into walls they found a massive amount of mold growing in the exterior walls. The insurance company shoved them away saying they wouldn't cover it, the builder shut down and opened under a different name, and they were left with a 3000sf house they could not afford to fix. Finally when the market crashed they figured it was their easiest way out and gave it back to the bank, but not without a forever lasting affect, my oldest nephew who is now 14 has been diagnosed with alopecia and will most likely never have hair anywhere on his body again, has some of the worst asthma I have ever witnessed and many other llasting affects of something you claim would at the worst cause 'sneezing and sniffles'. And all this happened when the mold was never disturbed and covered behind the drywall and vapor barrier.

[Scoot]

LOL- perfect! Now I have clear suggestions, to: 1) don't bother with it, it doesn't matter, and 2) do something immediately or my family's health will forever be ruined. Clear as mud!

I understand that I'm asking for advice on an internet forum and this is exact what one can get from that. However, who do I talk to for an expert opinion? If I call one of the mold removal places there's a guarantee that I'll be told it needs to be dealt with immediately and by them- that, I have no doubt about. Who else might I call to get an "expert" opinion? One that might not be as biased...

[delcecchi]

There was a bunch of houses that were built improperly some years ago when energy conservation and sealing things up became a big deal and they basically dissolved into piles of moldy goo.

But to get back to the question...

A couple links that might help

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/00058.html

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/indoorair/mold/index.html

http://www.epa.gov/mold/

And if you are really curious and like big words...

http://www.oehc.uchc.edu/images/PDFs/MOLD%20GUIDE.pdf

[Down Deep]

No matter what you decide on for removal; what are you going to do to abate the problem and prevent the conditions that will allow the mold to return. You will need to do something to address moisture, food and the other conditions that mold need to live.

[pikestabber]

No matter what you decide on for removal; what are you going to do to abate the problem and prevent the conditions that will allow the mold to return. You will need to do something to address moisture, food and the other conditions that mold need to live.

+1. Removal is only half the battle. If the contributing factors aren't dealt with, it's not removal, it's just a delay before round two starts.

My two cents--if you are concerned enough to seek advice on if it's bad enough to warrant professional removal, you are concerned enough... If you don't do anything, it'll always be in the back of your mind and you will second guess every cough and sniffle. I say the money spent now might sting a bit at first, but peace of mind is priceless.

[mabr]

Scoot I sent yo a PM.

Couple things that matter, has the cause of the mold been stopped. Mold needs 3 things to grow. Food, moisture and warm enough temp to grow. Take one away and it stops growing. BUT if one of those 3 things ever comes back, and the mold spores are still present it will begin to grow again unless removed.

One thing I see with mold is it doesn't always affect everyone. Some people are hyper sensitive and these types of persons are the ones it usually affects. Ive done to many mold remediation's to count and I honestly dont believe I needed any respirators while i did them,it didnt affect me then. BUT as I get older I am beginning to notice I am more sensitive to it. That goes with what I was taught in my training as well. The elderly, the young and those who have suppressed immune systems are affected the most.

Can you do the remediation? That depends on how big the job is and how capable you are. A good visual comparison would be a dandelion with seeds. It wont spread until it is disturbed, once its disturbed we all know where those seeds go, molds the same way BUT alot smaller in size. Id almost be willing to bet the rest of your home is already affected just by walking down in the basement and going back to the upstairs. Only difference is the upstairs probably doesn't have all 3 needed items to grow.

If your seriously concerned the best advise would be to hire a 3rd party specialist (Environmental Hygienist) and have them do air sample testing. We have used Legend Technical Services in your area, They have an office in the Dakotas and I could get you in touch with them if you'd like. But there service are not cheap. They will provide a protocol on how the work should be completed. And will if wanted perform post cleaning clearance to assure you there aren't any mold spores when the work is done.

What a remediation contractor is going to do is put the area under negative air pressure vented to the outside using industrial air scrubbers with a hepa filter to catch the mold spores, seal the area off, kill the mold by spraying anti microbial, hepa vac the surfaces then begin to remove IT MOLD or the MATERIAL affected. That's it!

I have a subcontractor who does other types of work for me that just did a home he bought using Borax to kill it. I don't know if it is an approved mold killer but he swears it worked for him and the place looks and smells great. I use an EPA regulated anti-microbial because i have to. Back in my younger days I used bleach and in my opinion it still would work. But due to liability and government regs i now only use approved chemicals and follow the book to a T. I also require post cleaning clearance on all jobs we do or I wont do them. The liability is just to great now.

If it were me and as long as my family was healthy I would tackle it myself. My kids got into far worse things playing in the woods than mold growing in the basement so me personally it would have been an easy decision. Flip side, we make pretty good money doing remediation for those that do have issues so I don't want to say everyone can tackle it themselves.

someone else already said this, mold has been around sense the beginning of time we are all exposed to it daily. BUT it doesn't affect everyone the same. Shoot me a PM and Ill give you a little more detail on what I think you could do tackle it yourself if you want. Oh i'm not on here all the time anymore so if i don't get back right away give me some time.

[nonteepical]

Sorry but I disagree. My sister and BIL bought a new house about 15 years ago when they got married. They proceeded to have 3 kids and a couple cats. When my oldest nephew was about 2 they started to notice the two cats(that never went outdoors btw) were losing all their hair and shortly after that my nephew kept on getting hospitalized with random symptoms, then he started losing his hair. The doctors wanted the house checked out and after about 2 years of a complete investigation which included air checks and tearing into walls they found a massive amount of mold growing in the exterior walls. The insurance company shoved them away saying they wouldn't cover it, the builder shut down and opened under a different name, and they were left with a 3000sf house they could not afford to fix. Finally when the market crashed they figured it was their easiest way out and gave it back to the bank, but not without a forever lasting affect, my oldest nephew who is now 14 has been diagnosed with alopecia and will most likely never have hair anywhere on his body again, has some of the worst asthma I have ever witnessed and many other llasting affects of something you claim would at the worst cause 'sneezing and sniffles'. And all this happened when the mold was never disturbed and covered behind the drywall and vapor barrier.

Well i'm sorry for your sisters familys health problems, and i'm not going to argue or dispute their findings and i hope the kids can recover, but curious if their house was stucco, new stucco houses a few years ago were actually rotting within 5 years, they changed the building practices and builders that were building those style houses (to code by the way) went out of business, because they didn't want the liability for building a home the way the government required them to.

[CAMAN]

Yes it was stucco, and yes that is what was proven to be the culprit. I probably should have mentioned that in the story, thanks.

[311Hemi]

There was a bunch of houses that were built improperly some years ago when energy conservation and sealing things up became a big deal and they basically dissolved into piles of moldy goo.

What was determined to have caused this to happen? Specific ways of insulating, certain type of exteriors, failure to properly seal things? I'm more curious than anything to see how things have changed to ensure this does not happen.

[Tom7227]

A friend had the stucco problem and I think it was related to a failure to properly flash around the windows and doors. He had to remove the stucco and replace some rotted wood and windows. I believe his cost was in excess of $100K but he was able to get some help from either his insurance company or a bond that the original builder had. His house was about 20 years old. I am sure you could find more about it with some searching on the internet.

[delcecchi]

Apparently it is water intrusion like around windows and so on, coupled with very tight houses and new materials along with poor practices in construction. Back in the day if some water got in there was air infiltration to dry it out, and the builders did a better job as well.

Search for the stories from back about 8 or 10 years.

[10,000 Casts]

Scoot, bottom line you have to get rid of ALL the mold. I would call Serv Pro/ Service master or another restoration and have them come and do a free mold test in every room. (They may be able to abate the mold without tearing down walls) but if not then go to town with the demolition then have them back out to do whatever they say like soda blast etc. I've been told that the key is getting the moisture levels down to acceptable levels, then they remove it and soda blast to keep it from coming back.

My guess is that those companies deal with a ton of mold in Fargo/Moorhead with the shallow water table and river floods. They should. Know exactly what to do.