APR, QDM, Trophy Hunters, etc....

[nonteepical]

The way i see it all these rules changes that people want to implement is for the sole purpose of growing more and bigger antlers. Sure some can hide behind the healthier herd argument but if everybody that wants to implement these rules is honest, its about a rack. Thus giving "trophy" hunters more opportunities for what they want while taking away opportunities from the rest of people who hunt and differ from their opinion. I'm not against trying something different but if the sole purpose is for rack and rack only count me out. I'm curious where some people would stand if the buck to doe ratio would be where it should be but the majority of deer are young and there still wasn't a fair amount of mature deer. Again I'm not singling anybody out.

Shooting everything that walks is taking away from hunters, that kind of hunting takes away from other hunters who want to take an older animal, buck management takes away from no one plays no favorites.

Buck success rates are the same, they don't change except for the first couple years after they are implemented. In every state that implements some sort of buck management (apr's, wide as it's ears) hunter sucess rates returns to what it was previous to a buck management plan, the only difference is everyone is shooting larger bucks. Zone 3 just(almost) finished it's 2nd year of APR's, when the data comes back on hunters sucess rates i guarantee the buck sucess went up from last year and after next years season is over, it will return to the same as it was 3 years previous.

[NoWiser]

I'm only going to make one post in this thread, but here is my simple solution.

Eliminate APRs, keep the season where it is, and eliminate all party hunting for bucks, regardless of zone type. Simple as that.

Every single person in the entire state can shoot whatever deer tickles their fancy (unless in a lottery area w/ no doe permit). How can anyone possibly complain about this? No more complaining about having to count tines, see spikes, etc. But, once you pull the trigger on an antlered deer, you are done shooting antlered deer. Perfect for those that want to save some small bucks, and for those that "can't eat horns".

I don't like APRs because many people look forward to eating deer all year, have a limited amount of time to hunt, and do want to shoot the first thing they see. Who am I to say that is wrong? I don't like the later season because (and I know this is selfish) I use a canoe to access my hunting area, and the way it was this year, we were already breaking significant ice by the second weekend to get out of camp.

Third weekend I hunted with my old hunting party up by Leech Lake. We got 3 deer, 2 were 1 1/2 year old bucks and one was a doe. Both guys who shot the young bucks also shot young bucks opening weekend. Funny thing was...both had their buck tags left for muzzleloader season when the weekend ended. They went out and found other people to tag their deer so that they could shoot another buck. So their it is. Those two guys will probably end up shooting either 5 or 6 yearling bucks by the time all seasons are over, when it could have been 2 or less if they wanted to keep their tags for a chance at a big boy. How is that fair for anybody?

The no buck party hunting solution just seems so obvious to me, I don't understand what people have against it? If you shoot a monster buck the first day, continue party hunting for does. If you can't shoot does in your area, then become camp cook, grab a shotgun and go grouse hunting, or just sleep in and enjoy the rest of your time off work. Or, better yet, find a kid and take them out hunting....your season has already been a success.

Thats about all I have to say about that. I used to be more passionate about this topic. Now that I found a very large area of public land to hunt with zero pressure, it's become less important. I've implemented my own rules, and in the last 3 years, I've shot the 3 biggest bucks of my life. I have no doubt this success will continue because I know for a fact no young bucks will be shot in this area as long as I'm there.

[creepworm]

I am not a fan of changing the regulations in order to increase the number of larger bucks, but, no cross tagging of antlered and only antlered deer is something I could get behind. It would be a small concession in order to make many hunters happy. Also, there is a large problem with people buying tags for others that do not even hunt so they can save their tag for muzzle loader. I think this would help to curb that problem a bit.

[Harmonica Bear]

Not the biggest fan of party hunting, but I guess on some level I "get it". The question I have is: how possibly could you enforce it?

[BLACKJACK]

Been following this thread and thought it time to chime in.

I've been deer hunting for 31 years, and hope to deer hunt for anther 30 years, I've bought lifetime licences for both gun and archery. First deer I shot was a 10 point buck, got lucky, hit it the neck with the fifth shot, and I've been hooked ever since. I love to bowhunt, love to spend time out in the woods, love to be sitting in a deer stand when its first getting light out.

I've spent enought time deer hunting, and seeing nothing, or seeing deer at 50 yards, beyond bow range, to where I consider any deer I shoot a trophy, be it a doe, fork horn, or small 8 point. It doens't have to have a big rack to satisfy me. It also doesn't hurt that I like venison.

I think what most people on this forum don't realize is that the majority of deer hunters are satisified just getting a deer. Success rate for gun hunters in MN is roughly 40%, that means that roughly 300,000 of them were not able to shoot a deer. Success rate for archery hunters is roughly 20%, so there are alot of them don't shoot a deer. Yes, there are some hunters that choose to eat tag soup, nitpick if you want, but to the average Joe Blow hunter, shooting a deer is a big deal, and if they shoot it with a bow, its a really big deal, they've accomplished something.

When the time comes that I don't consider any deer I shoot as a trophy, that I need a big rack to be satisfied, then I'll go hunt one down, because I know that they are out there, I see pictures of lots very nice bucks shot in MN - I won't expect the DNR to pass more regulations that infringe on the average Joe Blow deer hunter, just so I can shoot a big racked buck.

[DaveT]

I really don't think enforcement would be an issue. Most people are law abiding, the ones that aren't are already poaching to some degree or another, anyway. Most of the time when a CO busts somebody for poaching it's because they got a tip from someone. When these guys go to work and brag about shooting multiple bucks, somebody will turn them in. Maybe that group gets a ticket or two, maybe they all have a good story and they don't get ticketed. Next year they think a little harder about breaking the law and maybe decide it isn't worth the risk.

Can you imagine a CO interrogating some guys wife who has never hunted but tagged a buck for her husband? I bet it would be hilarious to watch. I'll guarantee you whether she got ticketed or not, she'd never buy another tag for her husband again.

[Harmonica Bear]

Exactly - excuse me mam, can you draw back this bow for me?

[john skarie]

Nonteepcial;

"Shooting everything that walks" is not taking away from anyone.

In your mind it's up to the rest of use to make sure you have better chances at getting what you consider a trophy.

Nobody is taking anything away from you or anybody else. The deer herd is a public resource, not private. It belongs to all of us and we all have an equal right to shoot whatever deer we please when we purchase a liscence.

I suppose someone who wants to catch 30" walleyes could say that others keeping them before they get to 30" is "taking away from me".

Niether the deer or walleyes belong to you until you catch or kill them yourself.

JS

[Getanet]

There is 15 pages of back and forth where nobody has come up with any kind of solution, only the pros and cons of both sides, which have been hashed and bashed the last 3 years.

For quite a few of us the solution, if you can call it that, is to simply be thankful for the time you're able to spend in the woods and appreciate whatever deer you choose to shoot. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

[Hoyt4]

Well said BlackJack and Nowiser. You need to make up your own choices if you want to let one walk or harvest a deer. Once I start caring more about status and the horns on the deer I will stop hunting. I have shot few big bucks and that does not change my mind the next year. If I get that chance at a deer and feel good about shooting it I will no matter how big or small.

[TylerS]

I'm only going to make one post in this thread, but here is my simple solution.

Eliminate APRs, keep the season where it is, and eliminate all party hunting for bucks, regardless of zone type. Simple as that.

Every single person in the entire state can shoot whatever deer tickles their fancy (unless in a lottery area w/ no doe permit). How can anyone possibly complain about this? No more complaining about having to count tines, see spikes, etc. But, once you pull the trigger on an antlered deer, you are done shooting antlered deer. Perfect for those that want to save some small bucks, and for those that "can't eat horns".

I don't like APRs because many people look forward to eating deer all year, have a limited amount of time to hunt, and do want to shoot the first thing they see. Who am I to say that is wrong? I don't like the later season because (and I know this is selfish) I use a canoe to access my hunting area, and the way it was this year, we were already breaking significant ice by the second weekend to get out of camp.

Third weekend I hunted with my old hunting party up by Leech Lake. We got 3 deer, 2 were 1 1/2 year old bucks and one was a doe. Both guys who shot the young bucks also shot young bucks opening weekend. Funny thing was...both had their buck tags left for muzzleloader season when the weekend ended. They went out and found other people to tag their deer so that they could shoot another buck. So their it is. Those two guys will probably end up shooting either 5 or 6 yearling bucks by the time all seasons are over, when it could have been 2 or less if they wanted to keep their tags for a chance at a big boy. How is that fair for anybody?

The no buck party hunting solution just seems so obvious to me, I don't understand what people have against it? If you shoot a monster buck the first day, continue party hunting for does. If you can't shoot does in your area, then become camp cook, grab a shotgun and go grouse hunting, or just sleep in and enjoy the rest of your time off work. Or, better yet, find a kid and take them out hunting....your season has already been a success.

Thats about all I have to say about that. I used to be more passionate about this topic. Now that I found a very large area of public land to hunt with zero pressure, it's become less important. I've implemented my own rules, and in the last 3 years, I've shot the 3 biggest bucks of my life. I have no doubt this success will continue because I know for a fact no young bucks will be shot in this area as long as I'm there.

+1 to NoWiser. I wish they'd implement a program like this in Nodak, too. One buck tag for all seasons. Once you fill it, you're done.

[DaveT]

I'm all for people doing what makes them happy, if a tender young buck makes you happy, shoot it, good for you. I guess the fundamental difference for me is that I don't feel entitled to shoot multiple bucks every year. It's a limited resource that we all pay to participate in and we all should have opportunity to enjoy it. I think guys who shoot more than one buck a year are taking away opportunity from other hunters.

[kern]

Trigger

What is your primary goal? Obviously you can't implement a new management stategy without weighing the pros and cons. Here is a short term solution. Pick one weapon a year. Most of us on here hunt all three seasons so that would limited the chance of shooting to many deer. I think nooteepical put licience numbers up on the last page and I went and look at them as well. Those are the licenses sold and not the actual number of hunters. I bet those figures would drop by a third if you had to choose a season. It also includes management tags so actual hunter probably are around 40000-45000. Its not ideal but that would be a point to look at. We differ a little bit cause I believe you are in a managed zone? and I'm in a lottery so if somehow we get the entire state to at least managed zone it will be next to impossible to implement apr. I'm all for new ideas but at what cost?

[COMMISH]

Blackjack,

vary well put and i totally agree, the problem is that it's to simple for a goverment agency (DNR) to comprehend. I'm not a supporter of APR. a couple of years ago when the DNR did there survey of deer hunters in zone 3 and followed that up with some public meetings to get the publics in put on deer management in zone 3. having hunted zone 3 for almost 40 years at the time i took a great interest in this. i printed out the survey results and carried tham with me for months, i studied every page of it. I went to 2 differant meetings when the time came.(the first meeting and the last)first off there numbers were marginal at best in favor of APR. (46% in favor 43% against + - 2% error) ok it's the "MAJORITY" i can except that.

here's the number that really got me thinking. according to the DNR's survey 92% yes 92% of those surveyed hunted "PRIVATE LAND". heres my question, the DNR will tell how much support there is for APR. if there's all this support and most hunters hunt private land why do we need this to be law? I never got an answer from the DNR or anybody else i asked this question. does anybody have a GOOD answer?

[sticknstring]

I vote to eliminate the cross-tagging of bucks statewide. Who's with me?

[96trigger]

I find myself having to repeat what I have said before, therefor, I am done. After reading lots of these posts, it is very clear that many on here want to stay polarized on this subject. So I will stay on the APR bandwagon for zone 3 and fully support it and oppose any deregulation. I hope when its done and they reevaluate it, that it stays for good.

[Getanet]

Seems odd you hope it stays for good without waiting for the findings of their evaluation. What if it doesn't produce any of the results it was intended to?

Also, this discussion isn't specific to Zone 3. Regulations for that zone are already implemented, I think most of us are talking about state-wide regulations - or at least how those regulations would impact the areas we hunt in.

[Musky Buck]

Can't eat the horns is going to be my new trademark. For me the hardest part is watching my dad quit deer hunting along with 3 of my uncles. That's 4 guys that sat 10 straight years and never saw a shootable buck hunting in many locations, yes luck has a lot to do with it but luck can't help you when there isn't a shootable buck in the section you are hunting. Put in a hundred sits or so and never see a decent buck, they got to hunt the golden years of MN deer hunting so nothing nowaday compares to then. Same reason they all quit duck hunting, there simply are 0 ducks where they once flourished. Same with grouse, same with snowshoe hares. Anyway, I like the original post Trophy Hunter's part, aren't we all in a way that or do you hope for the 65 pound doe fawn to bag opening day? I reiterate the word "decent" forget trophy, we're not even seeing decent bucks which my uncles and dad would be happy to see and maybe get a shot at, forget trophy, we can't get to that stage whatsoever. But I do realize like those who quit it is what it is and it isn't going to improve under the current system, where I'm at the deerland is overpressured severely, the deer are literally scared to be in any open areas after opening day and even then they are running scared so what's around gets nocturnal and that's that. PS. I'm talking farmland country. Next rifle if following the pattern of the past 5 will be the same again, need to break that pattern somehow and what's the solution?

[nonteepical]

You obviously have selective reading, did you read the part that hunters success rates remain the same as before they were in place? What's wrong with that, how does that infringe on your hunting?

[harvey lee]

I vote to eliminate the cross-tagging of bucks statewide. Who's with me?

+1

I in no way see the DNR going to one tag per hunter. They know they woulod lose way too much revenue. Not a bad idea but it woill not fly with the DNR.

All about revenue.

[kern]

I find myself having to repeat what I have said before, therefor, I am done. After reading lots of these posts, it is very clear that many on here want to stay polarized on this subject. So I will stay on the APR bandwagon for zone 3 and fully support it and oppose any deregulation. I hope when its done and they reevaluate it, that it stays for good.

You want to find a solution and I propose one, now your done? I don't get it. I trying to have a conversation with you about options. We obviously disagre and I'm ok with that but I am trying to see where you are coming from to be able to meet in the middle with solutions that both parties give something up.

[Wobbler]

I read this and here is the best solution to me. I posted this in "Are You Satisfied in your Area/Zone". Now I hunt both private and public land and only own 80 acres where no APR is established. While I would like the state to get involved I know they will not. I know that the bucks we pass up could get shot by other hunters next door. I can't stop that. What I can do is try to manage my own situation and what deer I hope to see. I know deer can go miles etc. I hunt in wolf country, in an area nobody lets deer go, and most of the land is public. Basically in a nutshell our hunting party manages our own land and the public land we hunt and we made our own plan on how to manage "Our Deer". I can't manage your land but I can try to do what is best for me. Ask all the 0-7's and 1 for 10's by us in their party's success rate is what they wanted this year. But then again.....when they were 13 for 7 or 18 for 10; 2 years ago not 1 of them thought once what their future deer herd might look like. Reality hit them this year.

"I hunt Area 122. While the rut was late and the weather was not ideal; we did very well considering. 3 for 3 in "shooter" bucks. (Shooter equals 8 points or better or one we see on camera that the rack is not what we want in the herd) For instance I shot a 183 pound 5 pointer that would never be the big racked buck we would ever look for. We had 9 different bucks on trail camera that we knew were on our land. One of the bucks we shot was "not on camera" at all so that was a nice surprise. While we saw only a couple of does I do like it Managed. I love the fact if I see a good sized doe I can shoot it and wait for a "Shooter" buck and not go with the mentality that most have in the area "If it is brown it is down". Lots of people did poorly around us. But we own some of the land we hunt and the rest is public but on our land we have made nice trails, enclosed deer stands and are able to make nice shooting lanes which helps compared to most in that area. Now we are going to put in some little food plots in different spots to help our herd. The deer on our land moved alot.....problem was mostly at night all season. I have a feeling it was that way for many and without cameras we would have thought there was no deer either. The monster buck 2 nights in a row past my deer stand 2 hours after legal shooting hours! 6 cameras and each night had deer on them. I also would like to add we have not taken a doe in 5 years on our land or the public land that surrounds us which in my opinion has increased our buck sightings 2 or 3 fold in the last 5 years during the rut. Just because the DNR tries to manage your area as a sportsman we believe at our camp it is "Our Responsibility" to manage our land and shoot deer that fit our plan. 4 years from now my son will hunt and he will shoot whatever he wants. When he gets older like me I know he will follow our plan because he has seen the last 5 years of bucks we have shot. Just because the last 3 years I have a bonus tag does not mean I have to fill it people need to get beyond that mentality. When camps did that IMHO you shot all the deer up and it takes a few years for them to come back. I would be curious to see if everyone that hunts by me followed our plan instead of shooting everything they see because they have tags how hunting would be for them or have been for them this year. Everyone likes big racks on bucks but they can't get bigger if you shoot them as Spikers and 4's! Ok off my soap box!"

[nonteepical]

Last year my proposal was.an odd even. The odd years open season the even years restrictions. That way some bucks get a pass at least every other year wich is better than nothing.

[Musky Buck]

Time to sell some land, but the problem is no 1 will want it, it is surrounded by huge box stands on all sides except the road, whoever walks it will take note and be gone. The ones surrounding it don't want it as they are already basically hunting it. Since it's a brown down unlimited tags for these people the deer hunting stinks and there's very few deer left, there's so few they basically have moved off to other properties that aren't so extremely pressured. Money is always the issue. Then go back to the all-season tag($75) and give us that pass basically every deer except a big buck a longer season and the gun it down crowd can have a shorter season, it used to work out pretty well in old zone 4 or so I thought. But, we'll see how many years it takes to get back to solid deer numbers again. This will be year 4 that there will be no wintering herd(s) where they once did decade after decade, that tells me a lot about deer numbers. Our area is really in trouble.

[flipper]

One thing to consider is that APR actually causes hunters to cull the very genetic traits out of the deer herd that they consider desirable. If you are in the cattle breeding business and you want long horns then you wouldn't send all your long horned bulls to slaughter, you would instead cull out the short horned bulls.

Flame on.