Manziel Debate

[DrJuice1980]

How so? I believe stats triumph opinion. Defense controls the TOP, look at the rate in which a win=TOP dominance. 2 min drives ending in a score by the offense aren't the reason for more ball control. It's the 3 and outs.

[Big Dave2]

How so? I believe stats triumph opinion. Defense controls the TOP, look at the rate in which a win=TOP dominance. 2 min drives ending in a score by the offense aren't the reason for more ball control. It's the 3 and outs.

In good teams with top offenses the opposite is true. A good offense keeps a mediocre defense off the field and rested so there is less substituting of starters needed. A good offense also gets their team out to an early lead forcing the other team's offense out of their game plan early which plays into the hands of even a mediocre defense.

[DrJuice1980]

I agree with your first part Big Dave. A good offense will provide a nice cushion for the D to risk more and play better than they are, same could be said for the opposite. I can only think of a few offenses like that, and we are a FAR cry from being a Denver Broncos. Johnny football isn't the answer and no other QB in the draft is. It's easier to build defense.

[Juneau4]

I bet ther'se a couple people on here, when they look in the mirror, start argueing with what they see.

[Big Dave2]

It's easier to build defense.

I disagree. To build this defense into that caliber of defense where you can win a superbowl without having a top-notch QB, you will need a lot more than 1 first round pick.

[JeffB]

People don't recognize good defense today when they see it. With todays rules if you hold the other team below 21 points your defense did its job. Even the Vikings are averaging over 24 points per game of offense. The top six defenses hold the other team below 19 points per game and will all be in the playoffs.

[CaptainMusky]

There are clearly needs all over the defense but last year with the same roster with one exception, Winfield, they were a capable one. There is a lit of issues with depth and some people not playing well this year but its not like we started the season with an entirely new defense. With Winfield on the d this year I have to believe they would have been significantly better.

[DrJuice1980]

Big Dave, that is why I have said from the beginning that we need to acquire multiple (more than 2) day 1 picks. Because there is no QB that will turn this team into having a high power offense. We have to think about what we are. Look in the mirror. We have the best RB ever (and a very solid #2). We need to build a D so we can CONTROL THE BALL with that run game and work off the play action like we have been doing but our QB spot blows, we shouldn't need to burn a 1st pick on a "capable" guy. No LMIT, I don't have a fantasy about some mythical QB falling into our lap, it seems like that is your dream. Pinch yourself, wake up from that dream.

There are way more Jamarcus Russells out there then Demetrius Underwoods. The margin for error is less, and we are far away from 1 player being the answer to all our problems.

[Dylan33]

What is the title of this thread? Oh yeah, Manziel Debate. I looked back 3 pages, with no mention of Johnny Football....I love how these threads twist and turn and the discussions are in now way related to what the topic is.

Carry on.

[Juan Grande]

The only two teams in the past twenty years to win Super Bowls without a good QB were the 2001 Ravens and 2003 Bucs. The other 18 either had elite QBs or got elite level QB play during their playoff run.

Like others have said, with all the rule changes favoring the offense, it's very tough to keep a halfway decent offense under 20 points these days.

The Vikes should be able to get Bridgewater or Manziel with their first pick. I would take either of those guys in a second.

[DrJuice1980]

Bra,

Eli is an elite QB or was he a product of the defense?

(holding New England to 17 and 14 points wasn't defense?)

Big Ben is not elite

Joe Flacco is not elite

Since 03 there have been 6 super bowls have been won by "non" elite QBs. If youre saying that the top 10-15 QBs in the league are "elite" then it doesn't take much to hold that title does it. To me Elite is top 3-5.

[CaptainMusky]

What is the title of this thread? Oh yeah, Manziel Debate. I looked back 3 pages, with no mention of Johnny Football....I love how these threads twist and turn and the discussions are in now way related to what the topic is.

Carry on.

There is plenty to whet your appetite about Manziel in the other 23 pages knock yourself out there and enjoy the reading.

[Big Dave2]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1757087-how-to-win-the-super-bowl

[Big Dave2]

Bra,

Eli is an elite QB or was he a product of the defense?

(holding New England to 17 and 14 points wasn't defense?)

Too bad for you that the Giants defense was ranked 17th in 2007 and 25th in 2011.

[LMITOUT]

Quote:

The evolution of the NFL toward the passing game is apparent. The winners of the past 10 Super Bowls ranked an average of ninth in net adjusted yards per attempt on offense and 10th in allowed net adjusted yards per attempt on defense. On the ground, these title winners averaged just 19th in rushing yards per carry and 14th in rushing yards allowed per carry.

It's clear that "run and stop the run" is no longer the secret to NFL success.

It's clear that "run and stop the run" is no longer the secret to NFL success.<---- Stuart Smalley's formula for the Vikings

[LMITOUT]

Too bad for you that the Giants defense was ranked 17th in 2007 and 25th in 2011.

You're forgetting that apparently the regular season doesn't count, according to Mr. Smalley.

[DrJuice1980]

so the Giants offense held the Pats offense to 17 and 14?

[DrJuice1980]

Quote:

The evolution of the NFL toward the passing game is apparent. The winners of the past 10 Super Bowls ranked an average of ninth in net adjusted yards per attempt on offense and 10th in allowed net adjusted yards per attempt on defense. On the ground, these title winners averaged just 19th in rushing yards per carry and 14th in rushing yards allowed per carry.

It's clear that "run and stop the run" is no longer the secret to NFL success.

It's clear that "run and stop the run" is no longer the secret to NFL success.<---- Stuart Smalley's formula for the Vikings

Was AP on those teams?

[Juan Grande]

Juice,

You didn't read this part of my post "...or got elite level QB play during their playoff run."

I don't consider Eli or Flacco elite, but they both played at a very high level in their playoff runs. Check out Flacco's postseason stats, they're some of the best ever.

[LMITOUT]

Was AP on those teams?

Not only are there mythical QB's and mythical football seasons that just have a Super Bowl in your world, but now we have mythical RB's that are a dime a dozen and will be there year after year, even when they've been rode hard and put away wet every...single...game because the team doesn't have a QB worth squat.

Good grief.

Turn the TV on and watch the Vikings or at least take a look at the standings in the paper once in a while. They've proven this approach doesn't work...year after year after year after...

Enjoy your trip to fantasy land. Send us a postcard.

[LABS4ME]

Like others have said, with all the rule changes favoring the offense, it's very tough to keep a halfway decent offense under 20 points these days.

Like the Vikings? I believe they have averaged 22 points per game this year...

Good Luck!

Ken

[LABS4ME]

I don't consider Eli elite,

No, you might not.... but Ellie considers himself ELITE. Just ask him! HA

Good Luck!

Ken

[DrJuice1980]

Not only are there mythical QB's and mythical football seasons that just have a Super Bowl in your world, but now we have mythical RB's that are a dime a dozen and will be there year after year, even when they've been rode hard and put away wet every...single...game because the team doesn't have a QB worth squat.

Good grief.

Turn the TV on and watch the Vikings or at least take a look at the standings in the paper once in a while. They've proven this approach doesn't work...year after year after year after...

Enjoy your trip to fantasy land. Send us a postcard.

Tell that to Walter Payton, the Dynasty Cowboys teams of the 90's (Emmitt Smith (more so, his o-line)), Jamal Lewis, and Jerome Bettis, just to name a few. Could even throw out Terrell Davis' name.

Those were proven not to work either....?

Do we need a QB, yes. Is the answer Johnny Football? Nope. (my opinion)

I know why you don't understand my "Defense wins championships" stance, theres no real stat line in the paper for it and you can not watch a Football game and understand how the game is played beyond the ball being hand-off or thrown. My mistake.

[Big Dave2]

Tell that to Walter Payton, the Dynasty Cowboys teams of the 90's (Emmitt Smith (more so, his o-line)), Jamal Lewis, and Jerome Bettis, just to name a few. Could even throw out Terrell Davis' name.

Those were proven not to work either....?

Do we need a QB, yes. Is the answer Johnny Football? Nope. (my opinion)

I know why you don't understand my "Defense wins championships" stance, theres no real stat line in the paper for it and you can not watch a Football game and understand how the game is played beyond the ball being hand-off or thrown. My mistake.

If you're going to live in the past, that all makes complete sense. But if you want to move into the 2000's, not so much.

Things change, not always for the better but they do change. If you don't want to change with the times, you'll be left behind.

[Big Dave2]

Are QB's a riskier pick than other positions?

http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftquarterbackriskmyth.php