Alternate "pointing games?"

[TylerS]

So my GWP will be 11 weeks old tomorrow. We've had him for two weeks now.

I was told by my breeder and several other people that I don't need to worry too much about training him to hunt, just concentrate on obedience (come, heel, woah, fetch, housebreaking, etc.).

So far, I've kept to the plan, but one thing I did for a while was the pointing game. You know the one I'm talking about: pheasant wing affixed to fishing line/pole.

He freaking loves the pointing game. I could do it for hours and he doesn't get bored. Loves it more than all his toys combined.

On that note, he's changed since we started playing the pointing game. When we first started, he would lock up for a solid 15-20 seconds before breaking. That time gradually decreased each time we played. That, and he's gotten much quicker and has caught the wing a few times (big no-no, I know).

Then I went to a local NAVHDA training meeting the other day. Kind of shot the bull with some of the other dog owners with no intention of doing any training (probably next spring for sure). Got to talking with one guy and I mentioned how the pooch used to be a rock solid pointer but started to break earlier as he caught the wing.

He looked me in the eye and said, "never play that game with a pointing dog."

I was kind of taken aback. I've seen the wing/fishing pole game done with pups for as long as I can remember.

So I asked him why not, and he says it teaches them to look for birds with their eyes and not their nose.

... I had to admit, that made a lot of sense ...

So now I'm back to square one. Today on my lunch break, I put some scent on the wing and drug it through the grass in the yard and hit it in a shrub. Then I told the pooch to "get the bird." He eventually found it with his nose, but immediately pounced on it. I didn't let him catch it, of course, and quickly praised him and hid the bird from sight.

I expected he wouldn't point it, but would this be a good practice to continue? Is there anything else you can suggest? I know at 11 weeks I shouldn't expect much, but if I can lay some groundwork and get the desire in him early, maybe it will engrain that hunting drive for years to come.

Any thoughts? Are there other ways to scent train a dog to point?

[rundrave]

you cant train a dog to point....its all instinct and some have a stronger instinct than others, but you may have just over did the wing on string

ditch the wing, and use live birds, the more the better, get that dog on a check cord and start to correct him if he bumps those birds. you should never allow him to catch the bird or in this case the wing.

get a bird launcher, when that dog moves, launch the bird, then go pick up your dog and set it back in the spot where it first stopped. the more times you do it the better and your dog will get it figured out. I wouldnt all be surprised the first time you got him on live birds he stays rock solid. again ditch the wing and get that dog on some live birds

as for the drags it may be good for tracking, but for pointing live birds will be much better. your on the right track by working with the navhda folks, team up with the chapter and keep at it and you will see good results

good luck

[TylerS]

Live birds eh...hmmm...I was worried about that.

Well, I'll do what I can. Living in town I doubt I'll be able to keep pigeons without getting tracked down by some city officials. I'm pretty sure Fargo has a ban on that sort of thing...

[rundrave]

doesnt the navhda group have weekend trainings? Our local NAVHDA chapter usually has training every weekend, and various members offer up their own land for training. It was awesome for me when I first got started and helped both me and my dog a ton.

There are weekly bird orders where we just coordinate with the member hosting the training that weekend and have at it. Its a good time and a great learning experience.

[TylerS]

Yes, they have weekly training. They meet every Tuesday. I went to my first one this week just to check things out. Looked like most of them were working on force fetching. Heard someone ask if so-and-so "had brought those Chukars out like he was talking about?" The other guys said no he hadn't. According to the main guy, next Tuesday is the last training session of the year. Guess I missed the boat! Oh well, maybe the pup's first nose-full of grouse this fall will trip that trigger in his brain.

[311Hemi]

you cant train a dog to point....its all instinct and some have a stronger instinct than others

ditch the wing, and use live birds, the more the better

your on the right track by working with the navhda folks, team up with the chapter and keep at it and you will see good results

I agree, good advice here! If you don't team up with a local club, at least get a good book and read up in training pointers or find someone to work with.

I live in the twin cites and I had 20 chuckar in a pen I built behind my house out of whatever I could find (wood/fence/part of a dog kennel/tarps), it was pretty ghetto but worked. I also had 12 pheasants in there at one point. I don't have a big yard and the neighbors house is probably 15' away. It can be done.

LIVE BIRDS...LIVE BIRDS....LIVE BIRDS!!! It's not easy or cheap, but the more the better!

[870Express]

2nd live birds. Is a hassle but will teach your dog it's manners. Noticed you didn't add "sit" when you were listing commands. Smart man.

[MuleShack]

2nd live birds. Is a hassle but will teach your dog it's manners. Noticed you didn't add "sit" when you were listing commands. Smart man.

Forgive my ignorance, but i'm trying to do some quick study on GSP's because I am picking up a 7 week old male on Saturday. Why would you not list sit?

I've got to find some training books on this breed as I've been told they are different than labs.

[TylerS]

Forgive my ignorance, but i'm trying to do some quick study on GSP's because I am picking up a 7 week old male on Saturday. Why would you not list sit?

I've got to find some training books on this breed as I've been told they are different than labs.

Well, according to my breeder and the NAVHDA training handbook, you should never teach a pointing dog to sit before it learns how to woah. This is because, if the dog learns "sit" and then you try teaching it "woah" it will tend to want to sit when whoad. Can be a very tough habit to break, or so I've heard.

[MuleShack]

Thanks...lots to learn.

[TylerS]

Thanks...lots to learn.

Haha...I'm right there with ya, trust me!

[rmkod]

It is not so much the dog will sit when on whoa. It is more so that if you teach a dog sit first they may default to this when under any pressure. Thus when teaching whoa, if they become confused or feel pressure they may sit. Also if you plan to steady the dog up pressure is usually involved and you don't want the dog to sit on point. This all being said my shorthairs were taught sit at an early age and I haven't ever had a problem.

[870Express]

Right on Tyler. It's not that you can't teach sit, just don't over do it. I did it with my first dog and he would sit whenever any pressure was put on him when on point. rmkod: the dogs are different. But not as different as the way you hunt/train them. Pointing dog trainers and retriever trainers have very differing approaches. I liked the book "training the pointing labrador" for my Brittany because it kind of meets in the middle. Aims to give you the finished retriever/pointing dog.

[setterguy]

Very good advice here. A puppy that young, I would be working on obedience first and foremost. The dog is obviously going to be too young to do any real hunting this fall but let him get out, make plenty of mistakes and get used to the whole deal. The kennel, truck, long drives, other people, other dogs, guns, woods, porcupines, skunks, the whole thing.

The only thing you have to do this fall is to absolutely under no circumstances shoot any bird that isn't pointed. You may not have a very productive season this way but in the long run it was pay off in your dog's pointing manners.

And as far as the sitting command goes, the original pointing breeds "setters" were called setters because they would find game, stop (point) and then actually lay down (set) as to not scare the game away. Even today I have seen some dogs that had a tendency to lie down when stressed on point. A very big no no. So go ahead and teach your dog to sit, its fine. Just don't refer to that command when you are trying to get control of the dog. Or they may learn that when in doubt, sit.

[Setterman]

Setterguy hit the nail on the head. If you can find any land with a few wild birds on it this should help alot. By bumping them birds it helps them figure out location. I would get a good video and find a trainer that would maybe do some sessions with you to help keep you on the right track. I would also avoid game farms with poor flying birds. If you want a great easy to understand training book try this book one of the best I have ever found. [Please read forum policy] He also has a video through Higgin's gundogs.

[Hookmaster]

Why is sitting down on point bad?

[Snag]

Why is sitting down on point bad?

It's not bad, but it's not pretty compared to a dog with a high tail on a staunch point. I saw a tv show with a setter that would lie down on point and it looked just as good to me.

[Setterman]

Setterguy hit the nail on the head. If you can find any land with a few wild birds on it this should help alot. By bumping them birds it helps them figure out location. I would get a good video and find a trainer that would maybe do some sessions with you to help keep you on the right track. I would also avoid game farms with poor flying birds. If you want a great easy to understand training book try this book one of the best I have ever found. [Please read forum policy] He also has a video through Higgin's gundogs.

Go to the first post in the forum and delete the whole thing!

[pointers]

I have been in the pointing dog game for about 20 yrs. the only thing to be doing, like others have said is live birds and that is it just get a few pigeons and a 40 ft check cord. the dog must not catch the bird. ever

[setterguy]

Its harder to see a dog on point if its lying or sitting down. That's why in field trials they are looking for a straight up tail (in pointers and setters). Its not just for aesthetics, its does have a purpose. For example this picture was taken in Kansas hunting cut sorghum. It would be mighty hard to see a dog lying down or even a Brittany on point in this stuff. That's where the high tail comes in. Nothing against Brittnay's .

[gspman]

Put the wing on a string away. Nothing of value comes from it and it often can cause problems that need to be solved with more training. Give the pup a break from it and birds for a couple weeks and then start in with birds only. Do not let it catch a bird. It would be best if you had a remote launcher and when the pup makes the initial scenting of the bird to launch the bird and stop the pup with the check cord.

[TylerS]

Very good advice here. A puppy that young, I would be working on obedience first and foremost. The dog is obviously going to be too young to do any real hunting this fall but let him get out, make plenty of mistakes and get used to the whole deal. The kennel, truck, long drives, other people, other dogs, guns, woods, porcupines, skunks, the whole thing.

[870Express]

"It would be mighty hard to see a dog lying down or even a Brittany on point in this stuff. That's where the high tail comes in. Nothing against Brittnay's ."

Price you pay to have a dog w/o a tail. By "tail" I mean "end table cleaner offer".

Sounds like it's pretty unanimous: live birds. Keep the dog on a check cord and realize it may take a while before he gets it. Get him on some quail for a couple weeks and then try as hard as possible to get him on WILD birds. A dog that gets lazy and bumps wild birds because he's been raised on poor flying birds doesn't make much of a pointing dog. Wild birds = manners on point. It's a pain but that exposure for the first year makes such a difference. Other than that get "here" and "whoa" down. Make "whoa" fun. Other advice: get with an experienced trainer. Doens't need to be professional, plenty of people around willing to give their two cents. I couldn't have done it without help. Pictures please.

[Acemac]

"It would be mighty hard to see a dog lying down or even a Brittany on point in this stuff. That's where the high tail comes in. Nothing against Brittnay's ."

Price you pay to have a dog w/o a tail. By "tail" I mean "end table cleaner offer".

you do know that cover like this is exactly why britts are breed the be without a tail?

[setterguy]

I'm pretty sure there are no dogs that are "bred" with docked tails. Only dogs that have them chopped off when they are young. And yes I'm aware of why its done, but disagree with the practice and stand by my statement that it is much harder to see a dog lying down or a dog without a tail on point in cover such as that. Like I said before, nothing against them or any other tailless breeds. That's why I like setters. They are perfect coming off the lot, no upgrading needed. I personally think a Brittany with a tail looks better anyway. My dogs sometimes get bloody tails, and burs, but there have been numerous times that the upright tail has led me to a dog on point. Here is a picture of a Brit with an undocked tail.