How dangerous was this? (electrical)

[frazwood]

Backstory: We bought a lake cabin a few years ago. The prior owner had passed away and we bought the place from his estate. A few years prior to his untimely demise, the previous owner had renovated almost the entire interior, including the kitchen.

When we bought the place, I knew that electrical work in the kitchen needed a bit of an update, as none of the receptacles were GFCIs. With a million other things to do in life, I hadn't gotten around to fixing this problem until this past weekend (it's winterized now, but I check up on it every couple of weeks).

Unfortunately, I discovered that the wiring for the kitchen is entirely wrong. There are two circuits for the entire kitchen, one includes the refrigerator, microwave, about half of the lights, and about half of the receptacles. The other circuit was wired for the other half of the lights, the other half of the receptacles, and the garbage disposal.

The really bad part was that the circuit breakers in the panel were 20-amp breakers but he wired the circuits with 14-2 wire.

I am assuming that there were more than a few occasions in which we were pulling more than 15 amps on a single circuit (you know, making toast on one receptacle, coffee on another, while microwaving something).

My sarcastic comment to my wife was "I can't believe that we didn't burn the house down", but I honestly don't if that's true or not.

How dangerous was this?

p.s. I will be re-wiring ASAP!

[highlife4me]

Sounds like you are describing most houses built before 1960. Kitchens didn't have microwaves, automatic coffee makers, garbage disposals, and four slice toasters. You would be amazed at how many houses are still like this today.

[Moose-Hunter]

This IS your winter project. At least in my eyes.

14-2, 20 amp breakers and with a HIGH max load... and then the fridge kicks in! Not a good combination. I'm no expert but put me down for a "you're lucky" vote.

(Note: I like to over-engineer things where safety is a concern. Who am I kidding... I over-engineer everything. )

[delcecchi]

Number 12 wire is .16 ohms per 100 ft. 14 is .25 ohms per 100 feet. Power is I**R, so at 20 amps 100 feet of 14 drops 5 volts and 100 watts.

The same 100 feet of 12 Gauge drops 3.2 volts and 64 watts.

Whether the extra drop causes an unsafe increase in wire temperature depends on a bunch of factors. I would worry more about the connections than the wire itself. How good a job did he do on fixtures and wire nuts?

[aanderud]

You beat me to it del. the 40 watts of additional dissipated heat in 50-100 feet of cable is more than likely not going to kill anything. The guys putting the 'code' together put in plenty of margin -- it's called CYA - cover your a$$. change the breakers to 15 amps and you're extra safe.

[Whoaru99]

change the breakers to 15 amps and you're extra safe.

Not only "extra" safe, but your insurance might actually cover a loss in the unfortunate event of that occurring.

[aanderud]

Well yeah that too

I was only suggesting it as an alternative to his suggestion that he would rewire the entire thing with 12 gauge wiring.

He asked how dangerous it was and clearly indicated that he is going to make it comply with code. I responded with the realistic estimate that it was not very dangerous. Statistically speaking, Im' sure there's a higher probability of dying in at leat 10 different ways in any given day or having at least 10 different disasters (natural or otherwise) in his house versus having that circuit melt and start a fire during the 'occasional' times that it was loaded to nearly 20 amps.

I didn't say anything about legalities or insurabilities.

[delcecchi]

I think that stuff about insurance not covering is perhaps bogus. It covers people smoking in bed, running space heaters on 16 ga. extension cords under rugs next to drapes and so on. This wiring was there when he bought the place. It isn't like he intentionally lit the place on fire.

[JohnMickish]

To be code complient, you need at least two 20 amp breakers for the kitchen receptacles. Any competent home/electrical/FHA inspector will catch it if it's not there.

My concern is if this was overlooked, what else was done sub par?

[Whoaru99]

To be code complient, you need at least two 20 amp breakers for the kitchen receptacles. Any competent home/electrical/FHA inspector will catch it if it's not there.

My concern is if this was overlooked, what else was done sub par?

Good points.

Sometimes when rewiring/fixing there is the possibility that you have to go beyond merely repairing and update certain aspects to current code. I don't know what those rules are but should be considered.

[Whoaru99]

Well yeah that too

I was only suggesting it as an alternative to his suggestion that he would rewire the entire thing with 12 gauge wiring.

And I completely agree with that suggestion. My point was not a challenge to your opinion, but rather add an additional consideration. Perhaps the quotes made it seem otherwise.

[hawgchaser]

A disclaimer first. I'm not an electrician, but I've wired a half dozen homes I've built and lived in. In Minnesota, two inspections are required on all new construction; the rough in inspection before the walls & ceilings are covered which would have caught the improper electrical layout and the final inspection after all the outlets and receptacles are connected. It's pretty obvious the previous owner had neither inspection done.

Here's the kicker...according to one of the electrical inspectors I've worked with on two occasions. According to him, without those two satisfactory inspections, your insurance coverage may be voided in the case of fire - regardless of whether the fire is attributed to the uninspected wiring or not. He said that some insurers actually hire licensed electricians to find wiring code violations that would exempt the company from covering fire damage. He also said that the wording of the policy and not the words of the agent are (usually)the primary legal determination. That put the fear of God in me enough to make sure all my wiring was code compliant and inspected.

I'd be real hesitant to rewire the existing addition to bring it up to code if I couldn't get both satisfactory inspection stickers. Talk to an electrical inspector and find out what is required to bring the wiring up to satisfy current codes/inspection requirements. I don't think the danger in the wiring is in the wiring as much as in the leeway it gives to your insurance company.

[PurpleFloyd]

One point that I think needs to be clarified is whether any electrical work was done in the remodel that would require any sort of full inspection. The code above obviously covers new construction where you are dealing with open framing to be able to see the entire path of the wiring.

If the remodel was superficial then the only things requiring inspection in my neck of the woods would be any newly added wiring that is done and the rest is grandfathered in. Although my guess is the HO would be called for the incorrect sized breakers in the box and would need to change them to the proper rated ones.

The first house we bought after we were married still had the old post and knob wiring and had only 4 fuses for the entire house and those fuses were located on the outside of the house under the entry way roof. Needless to say I had that changed.

[Whoaru99]

The other possibility and one quite likely, I think, is that it was done properly at the time. My speculation is sometime later, with the expanding electrical loads resulting in trips, someone got the bright idea to replace the 15A breakers with 20A breakers.

[frazwood]

Thank you, everyone, for the comments. I am going to try and respond to many of the comments, whenever I have something pertinent to say.

Whether the extra drop causes an unsafe increase in wire temperature depends on a bunch of factors. I would worry more about the connections than the wire itself. How good a job did he do on fixtures and wire nuts?

He actually did a pretty good job with this. I was thinking a bit more about this last night and I reached the conclusion that if there had been an "almost fire", I would have seen evidence at the connections -- I didn't see any evidence, which is good.

The guys putting the 'code' together put in plenty of margin -- it's called CYA - cover your a$$. change the breakers to 15 amps and you're extra safe.

This kind of hits on my question. I know the code (more or less; I know to ask questions for sure) but I don't know how much safety factor is incorporated into the code. I will change out the breakers next time I am there.

I was only suggesting it as an alternative to his suggestion that he would rewire the entire thing with 12 gauge wiring.

We will be re-doing the kitchen in 2-3 years anyway. I am hoping to get the kitchen safe (safe-ish?) until then, when it'll be relatively easy to do a re-wire as we will be opening walls and such at that time. In the meantime, I'll put in 15 amp breakers and we'll be very careful not to use too many items at the same time on those circuits.

I think that stuff about insurance not covering is perhaps bogus. It covers people smoking in bed, running space heaters on 16 ga. extension cords under rugs next to drapes and so on. This wiring was there when he bought the place. It isn't like he intentionally lit the place on fire.

I don't know much about insurance. My goal is to prevent the place from catching on fire in the first place.

To be code complient, you need at least two 20 amp breakers for the kitchen receptacles. Any competent home/electrical/FHA inspector will catch it if it's not there.

My concern is if this was overlooked, what else was done sub par?

Home inspectors typically don't open up receptacles in the kitchen to make sure that the correct gauge of wire is used. They also don't check to see how many items are on a specific circuit. They only check out what they can see without removing anything.

In addition to what you said, I've been taught to put the microwave, garbage disposal, and dishwasher on their own, dedicated 20-amp circuits, the lights on a separate circuit, and the refrigerator on its own circuit. Is this over-engineering? Yes. Is it difficult to do? No. Is it safe? Yes.

As far as what else has been done wrong, the answer is almost everything. I am somewhat annoyed at myself for not investigating the kitchen wiring previously. I know that he has made massive mistakes elsewhere in the wiring. For some reason, though, I assumed that he did the kitchen correctly, at least until a couple of days ago. His mistakes extend beyond electrical too. Why else do you think that we are already planning on re-doing a kitchen (complete gut and start over) that is only six years old? My favorite is that he laid ceramic tile onto hardwood -- yep, 90% of the tiles have cracked.

In Minnesota, two inspections are required on all new construction; the rough in inspection before the walls & ceilings are covered which would have caught the improper electrical layout and the final inspection after all the outlets and receptacles are connected. It's pretty obvious the previous owner had neither inspection done.

Permits? Inspections? What are those? My response is already too long, but I have been arguing back-and-forth with the City for almost two years about permits and inspections. I was initially told by the City clerk that inspections/permits were not required -- perhaps they were handled by the County? The County, of course, referred me back to the City. I could (and perhaps should) write a book about all of the things wrong about this house and how a small town government was negligent in enforcing building codes. In all seriousness, this is nowhere close to my biggest problem with this place and 100% of my problems would have been resolved if there had been permits, inspections, etc.

I'd be real hesitant to rewire the existing addition to bring it up to code if I couldn't get both satisfactory inspection stickers. Talk to an electrical inspector and find out what is required to bring the wiring up to satisfy current codes/inspection requirements.

I most definitely plan on getting an electrical permit/inspection when I re-wire the kitchen. I have re-wired a kitchen and a bathroom previously and I was very happy to pass my kitchen inspection, but I initially failed the bathroom inspection, which was a good thing because I was then able to fix the mistake.

The other possibility and one quite likely, I think, is that it was done properly at the time.

The kitchen was re-modeled in 2006 (the cabinets have a date on the inside) and I am guessing that the wiring was done then. The electrical panel is very new, certainly less than 10 years old. At the closing, when we bought the place, the former owner's son, who ironically is a master electrician, mentioned that his Dad had recently re-wired the place all by himself.

[PurpleFloyd]

when we bought the place, the former owner's son, who ironically is a master electrician, mentioned that his Dad had recently re-wired the place all by himself.

Well, that brings things more to light.

I guess at that time you could have asked for inspection documentation before closing on the house. Now, unless there is some fraudulent documentation on the disclosure form you are more than likely on your own. If the guy did wire it himself and did not have it inspected then there are some risks to you that you need to weigh the value of.

[JohnMickish]

I get on here and I do my fair share of complaining about unskilled or unknowledgeable people doing the electrical work. This is why complain and preech to get it inspected. Scary stuff.

[frazwood]

I guess at that time you could have asked for inspection documentation before closing on the house. Now, unless there is some fraudulent documentation on the disclosure form you are more than likely on your own. If the guy did wire it himself and did not have it inspected then there are some risks to you that you need to weigh the value of.

I know that I'm totally on my own with this wiring. I knew that there were problems with this place when we bought it (we didn't exactly pay top dollar for it). My attitude, then as now, was that I could fix most of the problems for a relatively small price.

Some of the problems, though, are better hidden than others. This one has caused me anxiety because I hadn't checked (when I should have known better) and I had been using these circuits as if they were proper 20-amp circuits.

Still, it's not a good environment for "up to code" construction when the City does not even know that they have responsibility for issuing permits and inspecting constructions, renovations, etc.

[frazwood]

I get on here and I do my fair share of complaining about unskilled or unknowledgeable people doing the electrical work. This is why complain and preech to get it inspected. Scary stuff.

Amen, brother.

[Surface Tension]

As someone already said, in the 1960's we didn't have the appliances we do now and codes were different. Eventually the 15 amp breakers were tripping and someone made the mistake or replacing the 15 amp with 20.

So replace the 20 amp breakers with 15 amp.

You might trip a breaker but the wire is protected.

There could have been multiple permits and inspections throughout the history of this home. Those inspections aren't for whole house inspection, they are for the new work being preformed. Existing wiring that was code at one time but not code now won't be

inspected and you won't be told to change. The kitchen could have been remolded by the homeowner but existing wiring not touched. If and when you decide to remodel pull the electrical permit for the kitchen and have at it. Do the rough in and have it inspected. When your done then you have the final inspection. Just note that the inspector is going to look at the work performed under this permit and nothing else.

I'd say that most homes wired to old codes are "safe", its when someone comes along and changes things or does something Unsafe. In this case the 20 amp breakers.

[Tom7227]

I am wondering if there is such a thing as electrical inspections in rural Minnesota. There's the law and then there's reality. I am not suggesting that someone not follow codes as I think they are wisely there for a reason. I just don't think that a lake cabin outside of Crow Wing County and maybe a few more has much of a chance of ever being inspected.

As far as void insurance if no inspections were done or if the place wasn't up to code - I guess I am skeptical about that as well. Sure if there is a fire that can be traced back to some electrical work that required a permit and was done in a shoddy manner and resulted in a fire within a reasonable time of the work being done then yeah, the insurance company may burp at a claim. In the instance involved in this thread I sort of doubt it. If insurance was void on every structure that didn't comply with current codes there wouldn't be very many claims paid in Minnesota I would guess.

Depending on the age of the structure the originator of this thread may have a tough time finding replacement breakers. I know I did about 4 years ago when one went kaflooey.

[CAMAN]

Quote:

I am wondering if there is such a thing as electrical inspections in rural Minnesota.

Building permits are city/county enforced. Electrical is state enforced. So even if you aren't required to receive a building permit, you still must get an electrical permit and inspections for the work done.

But obviously there is concept and there is reality. If someone weren't required to get a building permit, why would they go out of there way to get an electrical permit?

[Surface Tension]

Yes electrical permits are needed state wide.

When the tax adjuster comes along and sees you've added on or done some interior work, the cat will be out of the bag. Off goes the sheetrock.

The permits are cheap enough and think of the inspector as having your back just in case you've made a mistake.

[frazwood]

Building permits are city/county enforced. Electrical is state enforced. So even if you aren't required to receive a building permit, you still must get an electrical permit and inspections for the work done.

But obviously there is concept and there is reality. If someone weren't required to get a building permit, why would they go out of there way to get an electrical permit?

This is correct. In my experience, there is a double layer of protection as the city inspectors won't sign off on their inspections until after the electrical work has passed.

A lot of work, regardless of its location, gets done without a permit (electrical, new construction, renovation, etc).

[frazwood]

Depending on the age of the structure the originator of this thread may have a tough time finding replacement breakers. I know I did about 4 years ago when one went kaflooey.

The former owner re-wired much of the house in the past 10 years -- the panel is definitely new. In fact, I already had one 15-amp breaker on hand -- and I can pick up another for less than $5 at a big box store.

I've even seen this little trick of installing the wrong amp breakers before when I inspected the wiring in the bedrooms. In that case, he had 12-gauge wire from the panel to the first receptacle and then 14-gauge wire after that (and this is why I am saying that I should have known better and actually inspected the wiring in the kitchen before last weekend).