APR's good for hunter recruitment but not for retention?

[Laska]

trigger- Sorry I didnt clarify, the 20 deer in the field, atleast 15 of them have been counted crossing the road to the farm land from the crp fields where theres only 3 hunters, I was out on opener of 3a and they shot 8 times before 10am, and all 3 were still hunting on thursday when I went out- you can see them all from the road... So either they missed or its not good because 345 is one tag limit.... I know that the buck I call "Crabby" a 4 1/2yo lives on the CRP land and is one that crosses over after dark to feed... Hope this helps... As for does, again I see very few...even on cams, like I said I we got a high buckling spawn this year- must have.... doesnt help anything

[countyline]

This APR is a stunt by the MN DNR to increase non resident tag purchases and outside exposure from the white tail world. Nice and close to Iowa, APR's in place. Guides will soon be leasing all the land. Think about it how many hunting shows are filmed in MN on contentious basis? Even Lee and Tiffany had to leave to do it. Some one at the MN DNR spends to much time on channel 605.

[nonteepical]

sounds like chumley

[hockeybc69]

Now that there is funny nonteep... I dont care who ya are.

DNR secret agenda... now I have heard it all.... LOLLL

I suppose the next thing we will hear is that Lou Cornicelli is taking bribes from out of staters to push this APR thing too.

[lakevet]

Now that there is funny nonteep... I dont care who ya are.

DNR secret agenda... now I have heard it all.... LOLLL

I suppose the next thing we will hear is that Lou Cornicelli is taking bribes from out of staters to push this APR thing too.

Not likely, but there is substantial economic pressure to change the seasons/regs. Some quotes from "THE ECONOMICS OF MINNESOTA’S DEER MANAGEMENT PROGRAM" on the Blufflands Whitetail HSOforum:

"THAT BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE MINNESOTA DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES MANAGES THIS RESOURCE, EVERY YEAR THE STATE OF MINNESOTA LOSES MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, AND THE BUSINESSES OF THIS STATE ARE LOSING MANY MILLIONS OF DOLLARS MORE."

and

"A good way to see how well a state is doing in managing it's resources is to look at the ratio of resident to non-resident hunters in a state and compare that number to other states. In other words, to see how many hunters are willing to travel to Minnesota from other states to hunt, and compare that to the number of hunters who are willing to travel to other states to hunt. In that comparison, Minnesota is performing very badly!"

"The next question then is how well is Minnesota doing in its resident/non-resident sales ratio in comparison to our four neighboring states. They are North and South Dakota, Iowa and Wisconsin. The answer to that question again, is very badly."

"Last year Minnesota issued about 16,000 non- resident deer licenses and in doing so brought a little over $2 million dollars into the state treasury. If we were able to charge as much for a license as Iowa does, Minnesota would have made over $9 million."

and

"But for a state with budget deficits like we currently have, it is a substantial amount of money to say the least! When one considers our past history, the genetics and the size of our deer herd, the quality and amount of habitat in this state, and the amount of lands that are available for anyone to hunt on without even asking permission, the losses that this state suffers on account of its deer management practices are simply staggering."

There is no doubt business interests and the potential for profit are in play in the situation, as well as potential for significantly increased revenue via license sales by the DNR.

lakevet

[Wanderer]

Again I say: I'm in favor of statewide APR's if only to avoid overcrowding and overpricing of hunting opportunities in one part of our state.

And I have to ask: Are these "lost" revenues actually measured by declining revenues or are they conveniently labled as "lost" vs being more acurately estimated as "potential" or "unrealized" to benefit one side of the debate?

I believe we are in a deficit ratio of res to non-res hunters in MN but I'll also argue that because we have MN residents that hunt other states, that doesn't mean they're hunting other states INSTEAD of hunting MN. We're just doing it in ADDITION to hunting MN.

I would agree money has something (not everything) to do with it. It always does...

[LightningBG]

Quote:

"Last year Minnesota issued about 16,000 non- resident deer licenses and in doing so brought a little over $2 million dollars into the state treasury. If we were able to charge as much for a license as Iowa does, Minnesota would have made over $9 million."

This has to be one of the dumbest rationals ever published.

Hey everyone, if we charge 4.5 times as much. We'll bring in 4.5 times as much money.

Maybe someone should fill Chevy in on this theory. They could sell a Silvarado for $150K and make a ton more money!.... or make no money.

I'll be in WI tomorrow for gun opener. Paid my $160+ and all. But, if they even doubled the price, let alone 4.5X, I wouldn't be there at all.

Plain and simple, when you raise the price, numbers go down. Doesn't matter how good the hunting gets (within realistic realms). Some people just cant afford it.

[TRZ II]

APR would be a terrible idea in the NE. Many deer don't even get 8pts till 3.5 yrs or older! All areas of the state are very different and need to be managed accordingly. My party shot a 2.5 or 3.5 yr. old 5 point (basically a fork) this year that weighed 175lbs.! Would you want him running around breeding his genes till he dies of old age????

[deerminator]

If you're going to do APRs statewide, you pretty much need to customize them to each permit area like you do bag limits. From every deer hunting magazine I've read in the past, most "experts" agree that any state arrives at its seasons, bag limits and any other specific rules based much more so on societal preference than science to the extent you are not pushing a species to extinction.

So Wisconsin likes their gun season next week and we like our's earlier. That's why the respective DNRs have set their seasons that way. The DNR says hunters across the state told them they want to see more deer so they made most areas Lottery or Hunter's Choice. People in one part of the state here say they wanted APRs and so the DNR made it so.

So, wouldn't it be great if the DNR asked you what you'd prefer directly when you purchase your license? Ask everyone versus just listening to organizations or those that know of and/or can show up at an input meeting? I'd like it. Ask the hunters in each zone when they buy a license when they'd like to have gun season every 2-3 years and then stick with it for that timeframe. Then ask each year, by permit area, do you want APRs, and how many deer do you want to shoot, and then within reason, respond with bag limits/APR rules that corresponded.

I'm kind of a "permit areas' rights" (ala state's rights) guy here in this respect, I guess. No statewide APRs. Leave it to the people, literally, to decide in each permit area.

[Getanet]

Good grief, have you seen how well we come to an agreement here on how our herd should be managed? Can you imagine trying to consider 500,000 people's opinion who all think we're experts?

I think you just opened up an Pandora's Box, full of headaches!

[deerminator]

I don't think it would be too hard at all. You ask when do you want the season every three years and give a few date ranges. Then every year, you ask by permit area, how many deer do you want the option of tagging (again the DNR offers the options based on what the deer population could sustain)and do you want APRs. In each case, majority answer wins. So long as you did permit area (and the seasons by zones), no one group or part of the state would dictate what the majority in your area was in favor of.

[Bear55]

APR would be a terrible idea in the NE. Many deer don't even get 8pts till 3.5 yrs or older! All areas of the state are very different and need to be managed accordingly. My party shot a 2.5 or 3.5 yr. old 5 point (basically a fork) this year that weighed 175lbs.! Would you want him running around breeding his genes till he dies of old age????

Generally speaking people for a statwide APR have never hunting a lotto area or low deer numbers and have no clue what is going on outside their small farm or area.

I wouldn't mind seeing a little APR, but only in those areas with high deer populations. Right now that isn't too many areas.

[muskE]

Again I say: I'm in favor of statewide APR's if only to avoid overcrowding and overpricing of hunting opportunities in one part of our state.

It has been suggested that APR's will stimulate land owners to charge big money for land use. There are always people that will pay so hunting traditions will take a backseat to those with the deepest pockets.

I just finished my season in an APR zone and I counted 4 dead bucks (under legal APR limits) in the woods that I'm assuming came from the first shotgun season. There was also another 5pt buck in a moderate state of decay that looks to have been there more than a week. This is the second year I've seen wasted animals in the woods that were apparently left behind and not tagged which should have been retrieved (all were short yardage from snowmobile trails) and it sickens me to think the APR will continue.

The DNR counts are based on registered deer and not what's been left in the field which suggests thier management numbers are off. I know there are others left in the woods that were taken below the APR after speaking with other hunters that were equally disgusted. In the end, whomever shot these deer likely used the unclaimed tag to shoot another deer which further puts pressure on the herd population and limits the "traditional" zone even greater with fewer legal deer. Our group didn't see many deer and several were shut out, including me.

I'd propose to the DNR that they cease the APR until they get a better understanding of the true impact on all levels. If it does continue I'd like them to address the wasted deer issue via an exemption lottery or some sort to help protect the resource.

[hockeybc69]

Mabye you should report those deer to a CO for a little further action, rather than just throw up your arms about it.

[nonteepical]

why is it always the guys who don't like APR's, are the ones finding dead bucks all over the place, and their deer don't grow brow tines.

[tritonman]

I agree!!! If you find that many ILLEGALLY shot deer in a woods you should be reporting it! You yourself should be able to figure out who shot them! I hunt many different states every year and I STILL know for the most part who is hunting around me! Turn these people in! They are committing a crime! No excuse for that. Know your target!

[PropsterII]

Ditto. First of all I can guarantee you the DNR takes an estimate of these into account, as they do hooking mortality on walleyes on Mille Lacs. It's unfortunate they should have to, as apparently people just aren't very good at identifying their target. To use this analogy for being against APR seems a little shirt-sighted. It would be the same as saying we shouldn't have regulations about shooting bucks or does because you know it's just too hard to tell a doe from a buck. If a regulation exists it is your responsibility to make sure of your target. I for one believe that somehow allowing ( legislating if you have to, and it could be by means other than APR) bucks to mature before killing them is not only going to produce bigger bucks and more of them, it will definitely improve the age structure, buck:doe ratio, will affect breeding in a positive manner (less breeding done by 1 1/2 old bucks) and improve the rut action (more intense) that we as hunters would all like to see. And this is based on some pretty sound biology. Is the main reason I'd like to see it for improved hunting? Heck yeah! Who on this forum doesn't want that? And if you say I'm one who doesn't care and truly hunt for meat, then even with restrictions the does will still outnumber bucks by quite a margin. And if you're one of those who truly doesn't care and if given the opportunity to shoot a doe or a giant buck when they step out together, take a long look at yourself and pass that big buck in favor of the die - or admit that you enjoy it too!

[muskiemanAD]

Wow, you must have some people around you that should at first movement. That is a lot of deer to find in one season. I have a big group that hunts Whitewater and no one in my group has seen small bucks being left for dead in any of the past 3 years or have heard of it.

[muskiemanAD]

why is it always the guys who don't like APR's, are the ones finding dead bucks all over the place, and their deer don't grow brow tines.

Agreed!!

[hockeybc69]

I say show us the pics of all these dead bucks...

[96trigger]

Please do inform us of the area in which you are hunting and also the name of the state land. I will call the DNR for you if you give me the locations of all these deer. I'm assuming it has to be public land, because if its private, you should have done something about it years ago. Funny, the 1st year of APR, I heard of a lot of people that found the same thing in whitewater, nobody ever saw all these deer 1st hand, just new of somebody that new somebody that had. Now that things have settled down a little and people are much better at identifying their intended targets, I don't hear any of that any more. Surprisingly, most of the people I talk to really are starting to like APR.

[muskE]

I did my duty and reported it at the registration station (no cell coverage) and was told that due to the number of hunters they wouldn't be able to determine who it was and was "unfortunate."

I don't carry camera equipment in the woods as I carry enough stuff to have to worry about keeping it dry or from being smashed so it stays in the car. Besides, pics of dead deer prove nothing and only open the door for accusations. I got lamb-basted for even posting my observations and have been labeled as anti-APR and could only imagine if I had pics...no thank you. I passed 2 bucks with a visible 3x3 of good size that "could" have had bow tines at first legal light at a moderate distance. No confirmation, no shot. Maybe they were 8's but I respect my own morals and the law.

I don't know what to tell you but I've seen more "lost" deer in the past 2 years than ever before on both private and public land. This also supports the DNR harvest trends of low numbers in year one (didn't see any dead deer) and increasing numbers thereafter. Coincidence, maybe, but if you doubt me it's your right and you are certainly entitled to your opinions but I will argue you're shooting the messenger. I'm not against herd managment (quite the contrary) but I think the APR (while has some benefits) is too polarizing and clearly has faults.

Managing herd populations should be the key focus instead of managing for the vanity of a larger rack as many posts aluded to. We all enjoy this great sport for different reasons and should feel good about the regulations at hand. The APR clearly is challenging our collective mettle and with the numbers of hunters on the decline we need to remain united to maintain a strong voice against those that oppose the sport.

[muskE]

Again I say: I'm in favor of statewide APR's if only to avoid overcrowding and overpricing of hunting opportunities in one part of our state....

I would agree money has something (not everything) to do with it. It always does...

You get what you ask for... From WEAU.com

Big Buck$ in Buffalo County: Local Hunters Getting Priced Out

More than half a million excited hunters are counting down the hours until the gun deer season starts Saturday morning. For those looking for that trophy buck, Buffalo County is proving to be the best place to be.

The county is responsible for 823 Pope and Young Club records. It has 94 listed in Boone and Crockett.

With Buffalo’s reputation for trophies comes record numbers of hunters willing to pay big bucks for the chance at those big bucks.

We take a look at how the price of fame is changing a way of life for a lot of locals.

Buffalo County, Wisconsin: 685 square miles of rolling hills, thick forests, farm fields… and some of the biggest bucks in Wisconsin. Some of those big guys gaining national fame; one made it on the cover of Field and Stream.

"This will be my 40th year of hunting," Scott Semingson tells us.

For four decades, Semingson has hunted Buffalo County. In those 40 years, he's witnessed first hand how times are changing.

"The first time I remember losing land is about the early 80’s when three people from Milwaukee leased the 300 acres for $500," he says.

Back then, Semingson and his family had a standing deal with the landowner. They got to hunt his land; in exchange they filled their cabin with food from his grocery store. With the deal over, this hunter hunted for a new place to hunt.

"I'd give him venison. I’d give him a turkey for Thanksgiving and it was good to go,” Semingson says. In 1991 or 1992, he says an outfitter offered to lease the land and the landowner gave him an option. “I couldn't pay $3000 for that land," he says.

Semingson's stories of losing land span decades.

In 1993, he and a dozen or so friends and family bought their own 187 acres for around $70,000. Three years ago, they were offered more than half a million. The majority said 'yes' and Semingson couldn't afford to buy them out.

"Unfortunately, the land prices are so high that a lot of locals, unfortunately, cant purchase it anymore and people are coming from the cities and the Milwaukee area," says Stuart Hagen with Investment Reality.

Hagen has some of the most expensive land listings on the Wisconsin Hunting Land HSOforum We found 22 acres for just under $90,000, 21 acres for $233,000 and 98 acres for $390,000.

There's no question what the buyers are paying for.

"People started to have a hunger for bigger, quality bucks and this county has them,” Hagen says. “Obviously, the out-of-towners who are buying the land up are not real popular with the local people because they are losing their hunting land unfortunately because of the price."

Realtors say the average price for prime Buffalo hunting land is $4000 an acre. Outfitters can charge more than $400 a day to hunt.

"That's why I do the outfitting. I have to, otherwise, I wouldn't be able to live here," says David Fredrickson with Dave Fredrickson Outfitting.

But with outfitting comes a reputation.

"They come here to pursue trophy animals, there's no question about that," Fredrickson says.

It’s a reputation that Fredrickson knows pits him against a lot of local hunters.

"It was bothersome. I won't deny that, but I am who I am,” he says. “I have pretty good knowledge of the white tail deer and it's always fun to bring people in and see how they react when they see some of the nice animals that we have to offer."

Fredrickson says since 1996, he's had hunters in from Arizona, Georgia, Florida, and all over the country. This year, we found a couple guys who made the trip from Virginia.

"We traveled 16 hours to come here and do this. It's been a dream of mine. I've always wanted to go on a hunt like this," Doug Williams tells us.

Williams didn't go home with a trophy after filling his doe tag proved problematic.

"I passed on a shooter buck this morning," he says.

But the Virginia man had no problem with the $2200 price tag on his trip; a price tag, Fredrickson has no problem defending.

"Yeah, $2200 seems like a lot of money,” he says. “People here in Buffalo County can't afford the land. The land has been driven up. I wouldn't say it's because of the outfitters. I’d say it’s just because of the deer hunting."

"Twenty-five acres of woods for $1650,” Semingson tells us what he’s paying to hunt this fall.

He’s leasing the land; something he never wanted to do.

"There were a lot of friendships, I’m sure that were broken because of this,” Semingson says. “I see the point of the farmer or landowner leasing it if they don't hunt it and I can see the frustration of the people that have hunted there for years."

But, for someone determined to hunt… and determined to hunt the big ones roaming near his home, Scott Semingson says deer season will always be the best part of the year in Buffalo County.

"There is no doubt I would prefer the way it was 20 years ago,” he says. “I would prefer that, but if I don't change with the times, I’m not going to hunt at all and I like hunting too much to much to not do what it takes to go hunting.”

The DNR estimates 8000 hunters will be out in Buffalo County on opening morning.

There is limited public land available to hunt there and the DNR says it does get hunted very heavily.

[lakevet]

You get what you ask for... From WEAU.com

Big Buck$ in Buffalo County: Local Hunters Getting Priced Out

More than half a million excited hunters are counting down the hours until the gun deer season starts Saturday morning. For those looking for that trophy buck, Buffalo County is proving to be the best place to be.

The county is responsible for 823 Pope and Young Club records. It has 94 listed in Boone and Crockett.

With Buffalo’s reputation for trophies comes record numbers of hunters willing to pay big bucks for the chance at those big bucks.

We take a look at how the price of fame is changing a way of life for a lot of locals.

Buffalo County, Wisconsin: 685 square miles of rolling hills, thick forests, farm fields… and some of the biggest bucks in Wisconsin. Some of those big guys gaining national fame; one made it on the cover of Field and Stream.

"This will be my 40th year of hunting," Scott Semingson tells us.

For four decades, Semingson has hunted Buffalo County. In those 40 years, he's witnessed first hand how times are changing.

"The first time I remember losing land is about the early 80’s when three people from Milwaukee leased the 300 acres for $500," he says.

Back then, Semingson and his family had a standing deal with the landowner. They got to hunt his land; in exchange they filled their cabin with food from his grocery store. With the deal over, this hunter hunted for a new place to hunt.

"I'd give him venison. I’d give him a turkey for Thanksgiving and it was good to go,” Semingson says. In 1991 or 1992, he says an outfitter offered to lease the land and the landowner gave him an option. “I couldn't pay $3000 for that land," he says.

Semingson's stories of losing land span decades.

In 1993, he and a dozen or so friends and family bought their own 187 acres for around $70,000. Three years ago, they were offered more than half a million. The majority said 'yes' and Semingson couldn't afford to buy them out.

"Unfortunately, the land prices are so high that a lot of locals, unfortunately, cant purchase it anymore and people are coming from the cities and the Milwaukee area," says Stuart Hagen with Investment Reality.

Hagen has some of the most expensive land listings on the Wisconsin Hunting Land HSOforum We found 22 acres for just under $90,000, 21 acres for $233,000 and 98 acres for $390,000.

There's no question what the buyers are paying for.

"People started to have a hunger for bigger, quality bucks and this county has them,” Hagen says. “Obviously, the out-of-towners who are buying the land up are not real popular with the local people because they are losing their hunting land unfortunately because of the price."

Realtors say the average price for prime Buffalo hunting land is $4000 an acre. Outfitters can charge more than $400 a day to hunt.

"That's why I do the outfitting. I have to, otherwise, I wouldn't be able to live here," says David Fredrickson with Dave Fredrickson Outfitting.

But with outfitting comes a reputation.

"They come here to pursue trophy animals, there's no question about that," Fredrickson says.

It’s a reputation that Fredrickson knows pits him against a lot of local hunters.

"It was bothersome. I won't deny that, but I am who I am,” he says. “I have pretty good knowledge of the white tail deer and it's always fun to bring people in and see how they react when they see some of the nice animals that we have to offer."

Fredrickson says since 1996, he's had hunters in from Arizona, Georgia, Florida, and all over the country. This year, we found a couple guys who made the trip from Virginia.

"We traveled 16 hours to come here and do this. It's been a dream of mine. I've always wanted to go on a hunt like this," Doug Williams tells us.

Williams didn't go home with a trophy after filling his doe tag proved problematic.

"I passed on a shooter buck this morning," he says.

But the Virginia man had no problem with the $2200 price tag on his trip; a price tag, Fredrickson has no problem defending.

"Yeah, $2200 seems like a lot of money,” he says. “People here in Buffalo County can't afford the land. The land has been driven up. I wouldn't say it's because of the outfitters. I’d say it’s just because of the deer hunting."

"Twenty-five acres of woods for $1650,” Semingson tells us what he’s paying to hunt this fall.

He’s leasing the land; something he never wanted to do.

"There were a lot of friendships, I’m sure that were broken because of this,” Semingson says. “I see the point of the farmer or landowner leasing it if they don't hunt it and I can see the frustration of the people that have hunted there for years."

But, for someone determined to hunt… and determined to hunt the big ones roaming near his home, Scott Semingson says deer season will always be the best part of the year in Buffalo County.

"There is no doubt I would prefer the way it was 20 years ago,” he says. “I would prefer that, but if I don't change with the times, I’m not going to hunt at all and I like hunting too much to much to not do what it takes to go hunting.”

The DNR estimates 8000 hunters will be out in Buffalo County on opening morning.

There is limited public land available to hunt there and the DNR says it does get hunted very heavily.

Sounds like a great place for a dad to get his kids started in hunting.....

Again the MN DNR says that APR's are good for hunter recruitment but not retention. I wonder how many locals just don't hunt there anymore, or have to leave the county to find a place to hunt with their kids that fits their budget that isn't a total zoo. And how many average Joes that used to travel there don't go there anymore........

lakevet

[zepman]

I can certainly relate to this article. Our deer hunting party has always been @ 12 people...this year 5 showed up...2 went home a day early. We have hunted on this land for the better part of 30+ years. It's farmalnd, hillsides and ravines in the Rushford area.

Over the last 3 years that land has been divided into parcels...sold for staggering amounts...fenced up and posted. We still have a good chunk of land to hunt but our access points have been all but taken away. The climate for us has changed forever with most of this group to never buy a deer liscence again.

The problem is we can't just go "talk" to our neighbors like we used to. Of the 3 parcels that were sold, all have out of state area codes listed on their posted signs.

So yeah, this article hits home for our party pretty well.

As for how does this relate to the recruitment/retention rate...most of the remaining guys hunting are 2nd generation hunters who all have boys and girls either in or entering their teens. I just don't see the 3rd generation keeping up the tradition that has been on this land for the last 30 years.