National Push to Ban Lead Ammo and Fishing Tackle

[NETim]

So all the xrays of dead ducks and other birds that have ingested lead shot isn't scientific?? Who are you trying to B. S.??

The problem is mainly with birds, anything they eat goes into their gizzard to be ground up by the grit (small pebbles and rocks) that they eat. When a bird eats a lead pellet (or bullet) it ends up in their gizzard, where it gets ground up and the bird gets the full affect of the poisonous lead. Thats why it takes very few pellets to kill a bird. If a human or any other mammel eats a lead pellet, it will just pass thru them.

I thought we had addressed that issue long ago? Steel shot when hunting over wetlands... I can buy that.

Now, a total ban? Everywhere? No way. Junk science.

Wait for the smoke to clear, just like global warming. The scam will be unveiled.

[bobbymalone]

Some one please show me evidence that throwing lead around in the environment or dumping carptons of CO2 or whatever else is a good thing? Complain that it's all junk science funded by liberal hippie groups and spread around by msnbc and those detestable bleeding heart liberals with an agenda. at least that's what the nra, fox news, and the repub party says.

Any sort of proposed change from the status quo is labeled as some sort of liberal conspiracy to raise your taxes or in some way cost you more money. Of course the idea of money coming out of your pocket wouldn't bias you and surely your party wouldn't take advantage of spinning that

Keep feeding that two party system and the vote for us because we aren't them mentality

"Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen"

[96trigger]

The eagles that are eating deer carcasses and getting lead poisoning are not helping the big game side of it. I am not for or against it. Just saying it is an issue.

I would hate to see all my relaoding equipment become obsolete because of a new type of metal that would have to be used. Also shoot alot of trap, hate to see $10 boxes of trap loads, of course, we are almost there now.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

The eagles that are eating deer carcasses and getting lead poisoning are not helping the big game side of it. I am not for or against it. Just saying it is an issue.

Why not just pass a law banning eagles from feeding off from deer carcasses?

Problem solved...

[MNice]

This same conversation probable happened in the 60's about cigarettes.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

This same conversation probable happened in the 60's about cigarettes.

That's an interesting point - you don't suppose lead bullets could be turned into a cash cow like tobacco?

[ARNE]

I would like to know where people think lead comes from? It is a mineral that comes from the ground.

[pulleye16]

This same conversation probable happened in the 60's about cigarettes.

And if they find out that lead is that bad then ok, I'll make the change. But We've been eating these animals shot with lead for just as long as cigarettes have been smoked and we seem to be doing just fine. With other animals BESIDES waterfoul, show some proof. I'd love to see that proof on eagles eating deer carcuses and getting lead poisoning...

[SkunkedAgain]

I would like to know where people think lead comes from? It is a mineral that comes from the ground.

...and so do radioactive elements. Were you putting any in your pancakes this morning or planting it in your garden? We (humans) are great at taking our planet's resources and turning them into things that hurt the planet. Is it me shooting off a few rounds in the woods that has drastic effects? Of course not. But all of us over hundreds of years dropping lead all over the place, into our lakes and rivers, into the food chain, does and will have an impact. You don't need junk science experiments or double-blind studies to comprehend this logic.

The reality is that we should all come to solution, instead of one side saying "We're gonna ban everything" and the other side saying "Over my dead body." We all get too emotional over the little things instead of finding solutions.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

But all of us over hundreds of years dropping lead all over the place, into our lakes and rivers, into the food chain, does and will have an impact.

Think of all the lead that was spread around Europe during WWI and WWII. They say lead causes brain damage. Now think of all the liberals in Europe - wonder if there's been any studies on this, or if there's any connection? Just a thought...

[shortfatguy]

Is the cost of lead vs. non-lead shells really going to stop anyone from hunting??? If you go thru 5 boxes of shells pheasant and duck hunting you've had a very good year!! If you go thru 3 boxes of rifle shells you've had some good practice at the range and should have shot your 1-2 deer.

The extra money you spend on non-lead shells, which will keep a known poison out of the environment, is small compared to what most hunters pay for gas, gear, food, dogs, etc.

Lets see... 3 boxes of midrange priced ammo for my 300 wsm about 45 bucks a box. Thats 130$ now if you take lead out of the picture that comes out to probably double that price. So now its $260 for 3 boxes of ammo. I guess you could always buy just on box and never practice with your rifle and just go out and wound a bunch of deer because you cant shoot due to a lack of practice.

[harvey lee]

3 boxes of 300 ammo would last me for many years. I use about 3 shots every fall to check the scope and then off to the deer woods.

[flyfisher03]

Pulleye

I'd love to see that proof on eagles eating deer carcuses and getting lead poisoning...

Maybe a stop to the National Eagle Center in Wabasha is in order. Plenty of proof provided by them of eagles eating carcasses or gut piles with bullets in them.

[NaturesRespect]

Lets see... 3 boxes of midrange priced ammo for my 300 wsm about 45 bucks a box. Thats 130$ now if you take lead out of the picture that comes out to probably double that price. So now its $260 for 3 boxes of ammo. I guess you could always buy just on box and never practice with your rifle and just go out and wound a bunch of deer because you cant shoot due to a lack of practice.

[jeffreyd]

some light reading regarding waterfowl and lead:

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_information/lead_poisoning/index.jsp

http://www.fisheries.org/afs/docs/media_tws.pdf

[psepuncher]

The doctor, William Cornatzer of Bismarck, N.D. -- an avid big-game hunter -- said hunters should reconsider eating any deer or big game shot with lead bullets from high-powered rifles.

Those bullets fragment on impact and can spread lead far beyond the entrance wounds, he said.

"This is very disturbing news that we found," Cornatzer said.

Deer killed with shotgun slugs or muzzleloader slugs shouldn't pose a problem because those slugs don't fragment, he said.

edit to add: most high powerd rifles get a complete pass through. Not much lead left for birds to chew on.

...next

[swamptiger]

Quote:

Poster: flyfisher03

Subject: Re: National Push to Ban Lead Ammo and Fishing Tackle

Pulleye

Originally Posted By: pulleye16

I'd love to see that proof on eagles eating deer carcuses and getting lead poisoning...

Maybe a stop to the National Eagle Center in Wabasha is in order. Plenty of proof provided by them of eagles eating carcasses or gut piles with bullets in them.

Breeding pairs of bald eagles - lower 48 states - 1963 to 2006:

Quote:

Bald Eagle Breeding Pairs - 1963 to 2006

Data Table

Year

Number of Pairs

2006

9789

2005

7066

2000

6471

1999

6404

1998

5748

1997

5295

1996

5094

1995

4712

1994

4449

1993

4015

1992

3749

1991

3399

1990

3035

1989

2680

1988

2475

1987

2238

1986

1875

1984

1757

1981

1188

1974

791

1963

487

Looks even more impressive in graph form. Why such a great recovery if the claims are true?

[NaturesRespect]

The doctor, William Cornatzer of Bismarck, N.D. -- an avid big-game hunter -- said hunters should reconsider eating any deer or big game shot with lead bullets from high-powered rifles.

Those bullets fragment on impact and can spread lead far beyond the entrance wounds, he said.

"This is very disturbing news that we found," Cornatzer said.

Deer killed with shotgun slugs or muzzleloader slugs shouldn't pose a problem because those slugs don't fragment, he said.

edit to add: most high powerd rifles get a complete pass through. Not much lead left for birds to chew on.

...next

weres your proof about shotgun slugs? im the proof about shotgun rifled slugs my buck from last year while butchering it i dug out the slug and all of it was intact however! the smushed 1oz slug had one or two spots were potential lead could have broken off. The penetration from what i can tell looks to be almost more than 12inches because the buck was shot from his left side quartering away, shot was from the mid belly and went thru the lung and vitals all the way up to the front were the heart would be and the slug was in the meat on the right side of the buck..... thats alot of power! he went down right on the shot...

drilled a hole thru the slug and tied it to my license and tag from that buck for memories

[flyfisher03]

I know what the numbers show per bird dieing of lead poisoning isn't very high. However it can and will happen.

[jeffreyd]

i can tell you that hunting elk with my 300wsm and 180 grain bullet does not exit the animal unless it is a shot from 10 yrds. Maybe in MN that is possible but not here in AZ especially hunting elk. I think the information that has been provided, information on various state and federal websites, and many sporting organizations do agree that there are deaths to a number of types of waterfowl and scavenger birds from ingesting lead. I for one would not want to be chewing away on my deer or elk steak and break a tooth on a piece of lead or steel shot. The fact remains there will be folks that hold out not believing what statistics say, and eventually end up being part of the program by default, not by choice. Maybe it wont happen in 5 yrs or 10 but our kids will be the ones setting the limits on what we get to do when we are very old. Bet it happens then.

[swamptiger]

Wikipedia:

Quote:

In 1993, 25 schools throughout New England participated in a roadkill study involving 1,923 animal deaths. By category, the fatalities were:[5]

81% mammals

15% birds

3% reptiles and amphibians

1% indiscernible

Extrapolating this data nationwide, Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People Newspaper estimated that the following animals are being killed by motor vehicles in the United States annually:[6]

41 million squirrels

26 million cats

22 million rats

19 million opossums

15 million raccoons

6 million dogs

350,000 deer

This study may not have considered differences in observability among taxa (i.e. dead raccoons are easier to see than dead frogs[citation needed]), and has not been published in peer-reviewed scientific literature.

This doesn't include insects, frogs, lizards, snakes, etc.. The number of roadkilled deer actually looks low to me, but I don't have any statistics at hand to back it up. Does this mean we should quit driving?

[psepuncher]

weres your proof about shotgun slugs?

I'm a big-game hunter, and have been since I was 13," said Dr. Cornatzer, who X-rayed the ND venison. "I'm eating this, and I fed this to my own children. This is terrible."

Cornatzer said that shotgun slugs and muzzleloader bullets should not be a problem since they don’t fragment on impact with a deer.

--

I'm sure they do somewhat fragment. Not enough to leave a spent stardust trail through the wound channel though.

[psepuncher]

i can tell you that hunting elk with my 300wsm and 180 grain bullet does not exit the animal unless it is a shot from 10 yrds.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

ever wonder about coppr toxicity?

How about nickel toxicity? The coins we carry around in our pockets and use to pay for our big Macs are high in copper & nickel content.

There's a theory about nickel poisoning being responible for the death of the dinosaurs:

Quote:

Theory About Nickel and Death of the Dinosaurs

In the early 1990s, an American astrophysicist named Thomas Wdowiak put forward the theory that nickel contained in the asteroid that struck the Earth 65 million years was responsible for the mass extinction of the dinosaurs. When the asteroid broke down, the resulting soot released into the atmosphere was loaded with nickel. The nickel-laced soot found its way into the soil and the water. The presence of nickel effectively poisoned the vegetation that plant-eating dinosaurs ate, leading to their extinction. Carnivorous dinosaurs, robbed of their food source, were also wiped out over time.

The meteorite in question has been estimated to be approximately 10 km in diameter, and the nickel fallout would have been somewhere between 130 and 1300 ppm (parts per million). The level usually found in soil samples is 15 ppm; at 40 ppm, the nickel concentration is considered toxic.

[NaturesRespect]

sounds to me like everyone who is fighting to keep lead is scared they will end up paying more for ammo if this ban happens..... this is kind of like gas, when gas was like 99cents a gal everyone complained kinda like how i know some who complain about ammo right now, when gas prices rose everyone got scared about how much it will cost to go places and what gas will cost now, well gas prices rose to almost 3 bucks a gal now and were all still buying it and using just as much of it as we were when it was cheap, we adjusted to the change... if lead was banned in ammo and fishing tacle we all will still be buying ammo and tackle, we just have to adjust...

my 2 cents is a lead bb and a steel bb will be left on the ground and they will be there for many years, but the lead bb is more toxic and harmful than the steel bb, my name isnt NATURESRESPECT just because, ill pay the extra cash and have a less harmful metal left behind